DC Rating Revamp Project (Why 4-B is wrong whether or not it's an upgrade or downgrade)

[Teezar]

Tbh,everyone made good points. And all are very meaningful ways in scaling them tbh.
You all are good

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

I finally actually try to do something to this verse that isn't just "haha low 2-C" and this is the thanks i get

 

[Hellbeast]

Yeah i am not 100% sure myself, just an idea ATM until we figure out something more fitting.

Maybe "5A to 4B". We can drop the peak thing.

Honestly I just hate the idea holding back means that you automatically have a power level that varies in order of magnitude

I just don’t think holding back should mean more then you just scale above who you’re fighting

Plus it just looks messy imo

Also I found some scans that I’ll send through after work tonight which could help us out

 

[Confluctor]

Maybe so, but it's such an integral part of the character. We do need to mention that he holds back most of the time and that affects his fights. Plus the scan of lex posted above. Definitely need to have a tier below 4B. Because he only operates at 4B once in a while. Whereas 5A (or lower) is a bit more common...

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

Ant told me when I linked this thread to him that grant morrison consistently treated lanterns as supernova level, so that's a thing

 

[Firestorm808]

@Antvasima @The_Impress

Similar to the last thread, I would like to ask you and the other staff if we can remove the Synthesized black hole feat to justify 4-B due to the context of the comic.

• JLA Vol 1 #77 | March 2003
  • A synthesized black hole no bigger than a speck of dust was made and named Mnemom
    • https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Mnemon_(New_Earth)
    • Mnemon itself began as a synthetic life-form created by an unknown being that believed the purest music was that of memories, thus Mnemon was designed specifically to collect memories.
    • However, Mnemon soon developed the typical qualities of a supervillain, such as power-lust - to the point it went insane and stole the memories of its creator and his entire world before destroying the said world.
    • The crazed Mnemon then became a cosmic threat, traveling from world to world stealing the memories of entire civilizations before destroying their worlds and wiping out their species.
  • Superman holds the synthesized black hole in his hands.
  • According to the Atom, if the black hole escaped the magnetic field, it would be "good-bye solar system"
  • According to Superman, the gravitational force feels like it's going to rip his hands off.
  • Superman and Green Lantern worked together to create a strong enough magnetic field to hold the gravity.

With these statements in mind, had Superman let go of Mnemom, it would have completed the memory stealing of Earth before destroying Earth with its gravity. It would then move onto the next planet and so on, eventually destroying the solar system.

 

[Antvasima]

Firestorm808:

That seems uncontroversial to me. However, you likely need a footnote in the Superman page about both this and the feat you removed from the other thread.

 

[Firestorm808]

Firestorm808:

That seems uncontroversial to me. However, you likely need a footnote in the Superman page about both this and the feat you removed from the other thread.

Ah, yeah. Forgot to add the note for the Void Hound. Can you unlock it again?

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Tell me here when you are done.

 

[Teezar]

Hellbeast and 2beboh proposal makes sense to me.

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

Haven't read the comic in a while, so I'm mixed on the Black Hole being 4-B. However, wasn't Superman only containing the energy leaking out, rather than the whole thing? Like, what Superman was doing was stopping the Black Hole from leaving the Magnetic field, and while he says some of it had leaked out, not all of it had, so I don't think he would scale regardless.

 

[Hellbeast]

I finally actually try to do something to this verse that isn't just "haha low 2-C" and this is the thanks i get

I appreciate your work bby

Maybe so, but it's such an integral part of the character. We do need to mention that he holds back most of the time and that affects his fights. Plus the scan of lex posted above. Definitely need to have a tier below 4B. Because he only operates at 4B once in a while. Whereas 5A (or lower) is a bit more common...

it is; that’s why I’m saying that we don’t scale everyone and their mother to Supes

The thing is while that scan’s there and cool, I can’t recall it being mentioned beyond there and it seems to be a hypothesis of Luthor’s regarding Supes rather then outright an explanation that people ran with in the same way mindset is key to Sentry and Gladiator

To my understanding we're looking at planetary to Large Star here

 

[Antvasima]

I finally actually try to do something to this verse that isn't just "haha low 2-C" and this is the thanks i get

Maybe you can help Impress and Amelia with their revision?

Ant told me when I linked this thread to him that grant morrison consistently treated lanterns as supernova level, so that's a thing

Well, during the DC 1,000,000 event, Kyle Rayner contained a supernova through extreme exertion, and in Morrison's recent Hal Jordan GL run, right before Hal was stuck inside of his ring, I think that his ring explicitly exerted a Joule output comparable to a supernova. It is best if somebody checks to confirm though.

 

[Confluctor]

As long as we include a rating below 4B, it's cool with me.

 

[Greenshifter]

Superman does hold back a lot, but keep in mind that includes his 4-B feats as well. There’s even a statement that the only time he stopped holding back is against Doomsday, who he later casually dispatches alongside a lot of his other villains. There are also other statements of him not holding back as much such as against Black Adam, so putting Supes as the only leaguer to be 4-B (alongside Green Lantern) due to holding back isn’t really fair considering there are times he holds back less against League-level opponents than when performing 4-B feats.

 

[Hellbeast]

I'm not saying he's the only Leaguer at that level; I'm saying that not everyone is

I know MMH has a ton of statements for relativitity to Supes and Adam/Shazam shouldn't be far off

 

[Confluctor]

But even when fighting against league tier villain, most of them are 4b anyway.

So that's why I believe holding back should be noted somewhere on his profile.

Edit: obviously not in the tier section, but can be done somewhere else in the profile. Probably ap section? Or maybe notes?

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

IMP is specifically NOT the hardest Wally ever punched as he can go up to tier 1. WW numerously took Zoom’s IMPs, Zoom himself took the specific 4-B IMP and Superman and the likes can easily damage him

 

[Greenshifter]

Yeah I mean it might have been the hardest he ever punched up to that point, but one comic later he was 2-C. So it clearly isn’t a limit for anyone.

 

[Greenshifter]

I'm not saying he's the only Leaguer at that level; I'm saying that not everyone is

I doubt it, most of them have some ridiculous feat here or there and can make other members of the league bleed or fight against them for a prolonged amount of time. The scaling probably goes somewhat like this: 4-B RMP > speedsters (in dura) = holding back Superman = weaker leaguers < stronger leaguers = semi-holding back Superman << serious Superman

 

[Hellbeast]

But even when fighting against league tier villain, most of them are 4b anyway.

So that's why I believe holding back should be noted somewhere on his profile.

Edit: obviously not in the tier section, but can be done somewhere else in the profile. Probably ap section? Or maybe notes?

Mybe a note?

 

[Greenshifter]

Sure

Note: Superman is constantly holding back, to the extent to where he's been subconsciously and instinctively doing it his entire life. He even holds back in situations where it looks like he's trying, struggling, or angry, and he even held back in a race where he stalemated Barry Allen. Superman allows himself to be hurt by attacks so that he can gauge their powers and abilities and figure out ways to defeat them. It wasn't until he trained with Mongul during the events of Our Worlds at War that Superman learned not to hold himself back, and as shown earlier, he's stated he only ever went all out against Doomsday. On a later occasion, Superman casually defeated most of his recurring villains, including Doomsday, himself, while using only a weak fraction of his power.

 

[Thelastmlg]

isn't that directly from niarobi's superman profile

 

[Greenshifter]

Yeah, I better ask permission soon before he slaps me.

But you know what they say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

[The_Impress]

Snip

At the end of the day, let me elaborate my problem with 4-B DC, it's not consistent.

Genuinely speaking DC's consistency for its higher end feats is in tier 5 range, and if we try to accommodate context it leans towards tier 2.

We're replacing a single feat holding up this tier, with another singular feat to hold it up.

This is biding time and nothing productive, I'd rather we get more than a singular feat to let 4-B be a thing.

 

[Greenshifter]

I can agree to that. That said there's more than one 4-B feat that can be used. However tier 5 or tier 2 might indeed be more consistent.

 

[The_Impress]

Given the planned revision to acknowledge holding back in the future, I'd support the tier 5 end more for now

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

I was actually planning on doing something like this later, so I apologize for not replying sooner.

Anyway. (where do I even start) like Marvel, DC has a buttload of statements and demonstrations of characters holding back, like Marvel. Everyone from Superman to even Red Hood have statements about not using the full extent of their strength, speed, or powers given the scenario, which often involves fighting supervillans. Heres an old blog I was writing for it, but I have not updated it in quite awhile.

As for the tier they should end up in, Supergirl has a butt-load of casual Tier 5 stuff that I'll get to calculating today. Here's a list of the Tier 5 stuff I've calculated thus far.

1. Flash attacks Wonder Woman wth the mass of a moon (5-A) (Post-Crisis)
2. Kyle Rainer blows up Moon (5-A) / Donna Troy survives said explosion (5-B) (Post-Crisis)
3. Weakened Superman causes a sunspike (5-B, 5-A, High 5-A) (Post-Crisis)
4. Superman, Wonder Woman, and Martian Manhunter move the Earth (5-B) (Post-Crisis)
5. Mon-El moves a White Dwarf (High 5-A) (Post-Crisis) (likelly unusable)
6. Black Adam and Sinestro move the moon (5-B) (Post-Flashpoint)
7. Weakened Ultraman moves the moon (5-A) (Post-Flashpoint)
8. Superman and Martian Manhunter stop planet sized-ship (5-B) (Post-Flashpoint)

Some stuff I haven't calced is Supergirl cracking the planet, Supergirl destroying a moon by accident, some earthquake feats in Post-Rebirth, Martian Manhunter destroying a moon, and Superman's infamous Apokolips durability feat. There's aso supposedly Tier 5 stuff for Thanagarians, but I'm not sure what the source is.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Amelia makes sense. Thank you for helping out.

What about the two High 4-C Green Lantern feats that I mentioned above?

 

[Confluctor]

Lanterns varies up to 4B, so them having lower tiers is just fine.

We still haven't updated their profiles, have we? Pretty much everyone agreed to it on previous thread. 2c never got concluded (or I might have missed it)

 

[Antvasima]

Well, Morrison's portrayed maximum level for them is explicitly High 4-C. Geoff Johns' maximum level for them may be Low 2-C or so. Different writers have different interpretations, so the issue turns convoluted.

@Firestorm808

Would you be willing to help out here please?

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

I think Supes' feat of surviving a portion of the 50 supernovae was quantified at High 4-C, and I also recall a calc for him dragging Mageddon coming out to High 4-C. Would those 2 plus the Green Lantern ones give a High 4-C high-end, or would they need more feats?

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

To eloborate on my previous post, VERY few characters should scale to Superman when he's serious. Superman's no-killing policy extends to pretty much every intelligent lifeform he's come across. Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow? had Superman retire from heroism after he killed Mr. Mxyzptlk. While this is an Elseworld, it has been confirmed by Moore to be the classic Superman in character and abilities, as it was supposed to be the "final adventure" of Superman prior to COIE.

Furthermore, it's mentioned in the blog above, but to further the point of the above, Pre-Crisis Supergirl is utterly terrified of what she can do with the full extent of her power and thus holds back. (Supergirl Vol 4 79)

Two more examples of why scaling to Superman is a bad idea, for all major continuities. In The Death of Superman, Doomsday utterly tramples heavy-hitters in the JLA, including Guy Gardner, who admitted he "never had a chance" against him. Maxima does manage to send him flying a few times, but it seems to be more catching him off guard so...take from that what you will. To build on the Guy Gardner example, in Action Comics Annual 3, Superman effortlessly defeated Guy Gardner while getting serious. It should be mentioned that this was apart of the Armageddon 2001 event, which is of weird canonicity, as it's all supposed to be alternate-futures based off the main continuity. I still think it should be used in consideration because it's still supposed to be Superman's 'canon' personality and abilities and this is still very much New Earth, just a slightly different timeline on it.

Last example is in the Post-Rebirth storyline, Action Comics 984 where Superman ragdolls Eradicator and Cyborg Superman while getting somewhat serious.

So, we probably shound't scale dudes to Kryptonians.

Edit: Except we can probably use Red-Sun weakened Superman as a basis for people wh consistently fight him.

 

[Greenshifter]

Depends, we could figure out how serious they are during certain feats. Also I think using a pretty casual Supes as a way to further the scaling rather than base it off of him should definitely work, if necessary.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, but in that case a serious Superman should probably scale to Morrison's version of the Green Lanterns at least. Scaling him to Johns' Low 2-C version of Hal Jordan seems exaggerated though.

 

[Confluctor]

So, we probably shound't scale dudes to Kryptonians.

Couldn't agree more. The scaling chain ATM goes on forever and leads back to Superman.

 

[Confluctor]

Scaling him to Johns' Low 2-C version of Hal Jordan seems exaggerated though.

We shouldn't scale them at all. I cannot remember where 2C version of HAL or Kyle had to go ALL OUT against Supes

 

[Greenshifter]

Okay, but in that case a serious Superman should probably scale to Morrison's version of the Green Lanterns at least. Scaling him to Johns' Low 2-C version of Hal Jordan seems exaggerated though.

Tbf peak Green Lanterns are probably way above even a serious Supes due to the varying power similar to Flash (read: they have feats and scaling above even low 2-C). I'd only use Low 2-C Green Lantern feats as supporting evidence instead unless we can figure out how emotional they are during those feats vs when fighting league-level opponents.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

As for Green Lanterns, there's this frggin MASSIVE respect thread for the entire Corps. It's old as heck (so old that New 52 wasnt even a thing) but it should help. It has citations but theyre kind of annoying to get to (each scan is named after the issue its from, so you have t download the images to see), so it shoud make researching easier.

 

[Hellbeast]

To eloborate on my previous post, VERY few characters should scale to Superman when he's serious. Superman's no-killing policy extends to pretty much every intelligent lifeform he's come across. Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow? had Superman retire from heroism after he killed Mr. Mxyzptlk. While this is an Elseworld, it has been confirmed by Moore to be the classic Superman in character and abilities, as it was supposed to be the "final adventure" of Superman prior to COIE.

Furthermore, it's mentioned in the blog above, but to further the point of the above, Pre-Crisis Supergirl is utterly terrified of what she can do with the full extent of her power and thus holds back. (Supergirl Vol 4 79)

Two more examples of why scaling to Superman is a bad idea, for all major continuities. In The Death of Superman, Doomsday utterly tramples heavy-hitters in the JLA, including Guy Gardner, who admitted he "never had a chance" against him. Maxima does manage to send him flying a few times, but it seems to be more catching him off guard so...take from that what you will. To build on the Guy Gardner example, in Action Comics Annual 3, Superman effortlessly defeated Guy Gardner while getting serious. It should be mentioned that this was apart of the Armageddon 2001 event, which is of weird canonicity, as it's all supposed to be alternate-futures based off the main continuity. I still think it should be used in consideration because it's still supposed to be Superman's 'canon' personality and abilities and this is still very much New Earth, just a slightly different timeline on it.

I’m also fairly sure League of One mentions Diana can never fight a serious Supes and we probably have references to how he holds back all over the place

Last example is in the Post-Rebirth storyline, Action Comics 984 where Superman ragdolls Eradicator and Cyborg Superman while getting somewhat serious.

So, we probably shound't scale dudes to Kryptonian

Idk I can see Supergirl being useful here and I do recall Gods like Poseidon dabbing on Supes

I do agree we need to scale less people to him tho

Edit: Except we can probably use Red-Sun weakened Superman as a basis for people wh consistently fight him.

So this would be like Diana and such right?