DC Comics: Follow-ups - Earth-33 (part 1)

[NHTkenshin2]

Welp, i assume you are noticing a pattern with my threads. The other one is going unfathomably slow, so i decided to start this one anyways.

The mission of this specific thread is very simple, its not to establish any upgrade or any dimensional transcendence of any sorts, its simply acknowledging the uniqueness of Earth-33 to all universes in the Orrery, which has nothing to do with upgrading anything.

Earth-33 is intended to represent our own world inside the cosmology of DC. Grant Morrison made it, and its the source of alot of the villainy stuff that happens in Multiversity.

• “GM: Oh yeah, very much. There's got to be a bad guy somewhere. I don't want to say too much about that, but certainly the thing that we're doing, which is the seventh issue of the series, it's called "Ultra Comics", and it's kind of a new character but it's based on Earth Prime, which is our Earth, which we re-named Earth 33 now just so it fits in the numerical structure. | Vampire Batman, Hypnotic Induction, And God: Grant Morrison Talks ‘The Multiversity’ - July 2014

Pretty consistent theme in the comics, considering Earth-33 is viewed as a world without any superheros, and is constantly treated as the real world, this shouldn't be the controversial part, everyone knows this. What is important though, is exactly what Grant considers the Real World as in his cosmology, it has been made very clear that he attributes the Real world to a structure within his Hypertime model named “Cubetime"

Refer to this:

• Everything begins with Point-time, the mark is all possiblity of what a linetime could become. Space A | Batman: The Return of Bruce Wayne #2
• Planetime represents the encompass of linetimes, and the higher dimension being made out of Linetimes. Plane B | Batman: The Return of Bruce Wayne #2
• Cubetime inhabitants view Planetime akin to flat disks. Space C | Batman: The Return of Bruce Wayne #2
• “And then, i thought and obviously above that, taking the metaphor of the geometry higher you would have Cubetime, and in Cubetime are people like us that who are able to look down on Planetime with all the comicbook universes from a higher-dimensional perspective.” | Grant Morrison: Talking with Gods - September 2010

And of course, in an interview regarding Multiversity, Grant mentions Cubetime (Earth-33 in this new context) once again. calling it a Universe beyond the “Second Dimension" (where all of these fictions reside)

• “For the DC universe, it’s quite simple,” he continues. “You don’t need grand theories. The universe exists on the second dimension and we can read their adventures with Superman going back to 1938, and you can put them all together and look at them from above. We can line up the future Superman with the original Superman and they can see each other, but we can see both of them. For me, all of the interesting stuff, this super string stuff, is happening between me and the same dimension as this material.” | Grant Morrison Merges String Theory with Superheroes in DC’s Multiversity - 2014
  • Super-string and M-theory theory of course being mentioned two times within his comics so far, as well as a very consistent cosmology shown in Multiversity and Final Crisis.

All of the above is very consistent with the cosmology for one specific reason. The Gentry (and the Empty Hand)

In Multiversity, the origin of the Gentry is made very clear, it is stated numerous times that The Gentry originated from Outside of The Multiverse entirely:

• The Gentry come from the space outside of creation | Absolute Multiversity
• Creation itself was under attack by Monsters (The Gentry) that come from the nowhere outside of the Multiverse | The Multiversity
• The Gentry watched the Multiverse decay | The Multiversity: Deluxe Edition
• The Gentry come from a Higher Order Reality | The Multiversity: Deluxe Edition
• Monsters come from outside of the Multiverse | The Multiversity: Deluxe Edition

Heres the problem, at the end of Multiversity the actual origin place of The Empty Hand and The Gentry is made very clear, The Gentry and The Empty Hand originated from Earth-33, which if you haven't caught on yet, is stated to be a Higher Order Reality in the previous scans:

• Earth-33 is the source of all the troubles of the Multiversity story, which would of course be referring to The Gentry and The Empty Hand. And speaks directly at the readers reading the Multiversity from Earth-33 | The Multiversity

This idea is very much consistent, Grant Morrison actually already confirmed all of this, The nature of the Gentry and EH are made pretty clear, EH and TG are pretty much products of the readers and critics inside Earth-33.

• The Gentry represent nihilism, anti-human hate, ignorance, greed and stupidity from the Real world | That Mad Rush: Digging Deep Into ‘The Multiversity’ With Grant Morrison [Interview]
• The Empty Hand is the ultimate big bad, beyond even the Anti-Monitor. And represents the empty hand of the reader, who wishes to participate or not | Grant Morrison on Finishing Multiversity and What's Next at DC

Why is Earth-33 exterior to the Multiverse? The Fictive Membrane, it separates the real world from The Multiverse:

• Surrounding the Real world, separating the real world from the Multiverse. This barrier allows only narrative ideas and fiction to pass through. Existing outside of fiction (Planetime). | The Absolute Multiversity appendix

Earth-33 specifically, is far more special then other Earths, every single Earth is influenced by Earth-33s authors specifically, with the Multiverse being powered by the creative power channeled across the Pan-dimensional Rock of Eternity from the Real world (Absolute Multiversity) an idea already brought up in Multiversity, that Earth-33 influences the existence of all other worlds

So what am i waffling about?
So yep, long ass post for a pretty simple premise (i keep lying to myself, this shit is almost always never simple in this godforsaken verse).

Earth-33 is not a part of the usual order of the Multiverse, it clearly influences all other worlds from outside of the Multiverse. I am not looking for any tier upgrades, i am moreso just attempting to acknowledge the fact that Earth-33 is definitely not just another earth alongside all the others, its not interpreted this way in the comics, its not interpreted this way in the interviews, and its not interpreted this way on the AM appendix.

With the Bleedspace thread, innocent ol' me did indeed believe that it was going to go very easily and simple, so lets not do that again. Lets make paragraphs from the first two messages.

---

Big note: Do not mention any tier related changes. This thread has nothing to do with upgrading anything, it simply acknowledges that Location A is not located in Location B, but is located in Location C instead. Keep it that way please.

 

[Antvasima]

@Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepmeTwo @LuciferDC099 @Ehnkr2beboh @Deagonx @Elizio33 @MarvelFanatic119 @catzlaflame @Kulf_Boba @LephyrTheRevanchist @Lightning_XXI @Stefano4444 @LuciferX @Vasco @Excel616 @Immortalgodd @JohnCenaNation @Robo @VeryGoofyToddler @LephyrTheRevanchist @ByAsura @Emirp sumitpo @Quantu @IdiosyncraticLawyer @PrinceofPein @Maverick_Zero_X @catzlaflame @Zensum @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Hykuu @KingEzran @Dark-Carioca @Alonik

What do you think about this?

 

[Deagonx]

I disagree. Earth-33 is quite definitively within the Orrery alongside the other universes. The fictive membrane that surrounds Earth-33 is not an R>F layer.

This argument has more or less been hashed out in other threads, but I am definitely against this.

 

[Deagonx]

The Gentry and The Empty Hand originated from Earth-33,

Also, this is wrong. The scan you're referring to says they used a comic to invade the multiverse, which means we know they came from Earth-33. That's not them saying that their place of birth/origin location is Earth-33, they're saying they know their access point was Earth-33 because they used a comic book. We know Earth-33 isn't outside the multiverse. It's on the map.

 

[Antvasima]

I am personally fine with Deagonx's conclusions here.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

I disagree. Earth-33 is quite definitively within the Orrery alongside the other universes.

It is. Never said its not.

I am simply acknowledging that its not a part of the order of the Multiverse. You haven't even brought a single whiff of evidence to debunk the dump of proof above, simply saying you “disagree" is very confusing.

Thats not even mentioning the fact that the Email Grant sent to Rian Hughes to start making an illustration on the Multiversity map very clearly distinguished Earth-33 from other Earths, but that Rian clearly went with simply putting it alongside other Earths.

The fictive membrane that surrounds Earth-33 is not an R>F layer.

Im starting to get the Maou Gakuin struggle now honestly.

The mission of this specific thread is very simple, its not to establish any upgrade or any dimensional transcendence

which has nothing to do with upgrading anything.

Big note: Do not mention any tier related changes. This thread has nothing to do with upgrading anything, it simply acknowledges that Location A is not located in Location B, but is located in Location C instead. Keep it that way please.

Also, this is wrong. The scan you're referring to says they used a comic to invade the multiverse, which means we know they came from Earth-33. That's not them saying that their place of birth/origin location is Earth-33, they're saying they know their access point was Earth-33 because they used a comic book.

Would have been an actual solid argument, if Grant didn't say that the Gentry weren't the representations of nihilism, anti-human hate, ignorance, greed and stupidity from the Real world. And of course, that the Empty Hand isn't the literal hand of the reader.

Which of course implies that they did originate from Earth-33.

And eitherway, most of the scans above does not speak of their origin, but of the place they came from at the time. Which you yourself just agreed to be Earth-33.

We know Earth-33 isn't outside the multiverse. It's on the map.

You know what else is “on the map"? The Rock of Eternity and Wonderworld. Dispite both of them being explicitly outside of space and time, as well as the regular 52 worlds.

It being on the map is completely meaningless.

Now Deagon, i am going to give you a chance to read the thread, take your time, take a breath, maybe drink some water, and respond again. No need to rush out responses.

I am personally fine with Deagonx's conclusions here.

Ant, i am sorry brother, i have always known you as a very busy individual. I genuinely wanted to ask, do you even read these threads? Like, closely examine them?

 

[Kulf_Boba]

@Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepmeTwo @LuciferDC099 @Ehnkr2beboh @Deagonx @Elizio33 @MarvelFanatic119 @catzlaflame @Kulf_Boba @LephyrTheRevanchist @Lightning_XXI @Stefano4444 @LuciferX @Vasco @Excel616 @Immortalgodd @JohnCenaNation @Robo @VeryGoofyToddler @LephyrTheRevanchist @ByAsura @Emirp sumitpo @Quantu @IdiosyncraticLawyer @PrinceofPein @Maverick_Zero_X @catzlaflame @Zensum @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Hykuu @KingEzran @Dark-Carioca @Alonik

What do you think about this?

I'm sorry, is it possible for you to remove me from your list of DC Comics connoisseurs?
I've never read a DC comic in my life.

 

[Deagonx]

Now Deagon, i am going to give you a chance to read the thread, take your time, take a breath, maybe drink some water, and respond again. No need to rush out responses.

There's no need to be patronizing. I'm allowed to disagree with you.

 

[Antvasima]

I'm sorry, is it possible for you to remove me from your list of DC Comics connoisseurs?
I've never read a DC comic in my life.

Okay. I will do so.

 

[Antvasima]

Ant, i am sorry brother, i have always known you as a very busy individual. I genuinely wanted to ask, do you even read these threads? Like, closely examine them?

Read them, yes. Closely examine them, not always. It depends on how much time I have available.

 

[Catzlaflame]

Im starting to get the Maou Gakuin struggle now honestly.

The mission of this specific thread is very simple, its not to establish any upgrade or any dimensional transcendence

which has nothing to do with upgrading anything.

Big note: Do not mention any tier related changes. This thread has nothing to do with upgrading anything, it simply acknowledges that Location A is not located in Location B, but is located in Location C instead. Keep it that way please.

So uhhh….… what’s the point of the thread then? A CRT is a content revision thread. Emphasis on content revision. How would this thread be reflected on any profiles?

You say “to establish that Earth-33 is unique,” and then deny @Deagonx ‘s claim that your trying to prove r> (And it kinda does seem like that lol) but if that’s not your intention, I’m confused on what is it you would like to change about the profiles.

 

[Deagonx]

So uhhh….… what’s the point of the thread then? A CRT is a content revision thread. Emphasis on content revision. How would this thread be reflected on any profiles?

Yeah, that's the other thing. If this isn't attempting to change a profile then what purpose does this serve? If he agrees it's an earth inside of the Orrery, but surrounded by a fictive membrane, then that's already accepted.

You say “to establish that Earth-33 is unique,” and then deny @Deagonx ‘s claim that your trying to prove r> (And it kinda does seem like that lol) but if that’s not your intention, I’m confused on what is it you would like to change about the profiles.

It's 100% about that, I assume he had the idea of trying to CRT this detail in isolation to try and mount a later R>F CRT.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Also, indirectly the Gentry we're responsible for the creation of the Ultra Comics. They more so came from everything “unnatural.” In the most recent comics, they were there feeding on Pre-Crisis Multiverse before it was fully destroyed.

Anyway, I don't see what this thread is trying to prove. Earth-33 is unique in what way? That's our world? Deagonx’s statement seems feasible to me.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

If he agrees it's an earth inside of the Orrery, but surrounded by a fictive membrane, then that's already accepted.

It is not accepted. I dont know if you remember or not but the whole reason why Earth-33 is not seen as anything special, is specifically due to people thinking its just an ordinary Earth between other Earths. This thread wants to cover this notion, and why its incorrect.

However, you think its accepted already? If so, then this thread can probably be closed.

Anyway, I don't see what this thread is trying to prove. Earth-33 is unique in what way? That's our world? Deagonx’s statement seems feasible to me.

That it exists on top of universes, in a higher order reality. And is seen as “Outside" of the Multiverse by entities within the Multiverse.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

That it exists on top of universes, in a higher order reality. And is seen as “Outside" of the Multiverse by entities within the Multiverse.

We see it exist with the other Earths. All are confined within the Orrery and not above it.

Your last two points are counterintuitive to each other.

 

[Deagonx]

I dont know if you remember or not but the whole reason why Earth-33 is not seen as anything special, is specifically due to people thinking its just an ordinary Earth between other Earths

The cosmology blog says this:

Many of Morrison's works examine the relationship between reality and fiction, sometimes metaphorically and other times literally. Grant Morrison's idea is that all universes are interconnected together by comic books[10] that compile data from each reality of the local multiverse and are intimately linked to a simulation of the real world[11] with regard to Earth-Prime aka Earth-33, which dictates the reality of the other worlds of the Multiverse.[12] Earth-33 distincts from the other universes due to the "Fictive Membrane."[13] Unlike the other universes, Earth-33 lacks superheroes, except for a single 'superhero' who is a comic book itself, Ultra Comics.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

We see it exist with the other Earths. All are confined within the Orrery and not above it.

If “Orrery" here is in reference to the entire Multiversal structure at the middle of the Multiversity map (i.e including Wonderworld, the Rock of Eternity, ect..) Then i obviously agree, i do however disagree that Earth-33 is alongside these Earths, however outside of all of them, and likely outside the Multiverse (as in the 51 Earths)

The cosmology blog says this:

Many of Morrison's works examine the relationship between reality and fiction, sometimes metaphorically and other times literally. Grant Morrison's idea is that all universes are interconnected together by comic books[10] that compile data from each reality of the local multiverse and are intimately linked to a simulation of the real world[11] with regard to Earth-Prime aka Earth-33, which dictates the reality of the other worlds of the Multiverse.[12] Earth-33 distincts from the other universes due to the "Fictive Membrane."[13] Unlike the other universes, Earth-33 lacks superheroes, except for a single 'superhero' who is a comic book itself, Ultra Comics.

Yep, here is what i am proposing though, its not just a unique Earth that influences the Multiverse. However, an Earth outside of the Multiverse (as in the 51 worlds, read my response to Goofy)

And as far as my knowledge goes, it doesn't seem like this is accepted by people. As this was literally the main reason why R>F was rejected in this thread

 

[Deagonx]

However, an Earth outside of the Multiverse (as in the 51 worlds, read my response to Goofy)

If “Orrery" here is in reference to the entire Multiversal structure at the middle of the Multiversity map (i.e including Wonderworld, the Rock of Eternity, ect..) Then i obviously agree, i do however disagree that Earth-33 is alongside these Earths, however outside of all of them, and likely outside the Multiverse (as in the 51 Earths)

The only difference is the fictive membrane. Aside from that, it is quite literally just another earth in the Orrery alongside the other earths.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

If “Orrery" here is in reference to the entire Multiversal structure at the middle of the Multiversity map (i.e including Wonderworld, the Rock of Eternity, ect..) Then i obviously agree, i do however disagree that Earth-33 is alongside these Earths, however outside of all of them, and likely outside the Multiverse (as in the 51 Earths)

52 piles of earth and it's considered 33 and it's pretty obvious it's with them. The Map doesn't show it being any different other than not having heroes.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I am with Deagon, there is no point to this.

 

[LuciferX]

Again?

 

[Antvasima]

I am with Deagon, there is no point to this.

Okay. Should we close this thread then?

 

[PrinceofPein]

Okay. Should we close this thread then?

Imo yes, the OP said this does not affect anything not to mention that is claim there is R>F is wrong and we do not grant R>F for such

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will do so then. Thank you to everybody who helped out here.