DC Rating Revamp Project (Why 4-B is wrong whether or not it's an upgrade or downgrade)

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

I’m also fairly sure League of One mentions Diana can never fight a serious Supes and we probably have references to how he holds back all over the place

Idk I can see Supergirl being useful here and I do recall Gods like Poseidon dabbing on Supes

I do agree we need to scale less people to him tho

So this would be like Diana and such right?

An alternate universe (Flashpoint) Diana survives the Infinite-Mass Kick from Flash, which was calc'd at 5-A, and has 5-B feats herself, as well as being stronger then Donna Troy who has a 5-B feat so...probably.

Serious Supergirl should scale to serious Superman, if not somewhat exceeding him. Which makes her casual Tier 5 feats useful.

 

[Antvasima]

We shouldn't scale them at all. I cannot remember where 2C version of HAL or Kyle had to go ALL OUT against Supes

Yes, agreed.

 

[Antvasima]

As for Green Lanterns, there's this frggin MASSIVE respect thread for the entire Corps. It's old as heck (so old that New 52 wasnt even a thing) but it should help. It has citations but theyre kind of annoying to get to (each scan is named after the issue its from, so you have t download the images to see), so it shoud make researching easier.

Thank you. Is somebody willing to help her out?

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Superman has quite a few of 4-B feats on his profile tho. Like the black hole one is probably legit

 

[Thelastmlg]

It was brought up already, seems it ain't valid because the black hole was probably going to eat the planets overtime.

Also is it possible to calc superman rocking the solar system when fighting darkseid?

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

It was brought up already, seems it ain't valid because the black hole was probably going to eat the planets overtime.

Also is it possible to calc superman rocking the solar system when fighting darkseid?

it probably wouldn't be impressive, shaking the galaxy is only 4-B

 

[Bernkastelll]

Sure

Note: Superman is constantly holding back, to the extent to where he's been subconsciously and instinctively doing it his entire life. He even holds back in situations where it looks like he's trying, struggling, or angry, and he even held back in a race where he stalemated Barry Allen. Superman allows himself to be hurt by attacks so that he can gauge their powers and abilities and figure out ways to defeat them. It wasn't until he trained with Mongul during the events of Our Worlds at War that Superman learned not to hold himself back, and as shown earlier, he's stated he only ever went all out against Doomsday. On a later occasion, Superman casually defeated most of his recurring villains, including Doomsday, himself, while using only a weak fraction of his power.

Shouldnt Superman have a ''likely higher'' in his tier then?

 

[Yar_R_agi_7k]

1. Kyle Rainer blows up Moon (5-A) / Donna Troy survives said explosion (5-B) (Post-Crisis)

a little question is it a satellite of another planet over there? So is it really correct to take the same as the Moon?

 

[LordTracer]

it probably wouldn't be impressive, shaking the galaxy is only 4-B

Iirc, shaking the solar system has been calced at 5-A before.

 

[Thelastmlg]

Yeah it was directed towards the lower tier

 

[Teezar]

Shouldnt Superman have a ''likely higher'' in his tier then?

Varies seems better to me overall when it comes to supes

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

a little question is it a satellite of another planet over there? So is it really correct to take the same as the Moon?

No, that's just debris. My fault for not linking the entire feat.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

It was brought up already, seems it ain't valid because the black hole was probably going to eat the planets overtime.

Also is it possible to calc superman rocking the solar system when fighting darkseid?

That was calced at 5-A iirc

 

[Firestorm808]

Thank you. Is somebody willing to help her out?

I've already gone through that thread and added the feats to my timeline. IIRC, I logged everything down.

 

[Firestorm808]

Could you tell them for the Black Hole feat that I reread the story? Yes, it destroys solar systems over time, but that is not what Captain Atom was referring to. That wasn't revealed until after the nature of the Black Hole/Mnenom was shown to the JL. At the time, Captain Atom said that he meant "goodbye solar system" as though it was a normal black hole being able to do it. That means they put Superman to the task of doing that as though they believed he could handle a black hole that somehow can destroy a solar system through a timeframe and means they never specified. We know by basic science a dust-sized black hole couldn't destroy a solar system. We also know the reality that it wouldn't instantly destroy the solar system in the first place, that it was overtime, but the JLA didn't yet know that and assumed Superman could stop a solar system-destroying black hole. I personally can take that as CIS/PIS potentially, and the fact is the black hole, in reality, wasn't solar system level, and yet its girth and gravitational pull was already straining and crushing Superman down even before it started unleashing psychic attacks, so CIS/PIS makes the most sense.
Also, I calculated the rocking solar system feat, it was 5-A

JLA Tier 4 Feats Analyses and Calculations

vsbattles.fandom.com

Also, the reason Superman keeps up in cosmic events is passive tier 1 fate manipulation/plot shielding. Other characters might be more powerful than him on paper, but the plot bends to Superman for them to pull some PIS/CIS and lower their guard or let themselves get outsmarted. This is how he keeps up with technically much more powerful characters like Kyle, Hal, Jon, and Wally. That's just my opinion, however.

Holding a black hole that is 4-B will at most be high 4-C by such extreme wank that the black hole would have made borderline comparable to that of the Milky Way Galaxy.

Amelia was sent a more complete message to post.

 

[Jasonsith]

Should I be alerted for which feats remain unattended? Like unevaluated or uncalculated?

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

They had me until "Passive tier 1 fate manipulation"

 

[DaReaperMan]

They had me until "Passive tier 1 fate manipulation"

There is a guy with passive High 1-A plot manipulation... what's so farfetched?

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

There is a guy with passive High 1-A plot manipulation... what's so farfetched?

Gilgamesh was actually made to have that ability in mind. Superman having plot manipulation isn't something that has ever actually been addressed beyond exceptionally metaphorical statements on the same level of accuracy as putting minecraft players at 8D because of the end poem.

 

[Firestorm808]

Here's the adjusted message:

For the Black Hole feat, I reread the story Yes, it destroys solar systems over time, we literally see that being the case in the beginning of the comic. However, that is not what Captain Atom was referring to. That wasn't revealed to the JL until after the nature of the Black Hole/Mnenom was unveiled. At the time Captain Atom said that he meant "goodbye solar system" as though it was a normal black hole being able to do it. That means they put Superman to the task of doing that as though they believed he could handle a black hole that somehow can destroy a solar system through a timeframe and means they never specified. We know by basic science a dust-sized black hole couldn't destroy a solar system, because a dust-sized black hole would weigh about as much as a small planet (Here is the calc https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...Holds_a_Miniature_Black_Hole_.28March_2003.29), and on that basis alone we could potentially disqualify Captain Atom's word. Furthermore, we also know the reality that it wouldn't instantly destroy the solar system in the first place and that in reality, it would be destroying it planet by planet, but the JLA didn't yet know that and assumed Superman could stop a naturally occurring 4-B black hole. However, this can be seen as CIS/PIS because, in hindsight, we know the black hole isn't even solar system level anyways and yet its girth and gravitational pull were already straining and crushing Superman down even before it started unleashing psychic attacks. This means he was struggling with a 5-A to 4-C Black Hole, not a 4-B one, contradicting what characters implicitly believed Superman would be capable of.

Actually, in fact, how would Superman holding a black hole gives him 4-B? He isn't destroying it, just holding its mass and gravity to the best he can. Does Atom mean it would destroy the solar system if it somehow exploded? Well with mass-energy of 22.77 Foe, that would put a black hole at a mass of 2.53350418e28 kilograms which going back to my calculation prior to plugging in the mass would net 2e28 joules (High 6-A) to hold. Gravity waves are light speed, even by basic logic it should take a few hours to have its gravity reach the whole solar system, but let's ignore that and assume Captain Atom assumed the black hole had enough gravity to put enough pressure to destroy Neptune (Mass of Neptune * its gravity from 29.603330 AU away). Using this calculator, I get that giving the black hole a mass of 1646957 suns (2.60946805e36 joules or 5-A if you ask) which then inputting back and assuming Superman is 100 KG and the device holding the black hole is 1 cm in size, would make him endure 2.186366e29 newtons force, a lot of force, but not remotely solar system level. So by no means is holding this black hole going to even result in 4-B even if it can destroy the solar system.

As for the Solar System rocking feat, here is the calc https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U....22Rock_the_Solar_System_.28November_2007.29; it is not 4-B.

 

[Antvasima]

Gilgamesh was actually made to have that ability in mind. Superman having plot manipulation isn't something that has ever actually been addressed beyond exceptionally metaphorical statements on the same level of accuracy as putting minecraft players at 8D because of the end poem.

I think that it was mentioned outright in the Doomsday Clock storyline that the entire DC multiverse revolves around and transforms due to changes to Superman.

After Death Metal the editorial department changed that to Wonder Woman, but nevertheless.

 

[Teezar]

Why was hellbeast removed.
Something like plot armour should be added on this wiki, pretty sure ichigo and superman will be high into it.

 

[Antvasima]

Why was hellbeast removed.

What do you mean?

Something like plot armour should be added on this wiki, pretty sure ichigo and superman will be high into it.

We could only use it if it is official, such as with Gilgamesh of The Unwritten.

 

[Teezar]

What do you mean?

Saw another hellbeast with a stroke on his/her name on another thread.

 

[Antvasima]

Saw another hellbeast with a stroke on his/her name on another thread.

Okay.

Anyway, Amelia and Impress, are you willing to accept the above help from FanofRPGs, despite that you have a bad history with him?

 

[Jasonsith]

Shouldnt Superman have a ''likely higher'' in his tier then?

likely far higher I would call.

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I need more time to evaluate on some of the other feats. I will give official replies on blogs, or I will create one myself should needs arise

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Or... would there be actually more differentiation against every Justice League characters? Such that some characters will stick to far higher or far lower feats depending on the case?
As we are revamping the feat yields and whom scaled from those.

 

[The_Impress]

If it's possibly can you paraphrase Maddie's statements?

I am greatly annoyed as is by this ban-bypassing, least you could do is at least TRY to not make it that apparent.

 

[Antvasima]

FanofRPGs is still banned. He is just providing Firestorm808 with useful information, which is fine with me at least.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

What about Captain Marvel punching a monster into a black hole?

 

[Jasonsith]

What about Captain Marvel punching a monster into a black hole?

I am reevaluating it with other calculations.
One site says 97 FOE while another says half 4-B

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

I am reevaluating it with other calculations.
One site says 97 FOE while another says half 4-B

That’s still support for 4-B, and Antvasima said something about Green Lantern’s specifically being High 4-C feat. IMP is a pretty blatant feat, we shouldn’t just write it off but try to find support for it. There’s Superman tanking 50 supernovas, him breaking chains that bound stars across interstellar distances, dying Alan Scott being capable of destroying solar system, etc.

 

[Jasonsith]

That’s still support for 4-B, and Antvasima said something about Green Lantern’s specifically being High 4-C feat. IMP is a pretty blatant feat, we shouldn’t just write it off but try to find support for it. There’s Superman tanking 50 supernovas, him breaking chains that bound stars across interstellar distances, dying Alan Scott being capable of destroying solar system, etc.

But then this is performed by a Superman who held back at different degrees at different times.

Everyone on the VS sites want somebody more consistent.

Also I myself believe that the IMP should still stay at this range.

And we have had Mechagodzilla (Kiryu) who has some large country attack from its Absolute Zero Cannon which uses up 40% of total power reserves for one shot and then every Godzilla Millennium characters scale. So maybe we should be more lenient towards the scaling of DC heralds from Wally.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

But then this is performed by a Superman who held back at different degrees at different times.

Everyone on the VS sites want somebody more consistent.

Well, Superman took the supernova blast while weakened, and breaking the star chains was also implied to not be that hard to him. By the way, can Post Crisis and Post Flashpoint be scaled to each other? Cause there’s Mogo illuminating the universe too then.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Also, sorry for going a little off topic, I just don’t know where to find it. Could anyone please link me firestorm’s tier 2 DC debunks?

 

[Hellbeast]

Why was hellbeast removed.

The ****; I didn’t even get notifications for this

 

[Hellbeast]

Here

An overview of all Herald level DC Characters' Cosmic Feats

vsbattles.fandom.com

Pre-Flashpoint Superman and DC Feats Analyzed

vsbattles.fandom.com

Pre-Infinite Crisis Superman and DC Feats Analyzed

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Teezar]

But then this is performed by a Superman who held back at different degrees at different times.

Everyone on the VS sites want somebody more consistent.

That's why I've been saying superman should just be written as varies or unknown . Cause his PL fluctuates based on the story.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

That's why I've been saying superman should just be written as varies or unknown . Cause his PL fluctuates based on the story.

It’s more like he just holds back a lot, not PL fluctuating.

 

[KLOL506]

Also is it possible to calc superman rocking the solar system when fighting darkseid?

Shaking the solar system IIRC wields only 5-A results.

 

[Confluctor]

Yeah. Varied should only be used for those who have canon reasons for varying power. Captain Atom is one of the few with in-canon explaination and reasons. (I need to start fixing him)