DC Rating Revamp Project (Why 4-B is wrong whether or not it's an upgrade or downgrade)

[Antvasima]

Here

An overview of all Herald level DC Characters' Cosmic Feats

vsbattles.fandom.com

Pre-Flashpoint Superman and DC Feats Analyzed

vsbattles.fandom.com

Pre-Infinite Crisis Superman and DC Feats Analyzed

vsbattles.fandom.com

Thank you. I hope that will be useful, but there was a lot of controversy surrounding FanofRPGs, so I do not know whether or not Impress and Amelia are willing to use the information.

 

[Antvasima]

And we have had Mechagodzilla (Kiryu) who has some large country attack from its Absolute Zero Cannon which uses up 40% of total power reserves for one shot and then every Godzilla Millennium characters scale. So maybe we should be more lenient towards the scaling of DC heralds from Wally.

DC Comics runs on the "Everybody can fight everybody" principle, even if it is not quite as extreme as Marvel Comics in this regard. We definitely cannot scale everybody else to 2-A or Low 1-C from the Flash at his peak.

I think that Amelia and Impress have the right idea in that we have to use individual feats a lot more, rather than blanket scale everybody.

 

[Antvasima]

@The_Impress @Amelia_Lonelyheart

I would appreciate your further input here. Or would you prefer that I close this thread, so you can create a new thread when you are ready?

 

[Hellbeast]

Thank you. I hope that will be useful, but there was a lot of controversy surrounding FanofRPGs, so I do not know whether or not Impress and Amelia are willing to use the information.

I mean if it’s valid we can at least discuss what’s there
This was also in response to LungeFish wanting the blog (I misread it tho lmao)

Yeah. Varied should only be used for those who have canon reasons for varying power. Captain Atom is one of the few with in-canon explaination and reasons. (I need to start fixing him)

Agreed; characters like GL and Ares also work by this (he might need more revisions)

DC Comics runs on the "Everybody can fight everybody" principle, even if it is not quite as extreme as Marvel Comics in this regard. We definitely cannot scale everybody else to 2-A or Low 1-C from the Flash at his peak.

I agree but I think we can use stuff like the RMP to scale the others if we have evidence

I think that Amelia and Impress have the right idea in that we have to use individual feats a lot more, rather than blanket scale everybody.

I do agree with this

 

[Greenshifter]

They had me until "Passive tier 1 fate manipulation"

A lot of people in-verse addressed this already. Dr. Manhattan, Retconn Corps, Superman himself, …

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

There’s another feat: John Stewart surviving Xanshi Solar System exploding in the Cosmic Odyssey

 

[Qawsedf234]

On a later occasion, Superman casually defeated most of his recurring villains, including Doomsday, himself, while using only a weak fraction of his power.

That's not a feat. That's Superman in the Dream World trying to be corrupted by a bishop of Hell or something.

 

[Stefano4444]

There’s another feat: John Stewart surviving Xanshi Solar System exploding in the Cosmic Odyssey

There is also Alan Scott's statement about him having enough power to destroy the entire solar system while he was dying, link here.

 

[Stefano4444]

Well, Superman took the supernova blast while weakened, and breaking the star chains was also implied to not be that hard to him. By the way, can Post Crisis and Post Flashpoint be scaled to each other? Cause there’s Mogo illuminating the universe too then.

That could work, we can use this feat too, where Post-Flashpoint Orion and Metal Golem's clash destroyed a star system.

And if i'm not wrok ,there was a statement about Post Crisis Superman be more powerful than Post-Flashpoint Superman (before merging with the latter).

 

[Qawsedf234]

As for the tier they should end up in, Supergirl has a butt-load of casual Tier 5 stuff that I'll get to calculating today. Here's a list of the Tier 5 stuff I've calculated thus far.

1. Flash attacks Wonder Woman wth the mass of a moon (5-A) (Post-Crisis)
2. Kyle Rainer blows up Moon (5-A) / Donna Troy survives said explosion (5-B) (Post-Crisis)
3. Weakened Superman causes a sunspike (5-B, 5-A, High 5-A) (Post-Crisis)
4. Superman, Wonder Woman, and Martian Manhunter move the Earth (5-B) (Post-Crisis)
5. Mon-El moves a White Dwarf (High 5-A) (Post-Crisis) (likelly unusable)
6. Black Adam and Sinestro move the moon (5-B) (Post-Flashpoint)
7. Weakened Ultraman moves the moon (5-A) (Post-Flashpoint)
8. Superman and Martian Manhunter stop planet sized-ship (5-B) (Post-Flashpoint)

There's also Superman pushing a replica of Krypton, which is a 34g planet that's larger than Jupiter.

That could work, we can use this feat too, where Post-Flashpoint Orion and Metal Golem's clash destroyed a star system.

That links to nothing.

 

[Stefano4444]

That links to nothing.

Fixed.

 

[Confluctor]

And if i'm not wrok ,there was a statement about Post Crisis Superman be more powerful than Post-Flashpoint Superman (before merging with the latter).

Iirc, it was the other way around

 

[Confluctor]

Fixed.

Still nothing.

But that is already linked on Orion's profile if anyone needs it. It's from HAL and Pals #29 I think

 

[Stefano4444]

Still nothing.

The links work from me.

In anycase, the links are from Orion's profile, if you want you can look yourself.

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

When it comes the scaling PC Supes to New 52 Supes, the way I usually see is Clark himself saying that it's harder to do things than before (Lois and Clark #1), meaning that PC Supes > Start of Rebirth. However, in Superman Annual, Swamp Thing states start of Rebirth Superman still gets more sunlight than New 52 did. Not sure if there are any other scales or statements, but this is what I usually see.

Edit: Also how is Alan Scott's Solar System level statement applicable to Superman and other herald-tiers?

 

[Greenshifter]

That's not a feat. That's Superman in the Dream World trying to be corrupted by a bishop of Hell or something.

I’ll see what Nia’s reasons are for counting the feat.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I’ll see what Nia’s reasons are for counting the feat.

Its literally a dream, the demon who did all of this says as much. The entire section is taken from Superman #666, which mostly occurs in Superman's dream.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

Shouldn't a serious, not-holding-back Superman scale to his golden age self considering they clashed with eachother at the point that golden age supes was 2-C, would make a good high-end i think

 

[DaReaperMan]

tier 2 superman

We can hope.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Shouldn't a serious, not-holding-back Superman scale to his golden age self considering they clashed with eachother at the point that golden age supes was 2-C, would make a good high-end i think

I haven't read it in awhile, but doesn't fully serious Superboy and Superman clash wiith Superboy-Prime in Infinite Crisis? Could be usable now I suppose.

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

I haven't read it in awhile, but doesn't fully serious Superboy and Superman clash wiith Superboy-Prime in Infinite Crisis? Could be usable now I suppose.

Yeah, but it's after all get depowered from flying through the red sun. Considering he needs the Solar Suit and all, I'd pretty sure that had more of an effect on SBP than it did the others. Though PC Supes fighting GA Supes is a 2-C feat regardless.

 

[San-Kakarot]

The person that said "Superman holding back by several tiers of magnitudes doesn't make sense". Then you have to ignore of all the instances where Superman touches humans without shattering them or running at human speed, or shaking hands without crusing it etc.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Then you have to ignore of all the instances where Superman touches humans without shattering them or running at human speed, or shaking hands without crusing it etc.

Tier 2 Jimmy Olsen tbh

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Tier 2 Jimmy Olsen tbh

Wouldnt Jimmy be unironically Tier 2 during 52
Anyway, ifi I have enough time, I'll go ahead and calc the Krypton feat.

 

[Greenshifter]

Its literally a dream, the demon who did all of this says as much. The entire section is taken from Superman #666, which mostly occurs in Superman's dream.

Apparently only a small part of the story takes place in a dream.

“The plot is that Superman has a nightmare and wakes up and still thinks he's in a nightmare, so he just goes around causing havoc, but the reason he did this is because he was being corrupted by a Kryptonian demon after purposely weakening his soul and his mind so that he would be brought to the demon after being corrupted by him so that he could defeat him.”

 

[Greenshifter]

Yeah, but it's after all get depowered from flying through the red sun. Considering he needs the Solar Suit and all, I'd pretty sure that had more of an effect on SBP than it did the others. Though PC Supes fighting GA Supes is a 2-C feat regardless.

He still keeps up with him beforehand.

 

[Qawsedf234]

The plot is that Superman has a nightmare and wakes up and still thinks he's in a nightmare, so he just goes around causing havoc, but the reason he did this is because he was being corrupted by a Kryptonian demon after purposely weakening his soul and his mind so that he would be brought to the demon after being corrupted by him so that he could defeat him.

The issue is that the event he's talking about specifically occurs in the Dream, as the demon himself states

The lords loaned Rakkar dark power! Mighty power! To draw you into a corrupting dream! It was not literal, but it damned you still. And now--

It was not literal

Like the stuff in hell was legitimate, but the event you wrote about him defeating his entire enemy cast occurred in a non-literal dream to corrupt Superman's soul. Its not a feat.

 

[Bernkastelll]

The person that said "Superman holding back by several tiers of magnitudes doesn't make sense". Then you have to ignore of all the instances where Superman touches humans without shattering them or running at human speed, or shaking hands without crusing it etc.

And also the fact that Superman has son, well, you get the point

 

[LordTracer]

Bold of you to imply Lois isn’t Tier 4/2

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

I haven't read it in awhile, but doesn't fully serious Superboy and Superman clash wiith Superboy-Prime in Infinite Crisis? Could be usable now I suppose.

Honestly considering even a mildly sundipped superman like the one in rebirth could amp to 2-A that seems pretty consistent

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Honestly considering even a mildly sundipped superman like the one in rebirth could amp to 2-A that seems pretty consistent

As someone else pointed out, they're weakened during the conflict. Howoever, I do not believe they were weakened when Earth-Two Superman fought Superboy Prime, so, not sure.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you. I hope that will be useful, but there was a lot of controversy surrounding FanofRPGs, so I do not know whether or not Impress and Amelia are willing to use the information.

@The_Impress @Amelia_Lonelyheart

I would appreciate your further input here. Or would you prefer that I close this thread, so you can create a new thread when you are ready?

So about this...

 

[Hellbeast]

Shouldn't a serious, not-holding-back Superman scale to his golden age self considering they clashed with eachother at the point that golden age supes was 2-C, would make a good high-end i think

It never occurred to me Tier 2 Superman might be a thing now

Oh Lawd

The person that said "Superman holding back by several tiers of magnitudes doesn't make sense". Then you have to ignore of all the instances where Superman touches humans without shattering them or running at human speed, or shaking hands without crusing it etc.

literally any superhero would get variable for this argument

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

So, is John Stewart’s Xanshi surviving feat any good?

 

[Hellbeast]

So, is John Stewart’s Xanshi surviving feat any good?

I think I saw a calc somewhere at High 4-C if that helps

 

[Antvasima]

@Amelia_Lonelyheart @The_Impress

What do you think that we should do here?

I would personally appreciate if you use all available useful information during your upcoming revisions, even if it comes from somebody that you do not get along with at all.

 

[ItalianGuy1234]

Superman pushing Maggeddon was High 4-C, Supernovae feats are High 4-C as well.

 

[Antvasima]

Do we have the Mageddon feat calculated? Also, wasn't there some controversy regarding the actual size of the machine in question?

 

[ItalianGuy1234]

Do we have the Mageddon feat calculated? Also, wasn't there some controversy regarding the actual size of the machine in question?

The Maggeddon feat calculation was the same one your site used to rate PC Supes at High 4-C years ago.

 

[Stefano4444]

Yeah, but it's after all get depowered from flying through the red sun. Considering he needs the Solar Suit and all, I'd pretty sure that had more of an effect on SBP than it did the others. Though PC Supes fighting GA Supes is a 2-C feat regardless.

To be honest i still feel iffy to have GA Supes at 2-C during that story.

Since powerscaling wise GA and SBP should be comparable when instead SBP was much stronger than him.