DC Comics: The Light of Creation/The Great Darkness/The Presence (Vertigo) - Clean-up

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

The Presence, the Source, and Monitor-Mind The Overvoid are currently considered to be the same entity in DC's Crisis Cosmology, but this was applied rather sloppily after the cosmology split was accepted: only the tiers were changed for the longest time, and the Presence, which was supposed to be split between the Crisis and Vertigo cosmologies, was only recently properly updated. To remedy this, I propose that we merge the three into one profile for the Light of Creation, which they are all manifestations of, and leave the Presence from Vertigo with a separate profile. I also updated the Great Darkness's profile accordingly by cleaning up references to other cosmologies.

IdiosyncraticLawyer/Sandbox

vsbattles.fandom.com

These are the revised profiles. Note that the contents are rather barebones by my standards - I didn't do any further research into making these profiles more comprehensive, only weaved what's currently accepted into a better-formatted shape. I cut all the abilities lacking justifications that I couldn't justify off the top of my head. I added a few justifications for those I could, as well as a few new powers with justifications. I also cut the Vertigo Presence's abilities from DeMatteis's Divine Presence, who should get a new profile soon under the new tiering system and thus wasn't included in this CRT. Abilities that currently scale between different cosmologies on other profiles related to this will also be cut.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

@Antvasima @Deagonx @Eficiente @Elizio33 @Emirp sumitpo @Firestorm808 @LuciferX @PrinceStories @ProfectusInfinity @Qawsedf234 @Ultima_Reality @VeryGoofyToddler

 

[Antvasima]

I will wait to see what the other pinged members here think.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

It’s not bad but I was never a fan of merging the three for obvious reasons. Firstly, the “Presence” rarely ever mention by name especially how he’s treated within different canons:

Grant Morrison work on JLA confirms he’s more akin to just a creator entity rather than anything. Even if we discount JLA, we still could consider Final Crisis: Revelations where he is mentioned to be the creator of Heaven and Earth ie Creation ex nihilo and which the Lucifer series also attested with the same claim that God created everything from the Void, so that would be more akin to Creation ex deo which doesn’t even line up. He created Creation out of “himself?” The Overvoid was meant to be the “God” of his Cosmology with the Source being akin to it. This bars another problem.

In Snyder Cosmology, the Void isn’t a sentient cosmic mind with the Multiverse growing. Rather, just an endless expanse of space that teems with life. Apparently, you can “rent from it” ie Perpetua, be beyond it ie the Banks of Creation, and a hierarchy existing in it ie Unseen Council. So, it’s just a “corrosive” force of nature beyond material Creation, nothing like Morrison idea of a supreme Void that can be called God from which Creation is nothing but infinitesimal to it. This comes another problem.

Snyder treated the Overvoid as just some regular Void nothing special to it, and Williamson makes it more complicated. Apparently, the Overvoid isn’t eternal or the first very thing, apparently the Darkness precedes it and the non-dual Void apparently is “Light” akin to “Darkness.” Which makes no sense in the context of Morrison. This also makes no sense since the “Source” came from the Dark. According to Snyder, the Source was supreme and eternal. That the Presence was a personal manifestation, more so an emanation of it, that nothing exists outside the Source, in any way. Thorne literally claims the Source produce the Darkness despite the story kind depicting a different story, and Snyder claim can’t be correct that the Source is “supreme” if it’s matched.

Then you got the obvious caveat: the Presence. The Presence has always taken aspect and manifestation. In JSA, apparently the Darkness treated into the Shadowlands, the same “primordial shadow” the exact description of the Darkness when the Presence said “let there be light” as Incarnate apparently told us the Light grew from being imperceptible in the Darkness as it’s mentioned the Light was created, not naturally formed. Now, you may question “when did the comics mention this?” Obviously, JSA did but let’s pretend it didn’t. I talked to Imaginary Axis(who follows me on Twitter and we had some chat). Apparently, he never asked and it’s never been directly stated in the comics but the Hands were created by the Source, as something don't need a direct explanation. Which comes to my next point, in the DC Greatest Events, it was claimed that the Presence is the fountainhead that exists beyond the Source. In Swamp Thing #75 God exist beyond all opposite and created the Light and Darkness as nothing more than just dualistic concepts in the Marcoverse as there are things beyond the two, even more fundamental, and that same God exist beyond all those levels where he is one with the Void, eternal and living in quintessenal perfection that gave birth to all things.

So, I never liked the “theory” because Morrison never claimed that “God” was even the Presence. His story never supported it, he was giving analogies of different names to the Overvoid, which in several interview he call God which can be interchangeable with “Void” and not the Presence.

Snyder denotes the Overvoid as just some space, not sentient, not God, not anything but just lacking material. Williamson apparently believes that the Darkness is the eternal Void, and the Overvoid is nothing but the hue of perfect light. The Presence has never been mentioned directly other than a Doomsday Special which they call him “God.” Yeah, so there’s so much mess between interpretation.

Like @Elizio33 mentioned earlier. I see the Presence as sitting at the top, at least in his most purest form. With the Source being the source of creative potential that divinity and embodies all life. The Overvoid as just an endless space from which the Multiverses comes about and could be used interchangeably with newer terms like Greater Omniverse or the “Infinite.” The Darkness being the eternal background from which all things comes from. I, personally, think they should all just have different profile with different abilities based on what was seen, not some fan theories claiming they’re the same thing because the stories don’t line with it.

Plus, ask yourself this, how many stories was told of the Presence creating the “Light.” The Light that became Creation and is embodied Creation. That logically makes no sense and that doesn’t sit right with me and the amount of indirect and direct statement that has been made that “God made the light.” DC editorial literally claim they mainly treat the Presence as would the Judeo-Christian view and those literally put him as maker of the “Light.” Yeah, he can shine as bright as the concept of Light, itself, but making him bound to duality is something that I don’t think any writer intended. Morrison never intended Overvoid to be dual, Snyder never intended the Source to be dual, etc…

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

It’s not bad but I was never a fan of merging the three for obvious reasons. Firstly, the “Presence” rarely ever mention by name especially how he’s treated within different canons:

Grant Morrison work on JLA confirms he’s more akin to just a creator entity rather than anything. Even if we discount JLA, we still could consider Final Crisis: Revelations where he is mentioned to be the creator of Heaven and Earth ie Creation ex nihilo and which the Lucifer series also attested with the same claim that God created everything from the Void, so that would be more akin to Creation ex deo which doesn’t even line up. He created Creation out of “himself?” The Overvoid was meant to be the “God” of his Cosmology with the Source being akin to it. This bars another problem.

In Snyder Cosmology, the Void isn’t a sentient cosmic mind with the Multiverse growing. Rather, just an endless expanse of space that teems with life. Apparently, you can “rent from it” ie Perpetua, be beyond it ie the Banks of Creation, and a hierarchy existing in it ie Unseen Council. So, it’s just a “corrosive” force of nature beyond material Creation, nothing like Morrison idea of a supreme Void that can be called God from which Creation is nothing but infinitesimal to it. This comes another problem.

Snyder treated the Overvoid as just some regular Void nothing special to it, and Williamson makes it more complicated. Apparently, the Overvoid isn’t eternal or the first very thing, apparently the Darkness precedes it and the non-dual Void apparently is “Light” akin to “Darkness.” Which makes no sense in the context of Morrison. This also makes no sense since the “Source” came from the Dark. According to Snyder, the Source was supreme and eternal. That the Presence was a personal manifestation, more so an emanation of it, that nothing exists outside the Source, in any way. Thorne literally claims the Source produce the Darkness despite the story kind depicting a different story, and Snyder claim can’t be correct that the Source is “supreme” if it’s matched.

Then you got the obvious caveat: the Presence. The Presence has always taken aspect and manifestation. In JSA, apparently the Darkness treated into the Shadowlands, the same “primordial shadow” the exact description of the Darkness when the Presence said “let there be light” as Incarnate apparently told us the Light grew from being imperceptible in the Darkness as it’s mentioned the Light was created, not naturally formed. Now, you may question “when did the comics mention this?” Obviously, JSA did but let’s pretend it didn’t. I talked to Imaginary Axis(who follows me on Twitter and we had some chat). Apparently, he never asked and it’s never been directly stated in the comics but the Hands were created by the Source, as something don't need a direct explanation. Which comes to my next point, in the DC Greatest Events, it was claimed that the Presence is the fountainhead that exists beyond the Source. In Swamp Thing #75 God exist beyond all opposite and created the Light and Darkness as nothing more than just dualistic concepts in the Marcoverse as there are things beyond the two, even more fundamental, and that same God exist beyond all those levels where he is one with the Void, eternal and living in quintessenal perfection that gave birth to all things.

So, I never liked the “theory” because Morrison never claimed that “God” was even the Presence. His story never supported it, he was giving analogies of different names to the Overvoid, which in several interview he call God which can be interchangeable with “Void” and not the Presence.

Snyder denotes the Overvoid as just some space, not sentient, not God, not anything but just lacking material. Williamson apparently believes that the Darkness is the eternal Void, and the Overvoid is nothing but the hue of perfect light. The Presence has never been mentioned directly other than a Doomsday Special which they call him “God.” Yeah, so there’s so much mess between interpretation.

Like @Elizio33 mentioned earlier. I see the Presence as sitting at the top, at least in his most purest form. With the Source being the source of creative potential that divinity and embodies all life. The Overvoid as just an endless space from which the Multiverses comes about and could be used interchangeably with newer terms like Greater Omniverse or the “Infinite.” The Darkness being the eternal background from which all things comes from. I, personally, think they should all just have different profile with different abilities based on what was seen, not some fan theories claiming they’re the same thing because the stories don’t line with it.

Plus, ask yourself this, how many stories was told of the Presence creating the “Light.” The Light that became Creation and is embodied Creation. That logically makes no sense and that doesn’t sit right with me and the amount of indirect and direct statement that has been made that “God made the light.” DC editorial literally claim they mainly treat the Presence as would the Judeo-Christian view and those literally put him as maker of the “Light.” Yeah, he can shine as bright as the concept of Light, itself, but making him bound to duality is something that I don’t think any writer intended. Morrison never intended Overvoid to be dual, Snyder never intended the Source to be dual, etc…

This thread is merely meant to apply the accepted decision. If you wish to contend the decision, I will wait for you to debate that, but I wish to have no part in that.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

This thread is merely meant to apply the accepted decision. If you wish to contend the decision, I will wait for you to debate that, but I wish to have no part in that.

I very much intended that for the people to see. After all, there’s been a bit of a debacle about the truth to the “Three-In-One” theory that’s never been actual proven correctly.

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

Beyond-Dimensional Existence (Type 2; The Overvoid is beyond spacetime)

Since Type 2 is Low 1-A to 1-A by default now, I think we should reduce it to Type 1 until an official Crisis Cosmology re-evaluation.

Name: The Light of Creation, Monitor-Mind the Overvoid, The Presence, The Source, The Void, The Primal Monitor

You could potentially add Logos/The Voice/The Word as an alternate name.

Intelligence: Unknown (Metron describes Creation as the Source's dream;[5] Superman describes the Overvoid as an "abstract infinite intelligence" while holding the Book of Infinite Pages. It's unclear how these implications translate to knowledge)

This makes sense, but hopefully someone watching this thread can provide Nigh-Omniscience justifications. The only omniscience statements I could find after a brief search come from Vertigo's Presence.

Standard Equipment: The Monitors and Dax Novu (As the Overvoid, the Light initially utilized Dax Novu as a probe to interact with the Flaw that is the DC Multiverse)

You could also arguably add the Functionaries of the Greater Omniverse (e.g. Cosmic Raptor and Chronicler) here, or into a Can Summon/Create section.

Everything looks fine to me.

 

[Weaver261]

It’s not bad but I was never a fan of merging the three for obvious reasons. Firstly, the “Presence” rarely ever mention by name especially how he’s treated within different canons:

I personally consider The Light to be emanation of the presence instead of the other way round. It all make senses when you think like this. First there's all the great darkness. And the presence bring his light and this light became overvoid. The light grew and took over the great darkness's place. The great darkness screamed and it caused a flaw on the light. I think it's very interesting way to describe the process of making stories. You got the white page as comic blank page but it can't show stories without having ink (drawing) on it. So it means both light and dark are used in creating stories (multiverses). May be that's why TGD said "Have I ever looked upon life with nothing but fascination?".This is my little headcanon theory. We should probably wait for the current flash run to finish since there's a God mentioned to be sleeping and dreaming causing Time to flow in the multiverse.

 

[Asterotheology]

Looks fine from what I can see. Only thing I would remove would be the Animal Man scans from the proposed page. Since, as far as I'm currently aware, we don't accept anything from Animal Man in any cosmology. Other than that, I agree with it as one of the people who suggested it months ago.

 

[Elizio33]

I think The Light should be an emanation of The Presence who brought it into the Darkness with the words: Let there be light!

 

[Elizio33]

The Source and Overvoid should be the same as The Light (probably for The Source)

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

The Source and Overvoid should be the same as The Light (probably for The Source)

Personally, due to canon the Light is the Overvoid. I say the Source is an emanation of the Light given the Green Lantern comic it appeared in. At least, the full Source could be equal to the Overvoid/Light since he was just taking form when talking to Steward.

Yeah, the Presence above those two and the Darkness.

 

[Weaver261]

I think it's also should be mentioned that Lucifer once said how the presence needed shadow to give his light definition and without elements of each other, perfect light and perfect darkness are one and the same. IIRC, the source is also once mentioned as power of the god or presence somewhere instead the source being ultimate peak of cosmology

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

I think it's also should be mentioned that Lucifer once said how the presence needed shadow to give his light definition and without elements of each other, perfect light and perfect darkness are one and the same. IIRC, the source is also once mentioned as power of the god or presence somewhere instead the source being ultimate peak of cosmology

Lucifer story isn’t even consider “Crisis Cosmology” and that’s only under the impression God and Devil are exact matches.

As for your second point, it can be said for the Vertigo lore specifically Lucifer and Spectre. No stories outside mentions it.

 

[Weaver261]

Lucifer story isn’t even consider “Crisis Cosmology” and that’s only under the impression God and Devil are exact matches.

As for your second point, it can be said for the Vertigo lore specifically Lucifer and Spectre. No stories outside mentions it.

This is where things get weird. The write of Lucifer 2018 seems to consider his run to be a part of canon cosmology. He confirmed that Lucifer is the great darkness. With that said, it really make sense with the above line I mentioned. Lucifer even mentioned "You yearn for the nothingness that once was all-ness" which align with the origin "the light grew and soon everything was no longer nothing". These are the reasons why it's hard for me to ignore.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

This is where things get weird. The write of Lucifer 2018 seems to consider his run to be a part of canon cosmology. He confirmed that Lucifer is the great darkness. With that said, it really make sense with the above line I mentioned. Lucifer even mentioned "You yearn for the nothingness that once was all-ness" which align with the origin "the light grew and soon everything was no longer nothing". These are the reasons why it's hard for me to ignore.

I don’t know if this is getting off-topic but regardless there’s some things to take from this.

• Max Fiumara the artist of the Lucifer series and also collaborator of Dan Watters clarified later that the hand we see is not from Alan Moore Darkness.
• The Darkness that Lucifer is not the all complete Void. He’s the darkness made in contrast to his father’s light. Mazikeen was described as “darkness” not of Void but rot and warmth. Like how Lucifer is the darkness in contrast to Yahweh’s light.
• If we consider that then the overlap of Black Label title would mean Vertigo would overlap with Crisis.

 

[Weaver261]

Max Fiumara the artist of the Lucifer series and also collaborator of Dan Watters clarified later that the hand we see is not from Alan Moore Darkness.

• The Darkness that Lucifer is not the all complete Void. He’s the darkness made in contrast to his father’s light. Mazikeen was described as “darkness” not of Void but rot and warmth. Like how Lucifer is the darkness in contrast to Yahweh’s light.
• If we consider that then the overlap of Black Label title would mean Vertigo would overlap with Crisis.

I didn't know the artist confirmed that. It might be true that Lucifer and TGD are not related in direct ways or indirect ways. I also think this is getting derailed but let me clarify for the last time that The Darkness lucifer is talking about is the primal ocean of nothing where he came into being. The same goes for spectre. I will end this here since this is getting off topic

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

I think The Light should be an emanation of The Presence who brought it into the Darkness with the words: Let there be light!

I second this.

 

[Antvasima]

I think The Light should be an emanation of The Presence who brought it into the Darkness with the words: Let there be light!

The Source and Overvoid should be the same as The Light (probably for The Source)

I trust Elizio33's sense of judgement regarding this topic.