DC Comics: Follow-ups - Bleedspace

[Deagonx]

A comic book is fiction, yes.

And it is not the case of an entity viewing time nonlinearly, because Adam makes it completely clear it isnt, by directly comparing it to how the 3rd dimension views the 2nd, a comicbook. A fiction

He was using the comic book as an analogy for non-linear perception of time, not fictionality. You're using an aspect of a comic book which was never referred to as part of the analogy. So we definitely disagree here.

“So they have this notion time is a line, so i thought “So thats basic geometry”. If time is a line so wouldn't that mean that there could be lots of lines on a plane? And so i drew this thing on a back of a napkin to show it to Mark Waid, and it was like a kind of junction, a train junction, with these lines each of which representing different universes, meaning, different comicbooks that contradicted one another, they could all run parallel and sometimes they crossed over, sometimes that Batman who didn't agree with that Batman agreed with him here and fit in a little bit more, so although Frank Miller's Dark Knight didn't actually fit into canon with Batman, what it did is feed some of its energy into the main Batman line to reinvigorate it. So i created this big kind of diagram that was like a loom. And then, i thought okay if that's all the comics, in fact even on that line you can have the Marvel Comics lying running along here, and sometimes it crosses over when Marvel and DC and friends, you've got this beautiful model of comicbooks as a concept as this two-dimensional plane with all these timelines running over one another."

This doesn't really refer to anything other than many timelines, not dimensional R>F relationships.

“And then, i thought and obviously above that, taking the metaphor of the geometry higher you would have Cubetime, and in Cubetime are people like us that who are able to look down on Planetime with all the comicbook universes from a higher-dimensional perspective."

Ditto

“So that's what Hypertime was was, it was a of geometric vision that would incorporate the real world, and the comic universe, and allow every story that was ever told to be...real? Because they are real you can go pick them up, you know, and whether the continuity contradicts or not the stories remain...real? You know and it was-all my thing And was always get to the next level of what's real and what a comic is rather then trying to pretend that i was telling stories about a world that you just couldn't get to. A special world where Superman lives that's, there is no world where Superman lives, it's on that page, and so that's what i was trying to get at."

Okay, I am fully convinced this video does not indicate a belief that the Fifth Dimensions views the Orrery as fictional. That doesn't seem to be what he's getting at here at all.

Where removing imagination causes the contents of the story to be removed from existence, implying existence is literally a product of imagination, a product of the thing that shapes said contents of the story. It is R>F

This is just a repeat of the theory you already proposed to me. Like I said, I do not share this interpretation for the reasons I described above.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

He was using the comic book as an analogy for non-linear perception of time, not fictionality. You're using an aspect of a comic book which was never referred to as part of the analogy. So we definitely disagree here.

Let me break it down for you, he shows a comicbook, comicbooks are fictional, not real unfortunately. Then compares the comicbook to the readers to the relationship between the 2nd dimension and the 3rd dimension. The relationship between fiction and reality

Reading the bit below regarding “Planetime" and “Cubetime” considering these were interduced 4 years before Multiversity, you get a very clear view on what Morrison was referring to. Its the “higher-dimensional perspective" that real life humans have over fiction. This is literally the basics of R>F, like it is the much more then the required amount of evidence.

And of course, a direct reference to this quote

“I have a suspicion, based upon experience, that in HYPERCUBE TIME, there exist intelligences who stand in relation to our 3-D universe as we stand in relation to the 2-D universe of our comic book, film or TV heroes and who can leaf through our lives and times with the same ease we can leaf through Superman’s history but that’s just me.”

Ditto

What? Did the “higher dimensional perspective" not ring any bells for you here?

Okay, I am fully convinced this video does not indicate a belief that the Fifth Dimensions views the Orrery as fictional. That doesn't seem to be what he's getting at here at all.

Yes because its not even talking about the Fifth Dimension lmao.

Its talking about dimensions as a whole, its the literal fact that the author interprets them as layers of Reality and fiction, the difference between how 3-D beings view 2-D as flat comicbooks, and so on. And the fact that architectures within the Orrery existing in the Fifth Dimension implies a higher dimensional existence, because of the existence in a plane that views the one before it as fictional.

 

[Deagonx]

Let me break it down for you, he shows a comicbook, comicbooks are fictional, not real unfortunately. Then compares the comicbook to the readers to the relationship between the 2nd dimension and the 3rd dimension. The relationship between fiction and reality

Im aware of the premise of your argument. I already responded to this, so I don't know why you're repeating it?

Reading the bit below regarding “Planetime" and “Cubetime” considering these were interduced 4 years before Multiversity, you get a very clear view on what Morrison was referring to. Its the “higher-dimensional perspective" that real life humans have over fiction. This is literally the basics of R>F, like it is the much more then the required amount of evidence.

“I have a suspicion, based upon experience, that in HYPERCUBE TIME, there exist intelligences who stand in relation to our 3-D universe as we stand in relation to the 2-D universe of our comic book, film or TV heroes and who can leaf through our lives and times with the same ease we can leaf through Superman’s history but that’s just me.”

This doesn't refer to Mxy or anything within DC.

Its talking about dimensions as a whole, its the literal fact that the author interprets them as layers of Reality and fiction

It's a theory of yours, certainly, but I don't think you have very good evidence for it. You are of course free to continue expressing it as a fact, but simply reminding me of your opinion that your opinion is objectively correct isn't going to do much good here.

 

[Alonik]

Can anyone tell me how the fifth dimension being Low 1-C or not will affect anything here? I believe that is already accepted. I can even elaborate with scans that are not even available in the cosmologies page if you need them.

The Fifth Dimension completely transcends the 4-dimensional axis of the multiverse and encompasses everything on the multiverse map except for the Source Wall, giving 1 degree of infinity above Low 2-C, which means the Fifth Dimension is a Low 1-C structure. Characters who scale to the Fifth Dimension like Mister Mxyzptlk and Bat-Mite are also Low 1-C. - DC Cosmology Page

However, the main point is: The orrery being connected with fixed points that rotate within/through the fifth dimension does not make the orrery Low 1-C. Precisely, if we're going to talk about anything, the space between the universes in final crisis was only 4D, regardless of how much Bleed scales outside the boundaries of the Orrery.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Can anyone tell me how the fifth dimension being Low 1-C or not will affect anything here

Alonik, you missed a big point of my argument. One that i am currently arguing with Deagon about.

The Fifth Dimension isn't just a mathematically higher dimension, its a completely higher world. Its a world that views the 4th as fictional. Existing within it isn't a small thing in the slightest, its acknowledging that a structure within the Orrery exists within a space that views the one below it as fictional. In Multiversity, it is made very clear dimensions view each other as fictional

 

[Deagonx]

As I said, he's referring to an atemporal perspective. He doesn't refer to fictionality

 

[Alonik]

Alonik, you missed a big point of my argument. One that i am currently arguing with Deagon about.

The Fifth Dimension isn't just a mathematically higher dimension, its a completely higher world. Its a world that views the 4th as fictional. Existing within it isn't a small thing in the slightest, its acknowledging that a structure within the Orrery exists within a space that views the one below it as fictional. In Multiversity, it is made very clear dimensions view each other as fictional

I didn't ignore it. But why are you not suggesting that even Earth 1 is Low 1-C? The fifth dimension even exists on it, we even have scans of it.

I have already raised point here that addresses all of this and was ignored: A pandimensional framework existing on all planes of existence because it is the background where these dimensions are laid and indexed does not make everything below scale to that given dimension.

And that is exactly the point, orrery does not exist at all levels of the multiverse, Bleed and Imagination does.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

I didn't ignore it. But why are you not suggesting that even Earth 1 is Low 1-C? The fifth dimension even exists on it, we even have scans of it.

I must say, i am completely unfamiliar with any scans that say that the Fifth Dimension exists on Earth-1. Considering it pretty much contradicts all of the evidence that clearly places the Fifth Dimension outside the regular universe.

But even then, 5-D things can exist anywhere. It is imagination itself afterall. It's the very fact that this specific “creepy guts-of-a-cyborg architecture" was stated to rotate within the Fifth Dimension (thus, within the same level of existence as the Fifth Dimension) that differentiates it from others.

I have already raised point here that addresses all of this and was ignored: A pandimensional framework existing on all planes of existence because it is the background where these dimensions are laid and indexed does not make everything below scale to that given dimension.

I did not ignore that. I was the first to agree with it.

I do however disagree with the notion that the space between universes though wouldn't scale to Low 1-C for numerous reasons. And my main points are not referring to the full structure of the Bleed, considering most of the points provided (Supes 4-D vison, a Hyperspace that extends beyond Spacetime and the Fifth Dimension) have been blatantly referring to the space between universes not the Bleed that supposedly spans over the entire Multiverse.

Also, i did adress the House of Heros statement, right here

The second paragraph introduces the House of Heroes, which serves as a cosmic headquarters or base of operations. And has the unique ability to simply access (not embody, not exist at) all the different layers or levels of the multiverse. This access is achieved through its rotation within the fifth dimension, and located within the Orrery, as evidenced by the map. As the House of Heroes rotates through this higher dimension, it acts as a stable point from which the monitors (entities responsible for overseeing and safeguarding the multiverse) launch their missions or ventures into the Bleed (the space between different universes) or any of the 52 Earths within the multiverse. Which as Xearsay has constantly proved in this thread, is a process taking place within the Orrery of Worlds.

 

[Xearsay]

Just to further support Kenshins point here.

The “creepy guts” that Rodney Rabbit sees shifting and rotating through the fifth dimension is referring to Bleed Space.

Also the house of heroes exists in Bleed, which is within the Orrery of Worlds. As shown from the map and Multiversity where it’s said to be “outside of normal time and space” and “between universes.” We also see the Justice League leave the House of Heroes and end straight up in Bleed Space.

 

[Xearsay]

And that is exactly the point, orrery does not exist at all levels of the multiverse, Bleed and Imagination does.

Also you haven’t proven this so I don’t know why you keep saying it.

Morrison established that Bleed exist solely in the Orrery. As represented in the map and as explained by the Monitors needing to drill into the Orrery to siphon Bleed.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

I agree with Xearsey. The Bleed in Morrison Cosmology is within the Bleed.

 

[LuciferX]

Why are we assuming that rotating around a fixed point in a higher plane prove both have same dimensionality?

Ping some Tier 1 Expert. Case closed.

 

[Alonik]

Also you haven’t proven this so I don’t know why you keep saying it.

Morrison established that Bleed exist solely in the Orrery. As represented in the map and as explained by the Monitors needing to drill into the Orrery to siphon Bleed.

If you don't see it, fine, but in other views I have proven it anyway.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Why are we assuming that rotating around a fixed point in a higher plane prove both have same dimensionality?

For the 9th time, its not just because its a higher dimensional existence, its because its a space that views all what is below it as fiction. Existing and rotating within it has to inherently mean that you view the Fourth Dimension as fictional.

Even outside of Morrison's verse, the Fifth Dimension has been proven to view existence as fictional in Snyders verse, and as a bonus, in Williamsons verse too.

Ping some Tier 1 Expert. Case closed.

The gods have abandoned us long ago.

I have pinged every DC guy that i know, except Ultima.

 

[LuciferX]

For the 9th time, its not just because its a higher dimensional existence, its because its a space that views all what is below it as fiction. Existing and rotating within it has to inherently mean that you view the Fourth Dimension as fictional.

Even outside of Morrison's verse, the Fifth Dimension has been proven to view existence as fictional in Snyders verse, and as a bonus, in Williamsons verse too.

To my knowledge, only beings reside in fifth dimension like imps can view reality as fiction, both shazam, and GL had entered fifth dimension once but I don't think it will grant them same dimensionality just by existing there. Specially, Grant treated 5th dimension as a geometrical dimension not a reality>fiction layer. Yes, imps do view reality as 2-D, it doesn't relate to R>F just a feature of being higher dimensional which can be used to prove QS.
Then, Lobo should also need a Low 1-C key by your logic?

 

[NHTkenshin2]

To my knowledge, only beings reside in fifth dimension like imps can view reality as fiction,

Does that architecture not reside in the Fifth Dimension? It didn't enter the Fifth Dimension at a specific time, considering the House of Heros exists outside of regular Spacetime, meaning it resides in the Fifth Dimension. No different from the imps.

Specially, Grant treated 5th dimension as a geometrical dimension not a reality>fiction layer.

Grant interprets them as both a geometrical dimension and a dimension that views the one below it as fiction. Because thats his whole thing with Dimensions and Superstring theory.

 

[LuciferX]

Grant interprets them as both a geometrical dimension and a dimension that views the one below it as fiction. Because thats his whole thing with Dimensions and Superstring theory.

Any proof for R>F part?

 

[Deagonx]

Any proof for R>F part?

A vague author statement from 13 years ago.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Any proof for R>F part?

A vague author statement from 13 years ago.

In Batman: The Return of Bruce Wayne Vol 1 #2 (2010) we get these very blatant statements that mention the existence of a “Planetime" and a “Cubetime". All of which are blatantly stated to be higher dimensional existences within Hypertime

1. Everything begins with Point-time, the mark is all possiblity of what a linetime could become. Space A | Batman: The Return of Bruce Wayne #2 - 2010
2. Planetime represents the encompass of linetimes, and the higher dimension being made out of Linetimes. Plane B | Batman: The Return of Bruce Wayne #2 - 2010
3. Cubetime inhabitants view Planetime akin to flat disks. Space C | Batman: The Return of Bruce Wayne #2 - 2010

Later on, in numerous different interviews, Grant explains this concept in great detail. Right here specifically:

1st: Is the All-Star line itself a separate part of Hyper-time?

Grant: It could be regarded as that if you like. All-Star is a Hypertime Line which went underground for 20 years and is now coming back into the light.
‘Hypertime’ was the name Mark Waid gave to a concept of cosmic geometry I’d come up with, one bleary night in San Diego – given that the DCU has a Time LINE, the idea started as a consideration of what might exist beyond the Time Line, on the Time PLANE, or even in the mysterious Time CUBE . The theory allowed every comic story you ever read to be part of a larger-scale mega-continuity, which also includes other comic book ‘universes’ as well as the ‘real world’ we live in and dimensions beyond our own. It was also about how the world of fiction relates literally and geometrically to the world of ‘reality’. Some of its basic features have even been echoed in current cosmological ideas emerging from the field of superstring research and M-Theory. Skip the rest of this answer if you can’t be bothered with crazy talk.
We all live in Hypertime – in our 3-Dimensional level of Hypertime, which can be seen as CUBE TIME in relation to the DCU’s LINE TIME, we can pick up comics and leaf through them, flipping in any direction – ‘time traveling’ back and forward through the ‘continuity’ like some new Doctor Who! I have a suspicion, based upon experience, that in HYPERCUBE TIME, there exist intelligences who stand in relation to our 3-D universe as we stand in relation to the 2-D universe of our comic book, film or TV heroes and who can leaf through our lives and times with the same ease we can leaf through Superman’s history but that’s just me. | Comic Book Biography: GRANT MORRISON
.

Grant also explains this in great detail right here:

So they have this notion time is a line, so i thought “So thats basic geometry”. If time is a line so wouldn't that mean that there could be lots of lines on a plane? And so i drew this thing on a back of a napkin to show it to Mark Waid, and it was like a kind of junction, a train junction, with these lines each of which representing different universes, meaning, different comicbooks that contradicted one another, they could all run parallel and sometimes they crossed over, sometimes that Batman who didn't agree with that Batman agreed with him here and fit in a little bit more, so although Frank Miller's Dark Knight didn't actually fit into canon with Batman, what it did is feed some of its energy into the main Batman line to reinvigorate it. So i created this big kind of diagram that was like a loom. And then, i thought okay if that's all the comics, in fact even on that line you can have the Marvel Comics lying running along here, and sometimes it crosses over when Marvel and DC and friends, you've got this beautiful model of comicbooks as a concept as this two-dimensional plane with all these timelines running over one another.

And then, i thought and obviously above that, taking the metaphor of the geometry higher you would have Cubetime, and in Cubetime are people like us that who are able to look down on Planetime with all the comicbook universes from a higher-dimensional perspective.

Which then allowed me to imagine Hypercube time, which would be the kind of entities i was talking to you about from the Kathmandu experience, looking down on our Spacetime as the same flat surface where they can see future, past, present simultaneously.

All of which being a part of Hypertime, which is described by GM here

So that's what Hypertime was was, it was a of geometric vision that would incorporate the real world, and the comic universe, and allow every story that was ever told to be...real? Because they are real you can go pick them up, you know, and whether the continuity contradicts or not the stories remain...real? You know and it was-all my thing And was always get to the next level of what's real and what a comic is rather then trying to pretend that i was telling stories about a world that you just couldn't get to. A special world where Superman lives that's, there is no world where Superman lives, it's on that page, and so that's what i was trying to get at.

With of course, Hypertime tying to the whole convergence thing.

And of course, as of 2014s Multiversity. Grant brings up this cosmology again, and obviously uses it to refer to these higher existences:

he continues. “You don’t need grand theories. The universe exists on the second dimension and we can read their adventures with Superman going back to 1938, and you can put them all together and look at them from above. We can line up the future Superman with the original Superman and they can see each other, but we can see both of them. For me, all of the interesting stuff, this super string stuff, is happening between me and the same dimension as this material.” | Grant Morrison Merges String Theory with Superheroes in DC’s Multiversity

Now, the entire reason why i am bringing up this entire thing, is because of Quantum Supermans describtions of dimensions in Pax Americana. Quantum Supes is seen reading a comicbook. Then tells them that he thinks how the universe would appear from a higher dimensional perspective, flat. Then explicitly tells that that he views the story nonlinearly, then tells them that this comicbook, this fiction, is how a 2-dimensional continuum looks to 3-dimensional entities, then tells them that his existence would view them much like how a 3-D existence would view a 2-D existence. Implying that all dimensions work like that.

I give you two interpretations here, i will lay them out for both of you.

1. Quantum Superman views the universe nonlinearly, and isnt inherently a dimensional or R>F transcendence
2. Quantum Superman, because of his higher dimensional existence, views the 3-D universe exactly how a 3-D universe views a 2-D continuum (comicbook/fictional)

You pick interpretation 1? Thats incorrect, straight up.

As Grant had already told us a bajillion times already with Hypertime and Mutliversity, higher dimensions perceive lower dimensions as fictional. Making the first interpretation a completely incorrect interpretation of dimensions, that goes directly against not just Morrisons actual interpretation, but also Snyders interpretation, which does believe that the Fifth Dimension also has a metafictional dominion over reality in Justice League #19.

So no, i do not believe the Fifth Dimension is just some useless addition to the cosmology, power scaling wise. And obviously does transcend the 4th dimension viewing it as fiction. Making the “creepy guts-of-a-cyborg architecture" 100% a 5-D structure. Making the Bleed between Universes a Low 1-C structure.

To answer Deegons question, as of 2022 with Absolute Multiversity (and Joshua Williamsons works) all of this is still applicable to now.

If you read through all of this, i genuinely thank you.

 

[Deagonx]

1. Quantum Superman views the universe nonlinearly, and isnt inherently a dimensional or R>F transcendence
2. Quantum Superman, because of his higher dimensional existence, views the 3-D universe exactly how a 3-D universe views a 2-D continuum (comicbook/fictional)

You pick interpretation 1? Thats incorrect, straight up.

I do indeed pick interpretation 1, because a) Quantum Superman is a version of Dr. Manhattan, whos power involves seeing the timeline non-linearly and b) the analogy he gave refers exclusively to viewing time non-linearly, and he does not mention fictionality.

As Grant had already told us a bajillion times already with Hypertime and Mutliversity, higher dimensions perceive lower dimensions as fictional. Making the first interpretation a completely incorrect interpretation of dimensions, that goes directly against not just Morrisons actual interpretation, but also Snyders interpretation, which does believe that the Fifth Dimension also has a metafictional dominion over reality in Justice League #19.

The one instance in which I have seen a quote from Morrison that actually refers to R>F difference is a description of his personal spiritual experience about beings who view our world the same way we view the world of comics, but this was not about DC's cosmology.

The other pieces of evidence that you boldly assert "prove" an R>F stance towards the cosmology are very easily interpreted in other ways. The example in Justice League #19 is a good instance of this, because I absolutely do not believe it is indicative of R>F and you are the only person I know that does. That doesn't mean you're wrong, per se, but the idea that this is a concrete fact that can't be denied is pretty clearly ridiculous.

And you have never, not once, effectively rebutted the fact that we have a long long long series of interactions between all of these beings in which an R>F relationship becomes impossible. I don't anticipate it ever being accepted that the World Forger, for instance, considers Superman as a fictional character. Or that Perpetua considers her multiverse a work of fiction. Nothing about these stories gives that impression at all.

 

[LuciferX]

I'll address that 8-D scan later and this is irrelvent for 5-D R>F evidence. First you need to know the difference between dimensions and reality>fiction.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

All I've seen are regular dimension being mentioned. Cube Time is 3D, if all of them happen in Hypertime then Hypertime at the most is 4D and it's not even contained within the Orrery.

 

[Xearsay]

The Allen Adam scan is talking about how our universe appears from a higher dimensional perspective is similar to how we perceive fiction in a comic book. So it counts as R>F.

And Ultima confirmed this for me a while ago. So there’s no need to even argue over this.

 

[LuciferX]

The Allen Adam scan is talking about how our universe appears from a higher dimensional perspective is similar to how we perceive fiction in a comic book. So it counts as R>F.

And Ultima confirmed this for me a while ago. So there’s no need to even argue over this.

He's talking about something he caught sight off in the comic book he's reading (yes, about 8 dimensions) ,you need to prove it exists in cosmology.

 

[Antvasima]

@Deagonx @Alonik

What are your current conclusions regarding what should be done here in summary?

 

[NHTkenshin2]

a) Quantum Superman is a version of Dr. Manhattan, whos power involves seeing the timeline non-linearly

Both are true at the exact same time. Grant literally told us a product of viewing comicbooks as fictional is that you are capable of going through their history.

he continues. “You don’t need grand theories. The universe exists on the second dimension and we can read their adventures with Superman going back to 1938, and you can put them all together and look at them from above. We can line up the future Superman with the original Superman and they can see each other, but we can see both of them. For me, all of the interesting stuff, this super string stuff, is happening between me and the same dimension as this material.”

b) the analogy he gave refers exclusively to viewing time non-linearly, and he does not mention fictionality.

Nope, actually reading the scan tells a very different answer. “I am thinking how the universe appears from a higher dimensional perspective", then says a comic is a 2-D continuum.

I do concede that some of my points are indeed subjective interpretations, but when you have 4+ interviews, numerous different comicbook sources then it comes as objective as the earths roundness.

The one instance in which I have seen a quote from Morrison that actually refers to R>F difference is a description of his personal spiritual experience about beings who view our world the same way we view the world of comics

Correct, his Kathmandu experience, which he incorporated into Hypercube-time, another higher dimension within his M-Theory cosmology.

And you have never, not once, effectively rebutted the fact that we have a long long long series of interactions between all of these beings in which an R>F relationship becomes impossible.

What? your “this guy (who isnt in his dimension) doesn't view that guy (who are both in the same dimension) as fictional, meaning he doesn't transcend him!” that...one?

We both know thats complete bluff. Its like calling the real world not transcendent over fiction because some Author avatars interact with their fictional characters. There is absolutely nothing within Snyders verse to my knowledge that contradicts Higher dimensional entities viewing lower dimensional entities as fictional.

Mobius and Perp are not avatars when we see them in Vol. 4, however they are very much not in their respective dimensions, the one that would actually show them in their full form.

and this is irrelvent for 5-D R>F evidence. First you need to know the difference between dimensions and reality>fiction.

Its not hard to understand i swear.

All I've seen are regular dimension being mentioned. Cube Time is 3D

Are you unironically trying to imply that no one in DC reaches even Tier 10 and everyone is fictional? Its an obvious metaphor to comicbooks being fiction.

The Allen Adam scan is talking about how our universe appears from a higher dimensional perspective is similar to how we perceive fiction in a comic book. So it counts as R>F.

And Ultima confirmed this for me a while ago. So there’s no need to even argue over this.

Yep, Ultima understands it, i've always seen them as a logical thinking individual. Anyone would understand it.

Very blatant, straightforward scan.

 

[LuciferX]

Its not hard to understand i swear.

I asked about R>F evidence for fifth dimension. so it's irrelevant here.

Yep, Ultima understands it, i've always seen them as a logical thinking individual. Anyone would understand it.

He's talking about something he caught sight off in the comic book he's reading (yes, about 8 dimensions) ,you need to prove it exists in cosmology.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Are you unironically trying to imply that no one in DC reaches even Tier 10 and everyone is fictional? Its an obvious metaphor to comicbooks being fiction.

What are you even talking about? In that story, they were talking about how the dimensionality of these different planes. How things would look flat in 1D from a 2D perspective would it from 3D. It's literally how real dimensionality works and has nothing to do with fiction. Has nothing to do with functionality and it literally states Cube Time is 3D hence “Cube.” Comics seem 2D from our perspective and 3D in setting.

So if inside the comics you have a 3D character which is pretty much everyone. Like Earth-33 sees comics as flat despite being in it and some residents going to the others Earth being the same dimensionality of the others.

 

[Deagonx]

The Allen Adam scan is talking about how our universe appears from a higher dimensional perspective is similar to how we perceive fiction in a comic book. So it counts as R>F.

He never uses the word fiction, he says it's similar to how we view time non-linearly within a comic book, not that we consider its contents as fictional. You're expanding the analogy beyond what Allen Adam actually said.

And Ultima confirmed this for me a while ago. So there’s no need to even argue over this.

Ultima is just a single staff user. The idea that his word eliminates the possibility of argument is pretty ridiculous and even he would agree with that.

Very blatant, straightforward scan.

Well, I've made my view clear on it. I don't think there's much benefit to going back and forth further.

 

[Deagonx]

@Deagonx @Alonik

What are your current conclusions regarding what should be done here in summary?

My opinion is that nothing needs to be done. I disagree with applying a revision based on this thread, personally.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

This thread is reaching nowhere, we need a Tier 1 expert here. Considering it isn't even a disagreement on any lore related stuff.

 

[Deagonx]

We already called many members of staff. We could potentially try to get DT or Ultima involved, but it's doubtful as they are both quite busy.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

This could upgrade a fair amount of characters in the verse to Tier 1. It would definitely be very appreciated if they comment

 

[Xearsay]

He never uses the word fiction, he says it's similar to how we view time non-linearly within a comic book, not that we consider its contents as fictional. You're expanding the analogy beyond what Allen Adam actually said.

Allen Adam directly says in the beginning, “I’m thinking about how our universe appears from a higher dimensional perspective” meaning not just time, but the whole universe. He then starts comparing how we read, perceive, and treat the story written and drawn within a comic book to how a higher dimensional being perceives and interacts with the universe.

 

[Deagonx]

“I’m thinking about how our universe appears from a higher dimensional perspective” meaning not just time, but the whole universe.

There's absolutely no reason why that couldn't refer to temporal perception of the universe.

He then starts comparing how we read, perceive, and treat the story written and drawn within a comic book to how a higher dimensional being perceives and interacts with the universe.

Never in a way that refers to its fictionality.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Allen Adam directly says in the beginning, “I’m thinking about how our universe appears from a higher dimensional perspective” meaning not just time, but the whole universe. He then starts comparing how we read, perceive, and treat the story written and drawn within a comic book to how a higher dimensional being perceives and interacts with the universe.

You didn't say, do you agree or disagree with the upgrade?

 

[Xearsay]

You didn't say, do you agree or disagree with the upgrade?

I agree.

There's absolutely no reason why that couldn't refer to temporal perception of the universe.

How “time appears” and how the “universe appears” are two different things. That’s like asking why can’t “I like apples” be referring to “I like oranges.” Plus Allen Adam directly says “flat” afterwards.

Never in a way that refers to its fictionality.

The universe being equated to a fictional story in a comic book within Allen Adams analogy already covers this.

 

[Deagonx]

Time is a lens through which the universe is viewed. This is a pretty big grasping of straws.

And no, the fact that he used a comic book as an analogy doesn't mean it encompasses all aspects of a comic book even if they're never mentioned. By that same logic you could say he meant that he sees our world as being made of ink and paper, which is obviously not the point he was making.

You can continue to argue otherwise, but that scan just isn't proof of anything other than non-linear perception of time. Anything else is an assumption that no one else is forced to accept.

 

[Xearsay]

Time is a lens through which the universe is viewed. This is a pretty big grasping of straws.

It’s simply how one perceives events in the universe. That doesn’t actually mean “how the universe appears” can be interchangeable with “how time appears.” As “time” and the “universe” are not the same thing. Time is a property of the universe.

And no, the fact that he used a comic book as an analogy doesn't mean it encompasses all aspects of a comic book even if they're never mentioned. By that same logic you could say he meant that he sees our world as being made of ink and paper, which is obviously not the point he was making.

If I compare seeing the universe from a higher dimensional perspective to reading a comic story. That directly equates the universe to fiction from the higher perspective, because perceiving the universe is being equated with reading a fictional story/comic.

 

[Deagonx]

It’s simply how one perceives events in the universe. That doesn’t actually mean “how the universe appears” can be interchangeable with “how time appears.” As “time” and the “universe” are not the same thing. Time is a property of the universe.


If I compare seeing the universe from a higher dimensional perspective to reading a comic story. That directly equates the universe to fiction from the higher perspective, because perceiving the universe is being equated with reading a fictional story/comic.

My earlier responses already covered both of these arguments, so I don't have anything further to add as my rebuttals haven't been addressed.