DC Comics: Follow-ups - Bleedspace

[NHTkenshin2]

Can somebody remind me regarding both sides of the arguments here please?

I have summarised all of my arguments above.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for staying on the main topic.

I want people to slowly disect the following arguments closely so we can reach a conclusion.

---

---

In Final Crisis: Superman Beyond #1, as Main Supes is employed by Zillo Valla to protect the Multiverse. Upon entering Bleedspace, Zillo comments that Superman most probably does not comprehend his surroundings, and requires 4-dimensional vision to fully comprehend what he is experiencing.

If you order Final Crisis physically, you can get glasses named “Overvoid viewers" that allow the individual wearing them to view 4-dimensional perspective. The wording in both the description of these glasses and in comics, explicitly state that you are viewing from the perspective of a 4-dimensional entity, which is important.

More importantly, Zillo explicitly states to Superman that his Optical Range would also get affected and upgraded to experience Bleedspace. These two points are pretty integral for several different reasons, allow me to explain.

I will at least try to explain the general idea of the following fact. The images our eyes perceive are considered two-dimensional because they are formed on the flat surface of our retinas, consisting of height and width but lacking depth.

However, our brain processes visual cues like perspective, shading, and motion to create a vivid three-dimensional perception, allowing us to experience depth and the fullness of the visual world. It constructs a mental representation that transcends the flatness of the retinal images, resulting in our ability to perceive an immersive three-dimensional reality that allows us to see in a dimension higher then the one the images that reach out retinas are.

Where Optical range, and the Overvoid viewers come into play, is that they are without a shadow of a doubt, not referring to the translated images of our brains, the imagery perceived by an entity existing in 4-dimensions, but to the likewise, 2-D images that are given to Supermans retinas, and usually translated into 3-D with normal human cases.

The term "optical range" typically refers to the range of electromagnetic radiation that is visible to the human eye, rather than specifically referring to the images perceived before the brain processes them into three dimensions.

When we talk about the optical range, we are primarily referring to the wavelengths of light that our eyes can detect and respond to. These wavelengths are then captured by the eye's optics (cornea, lens, etc.) and form an image on the retina. The retina photoreceptors that convert the incoming light into electrical signals. These signals are then transmitted to the brain via the optic nerve for further processing and interpretation, including the construction of a three-dimensional perception of the visual scene.

Making the Bleed not limited by 4-dimensions, which becomes even more apparent, when you meet with the other two following arguments in support of a 4+ Dimensional Bleedspace.

The Bleed is explicitly stated to be a literal Hyperspace, (meaning; often conceptualized as additional dimensions that exist alongside the conventional spatial dimensions we are familiar with. This however, being a case of a Hyperspace in comparison to already 4-dimensional spacetime continuums) consistent with it being called the Bulk, a concept closely associated with a higher-D space encompassing universes. Ultimately making it inherently a 5-dimensional structure

And the best case for 5-D. When conversing with Doctor Multiverse, Rodney Rabbit comments that architectures within Bleedspace are shifting, because they are rotating through 5-dimensions in a fixed point within the Orrery of Worlds. This has a lot of shit to consider off the bat.

First, again, suggests that there is a dynamic transformation or movement within that dimension while maintaining a fixed reference point. And of course, lets not even forget that Grant clearly considers dimensions to be referring to higher metafictional dimensional perspectives looking down on the lower reality as a fictional comicbook. Literally existing within that space has to imply that you exist in a space that views the ordinary 4 dimensions as fictional.


All of the above ultimately leading me to believe that the Bleed is most definitely, without a shadow of a doubt, a 5-dimensional space. It is a Hyperspace encompassing spacetime continuums, it is requires 4-dimensional images being sent to the retina to merely comprehend, when a a brain actually usually translates said images to a higher, more complex perspective, and it has “
architectures” within the Orrery, within Bleedspace that rotate through 5-dimensions, also further opening up room for higher dimensional perspective within the Bleed.

Again, i wish, if you do have problems with 5-D Bleed, to tackle this arguments head on, giving closure to anyone who wishes to make a similar CRT in the future if this gets rejected.

@Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepmeTwo @LuciferDC099 @Ehnkr2beboh @Deagonx @Elizio33 @MarvelFanatic119 @catzlaflame @Kulf_Boba @LephyrTheRevanchist @Lightning_XXI @Stefano4444 @LuciferX @Vasco @Excel616 @Immortalgodd @JohnCenaNation @Robo @VeryGoofyToddler @LephyrTheRevanchist @ByAsura @Emirp sumitpo @Quantu @IdiosyncraticLawyer @Maverick_Zero_X @PrinceofPein

What do you think about this thread?

 

[NHTkenshin2]

What do you think about this thread?

What do you think about it though Ant? Or are you too busy to give an opinion?

 

[Antvasima]

I am unfortunately too busy and distracted. My apologies.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

I am unfortunately too busy and distracted. My apologies.

So i assume you are still in agreement with Deagonxs arguments, correct?

 

[Antvasima]

If that is what I thought previously, sure, in lack of better options, but I do not remember the arguments here anymore.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

I like the information presented but I rather we keep it where it is.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Personally, i think the Bleed between universes should stay 2-C and its highest level flowing through every level of existence (minus the 6th Dimension)/the true form of the flaw is Low 1-C.

The Flaw is Existence so it's naturally Low 1-C. The part that Perpetua created was just the dimensional superstructure. Everything else naturally came when the Multiverse deemed life which was part of her goal to see but didn't directly do.

 

[Elizio33]

The Flaw is Existence so it's naturally Low 1-C. The part that Perpetua created was just the dimensional superstructure. Everything else naturally came when the Multiverse deemed life which was part of her goal to see but didn't directly do.

Yeah

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Yeah

What's your take on the Morrison theory that there are multiple Creations in the Overvoid?

Well exclude his logic of Marvel or Archie Universe being there but we can say there are near infinite Universe(Creation) there. This would mean that Overvoid overlaps in many canons since Vertigo Void is almost like this, where it holds Creations within a portion of its Infinity.

Do you think these two Void are the same? If so the Divine Presence is the “Void beyond all voids” would make sense since the Void is also part of him. In Overture it was said the Void is a part of God's mind where ideas drift and float. Do you think there are some connection here?

 

[PrinceofPein]

I did not follow this, can someone link the summaries or is it just the OP?

 

[Elizio33]

What's your take on the Morrison theory that there are multiple Creations in the Overvoid?

Well exclude his logic of Marvel or Archie Universe being there but we can say there are near infinite Universe(Creation) there. This would mean that Overvoid overlaps in many canons since Vertigo Void is almost like this, where it holds Creations within a portion of its Infinity.

Do you think these two Void are the same? If so the Divine Presence is the “Void beyond all voids” would make sense since the Void is also part of him. In Overture it was said the Void is a part of God's mind where ideas drift and float. Do you think there are some connection here?

It's possible. Morrison hinted an early conceptualization of an Omniverse which was further elaborated in Scott Snyder and James Tynion IV stories. These Creations were shaped by various different creators within the Overvoid. This is very similar with Vertigo's notion of other Creations in the Void. If and i said if we had Joshua Williamson's ideas into this, the Overvoid or Void is the Light, a manifest form of the Divine Presence.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

It's possible. Morrison hinted an early conceptualization of an Omniverse which was further elaborated in Scott Snyder and James Tynion IV stories. These Creations were shaped by various different creators within the Overvoid. This is very similar with Vertigo's notion of other Creations in the Void. If and i said if we had Joshua Williamson's ideas into this, the Overvoid or Void is the Light, a manifest form of the Divine Presence.

I don't think it's a manifestation. In Mattheis’s story, it was said everyone is dreaming to discover self-identity to be linked to the Oversoul that connects them all.

It was also said in JLD that all Creators or God are just concepts to a larger entity. That none could comprehend and is beyond them all. Light would be one of these “Creators” which the author said are just an aspect of the Divine Presence.

We also see this in Swamp Thing beyond the duality of Light and Darkness there is a God breathing its quintessential perfection in all things.

Like Yahweh from Vertigo, his Creations are aspects but they act independently. All Creators are part of the Divine Presence but they act independent of it.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

I did not follow this, can someone link the summaries or is it just the OP?

This post i made summarises my arguments. If you have problems with it, can you discuss why?

Thank you for staying on the main topic.

I want people to slowly disect the following arguments closely so we can reach a conclusion.

---

---

In Final Crisis: Superman Beyond #1, as Main Supes is employed by Zillo Valla to protect the Multiverse. Upon entering Bleedspace, Zillo comments that Superman most probably does not comprehend his surroundings, and requires 4-dimensional vision to fully comprehend what he is experiencing.

If you order Final Crisis physically, you can get glasses named “Overvoid viewers" that allow the individual wearing them to view 4-dimensional perspective. The wording in both the description of these glasses and in comics, explicitly state that you are viewing from the perspective of a 4-dimensional entity, which is important.

More importantly, Zillo explicitly states to Superman that his Optical Range would also get affected and upgraded to experience Bleedspace. These two points are pretty integral for several different reasons, allow me to explain.

I will at least try to explain the general idea of the following fact. The images our eyes perceive are considered two-dimensional because they are formed on the flat surface of our retinas, consisting of height and width but lacking depth.

However, our brain processes visual cues like perspective, shading, and motion to create a vivid three-dimensional perception, allowing us to experience depth and the fullness of the visual world. It constructs a mental representation that transcends the flatness of the retinal images, resulting in our ability to perceive an immersive three-dimensional reality that allows us to see in a dimension higher then the one the images that reach out retinas are.

Where Optical range, and the Overvoid viewers come into play, is that they are without a shadow of a doubt, not referring to the translated images of our brains, the imagery perceived by an entity existing in 4-dimensions, but to the likewise, 2-D images that are given to Supermans retinas, and usually translated into 3-D with normal human cases.

The term "optical range" typically refers to the range of electromagnetic radiation that is visible to the human eye, rather than specifically referring to the images perceived before the brain processes them into three dimensions.

When we talk about the optical range, we are primarily referring to the wavelengths of light that our eyes can detect and respond to. These wavelengths are then captured by the eye's optics (cornea, lens, etc.) and form an image on the retina. The retina photoreceptors that convert the incoming light into electrical signals. These signals are then transmitted to the brain via the optic nerve for further processing and interpretation, including the construction of a three-dimensional perception of the visual scene.

Making the Bleed not limited by 4-dimensions, which becomes even more apparent, when you meet with the other two following arguments in support of a 4+ Dimensional Bleedspace.

The Bleed is explicitly stated to be a literal Hyperspace, (meaning; often conceptualized as additional dimensions that exist alongside the conventional spatial dimensions we are familiar with. This however, being a case of a Hyperspace in comparison to already 4-dimensional spacetime continuums) consistent with it being called the Bulk, a concept closely associated with a higher-D space encompassing universes. Ultimately making it inherently a 5-dimensional structure

And the best case for 5-D. When conversing with Doctor Multiverse, Rodney Rabbit comments that architectures within Bleedspace are shifting, because they are rotating through 5-dimensions in a fixed point within the Orrery of Worlds. This has a lot of shit to consider off the bat.

First, again, suggests that there is a dynamic transformation or movement within that dimension while maintaining a fixed reference point. And of course, lets not even forget that Grant clearly considers dimensions to be referring to higher metafictional dimensional perspectives looking down on the lower reality as a fictional comicbook. Literally existing within that space has to imply that you exist in a space that views the ordinary 4 dimensions as fictional.


All of the above ultimately leading me to believe that the Bleed is most definitely, without a shadow of a doubt, a 5-dimensional space. It is a Hyperspace encompassing spacetime continuums, it is requires 4-dimensional images being sent to the retina to merely comprehend, when a a brain actually usually translates said images to a higher, more complex perspective, and it has “
architectures” within the Orrery, within Bleedspace that rotate through 5-dimensions, also further opening up room for higher dimensional perspective within the Bleed.

Again, i wish, if you do have problems with 5-D Bleed, to tackle this arguments head on, giving closure to anyone who wishes to make a similar CRT in the future if this gets rejected.

 

[Xearsay]

Personally, i think the Bleed between universes should stay 2-C and its highest level flowing through every level of existence (minus the 6th Dimension)/the true form of the flaw is Low 1-C.

The bleed doesn’t flow through every level of existence. I already broke down why that isn’t true in the thread.

Also what is the “true form of the flaw”? The flaw is just the shattered jar that emerged in the Overvoid, which the Monitors called the Orrery of Worlds. It represents all possibility. I don't think it has a “true form.”

 

[Deagonx]

Alonik and Elizio make the most sense to me here.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Although I don't agree with Xeasey. I agree with his view on this true form or a bigger “Bleed” is a thing that is housed in every reality being an actual thing. We haven't seen Grant writing that suggests this.

 

[Elizio33]

Although I don't agree with Xeasey. I agree with his view on this true form or a bigger “Bleed” is a thing that is housed in every reality being an actual thing. We haven't seen Grant writing that suggests this.

While it's true that Grant Morrison didn't write that, this "bigger" or "higher" Bleed is most likely the Fifth Dimension, which is the imaginary-thought blood of the multiverse that flows between the realms and encompasses all planes of existence on the map of the multiverse.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

While it's true that Grant Morrison didn't write that, this "bigger" or "higher" Bleed is most likely the Fifth Dimension, which is the imaginary-thought blood of the multiverse that flows between the realms and encompasses all planes of existence on the map of the multiverse.

Which again has no correlation to what Synder said. From what we know Grant also does not support this view and because of that it makes this theory rather obsolete. We cannot just make assumptions because it fits pieces with no ground basis to confirm that it's true.

 

[Elizio33]

I don't think it's a manifestation. In Mattheis’s story, it was said everyone is dreaming to discover self-identity to be linked to the Oversoul that connects them all.

It was also said in JLD that all Creators or God are just concepts to a larger entity. That none could comprehend and is beyond them all. Light would be one of these “Creators” which the author said are just an aspect of the Divine Presence.

We also see this in Swamp Thing beyond the duality of Light and Darkness there is a God breathing its quintessential perfection in all things.

Like Yahweh from Vertigo, his Creations are aspects but they act independently. All Creators are part of the Divine Presence but they act independent of it.

Yeah, more like an aspect of the true God, but the Light is represented or interpreted differently in different cultures and religions. The Monitors see the Light as the Monitor-Mind. The New Gods see the Light as The Source. There is also this statement by Scott Snyder that The Presence is the same as The Source, which means that these three entities represents the Light but interpreted differently, they are in truth the exact same entity. I'm not referring to the true state of The Presence if you ask. I think if we add DeMatteis Cosmology, on an holistic perspective, the Light is the Creator and Pralaya is the Great Darkness, which makes sense imo. Anyway, we're off topic. We can continue this discussion elsewhere if you wish.

 

[Elizio33]

Which again has no correlation to what Synder said. From what we know Grant also does not support this view and because of that it makes this theory rather obsolete. We cannot just make assumptions because it fits pieces with no ground basis to confirm that it's true.

I see your point and i agree in some parts. Let's just say that the Fifth Dimension is a realm related to the Bleed and vice-versa but exist on a higher plane of existence.

Why I say there're related despite there're no official proof or claims? Because they're both the blood of multiverse. The Fifth Dimension is imagination. The Bleed fuels stories and Mandrakk extracting the Bleed rendering the stories meaningless, which is similar to what Mr. Mxyzptlk did when he'd unimagined the multiverse. This is why i say they're related but the Fifth Dimension is on a higher plane of existence.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

I see your point and i agree in some parts. Let's just say that the Fifth Dimension is a realm related to the Bleed and vice-versa but exist on a higher plane of existence.

The 5th Dimension is described as such because it reaches all parts of the Universe due to it being built on belief. It doesn't exist truy everywhere to connect all parts of Creation. This is why when Mxy was “unimagined everything” he started from a focal point, so destruction leads upwards from the Earth to the entire Multiverse. Which Alephues would use the missing energy to replace it with his version to skip upon the Judges to not notice the time missing from the Multiverse.

Anyways, what's more, important here is that the Bleed has been a part of the Multiverse in reference to the Orrery. The 5th Dimensions has never been stated to be everywhere but the places are somewhat where it floats because in all aspect of Creation does imagination exist. The Bleed isn't imagination it's rather the space between realities that flows through that.

Why I say there're related despite there're no official proof or claims? Because they're both the blood of multiverse. The Fifth Dimension is imagination. The Bleed fuels stories and Mandrakk extracting the Bleed rendering the stories meaningless, which is similar to what Mr. Mxyzptlk did when he'd unimagined the multiverse. This is why i say they're related but the Fifth Dimension is on a higher plane of existence.

Blood has been used in two different manners and I explained what the 5th Dimesnion is in correction to be the “blood” of the Multiverse.

The stories are reference only to the narratives in the Orrery which was his first target. We see the location of the Bleed existing between realities.

 

[Elizio33]

The 5th Dimension is described as such because it reaches all parts of the Universe due to it being built on belief. It doesn't exist truy everywhere to connect all parts of Creation. This is why when Mxy was “unimagined everything” he started from a focal point, so destruction leads upwards from the Earth to the entire Multiverse. Which Alephues would use the missing energy to replace it with his version to skip upon the Judges to not notice the time missing from the Multiverse.

Anyways, what's more, important here is that the Bleed has been a part of the Multiverse in reference to the Orrery. The 5th Dimensions has never been stated to be everywhere but the places are somewhat where it floats because in all aspect of Creation does imagination exist. The Bleed isn't imagination it's rather the space between realities that flows through that.

Blood has been used in two different manners and I explained what the 5th Dimesnion is in correction to be the “blood” of the Multiverse.

The stories are reference only to the narratives in the Orrery which was his first target. We see the location of the Bleed existing between realities.

I was just saying that the two are related without necessarily being the same thing.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

I was just saying that the two are related without necessarily being the same thing.

Ah, then we’ll just have to see what the others think. Honestly, this thread has swayed quite from the topic a couple of times and honestly, I think we need a general consensus here to close this thread. It

 

[Elizio33]

Ah, then we’ll just have to see what the others think. Honestly, this thread has swayed quite from the topic a couple of times and honestly, I think we need a general consensus here to close this thread. It

Yeah for now, I stay with my initial opinion. The Bleed is 4-D and should stay 2-C.

 

[Antvasima]

@Elizio33 @Deagonx

What do you think that we should do here?

 

[Antvasima]

@Elizio33 @Deagonx

What do you think that we should do here?

You as well, @Alonik .

 

[Alonik]

I don't know why y'all reated a mindset limited only to Morrison's vision, he is not the creator of the bleedspace, much less just because he didn't speak well we shouldn't ignore the whole development of the Bleed in comics before and post-final crisis. However, obviously this is not even the case, since i've already shown the fact that Morrison agrees that the Death of the New Gods is part of the canon of his cosmology, which means that he considered Bleed to be originate from the Source itself that is outside even the Monitor Sphere. In fact, let's even remember something here:

• Zillo Valla claims that the bleed "cannot be touched or held or bottled..." except by the monitor, who are masters of the overvoid.

This already demonstrates quite clearly that nothing below the Monitor Sphere can't even directly interact with the Bleed. Not to mention Zillo Valla keeping Ultima Thule with her heart through Bleed literally says:

• the glowing spark that power this craft through the overvoid... Is my heart. We are drifting, into the void... And there is but one way to replenish that beating engine, overman...
• The ultima thule's engines run on bleed... Bleed is life, if i'm right.

And if anyone come with the argument that Billy said "if i'm right", Zillo Valla confirmed his intelligence. One interesting thing to note, is that after Superman and Ultraman fall from the monitor spheres into the Multiverse it is specifically said that "Decelerating in a shower of discordant bleed."

This "To possess even a single drop of it is to control the ultimate power, capable of healing or annihilation." has also been used and developed in comics outside of Morrison, such as:

• The nth metal - The Unexpected Vol 3 6
• (Most of, if not all of Tynion and Snyder cosmology)

There are claims of Mandrakk of feeding on the Creation Above, or how he could "bleed heaven and hell dry".

Tha being said: Morrison's story is clear, and even if he hadn't written anything about it in that way, it's not like he's going to rule out most of the information that connects Bleed space to creation (which even in Superman Beyond he has done that).

 

[Alonik]

You as well, @Alonik .

I continue with my point about this, mainly because it is supported the idea even in Morrison's storyline, there is even no storyline that does not pass this idea, bleed as the ultimate power that drives or can destroy creation has a huge consistency in almost, if not every storyline that ever appeared.

 

[Robo432343]

So like
the bleed is obviously low 1-C, but it doesn't change anything significant??

 

[Antvasima]

Well, from what I recall from an interview I read with Morrison, Death of the New Gods was forced upon him by Dan Didiot and he couldn't figure out how it could logically fit with the Final Crisis event or the established nature of The Source.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

We can continue this discussion elsewhere if you wish.

Yes please

 

[NHTkenshin2]

The Bleed is 4-D and should stay 2-C.

Again, i humbly tell everyone who disagrees. If you have any problems with the summary below, express them please.

The entirety of the post below explains thoroughly why the Bleed between Universes, the one that is located within the Orrery, is undoubtedly Low 1-C.

@VeryGoofyToddler and @Deagonx specifically, you guys seem to like discussions. Can you provide a list of reasons this wouldn't work so we can give closure to this thread?

Thank you for staying on the main topic.

I want people to slowly disect the following arguments closely so we can reach a conclusion.

---

---

In Final Crisis: Superman Beyond #1, as Main Supes is employed by Zillo Valla to protect the Multiverse. Upon entering Bleedspace, Zillo comments that Superman most probably does not comprehend his surroundings, and requires 4-dimensional vision to fully comprehend what he is experiencing.

If you order Final Crisis physically, you can get glasses named “Overvoid viewers" that allow the individual wearing them to view 4-dimensional perspective. The wording in both the description of these glasses and in comics, explicitly state that you are viewing from the perspective of a 4-dimensional entity, which is important.

More importantly, Zillo explicitly states to Superman that his Optical Range would also get affected and upgraded to experience Bleedspace. These two points are pretty integral for several different reasons, allow me to explain.

I will at least try to explain the general idea of the following fact. The images our eyes perceive are considered two-dimensional because they are formed on the flat surface of our retinas, consisting of height and width but lacking depth.

However, our brain processes visual cues like perspective, shading, and motion to create a vivid three-dimensional perception, allowing us to experience depth and the fullness of the visual world. It constructs a mental representation that transcends the flatness of the retinal images, resulting in our ability to perceive an immersive three-dimensional reality that allows us to see in a dimension higher then the one the images that reach out retinas are.

Where Optical range, and the Overvoid viewers come into play, is that they are without a shadow of a doubt, not referring to the translated images of our brains, the imagery perceived by an entity existing in 4-dimensions, but to the likewise, 2-D images that are given to Supermans retinas, and usually translated into 3-D with normal human cases.

The term "optical range" typically refers to the range of electromagnetic radiation that is visible to the human eye, rather than specifically referring to the images perceived before the brain processes them into three dimensions.

When we talk about the optical range, we are primarily referring to the wavelengths of light that our eyes can detect and respond to. These wavelengths are then captured by the eye's optics (cornea, lens, etc.) and form an image on the retina. The retina photoreceptors that convert the incoming light into electrical signals. These signals are then transmitted to the brain via the optic nerve for further processing and interpretation, including the construction of a three-dimensional perception of the visual scene.

Making the Bleed not limited by 4-dimensions, which becomes even more apparent, when you meet with the other two following arguments in support of a 4+ Dimensional Bleedspace.

The Bleed is explicitly stated to be a literal Hyperspace, (meaning; often conceptualized as additional dimensions that exist alongside the conventional spatial dimensions we are familiar with. This however, being a case of a Hyperspace in comparison to already 4-dimensional spacetime continuums) consistent with it being called the Bulk, a concept closely associated with a higher-D space encompassing universes. Ultimately making it inherently a 5-dimensional structure

And the best case for 5-D. When conversing with Doctor Multiverse, Rodney Rabbit comments that architectures within Bleedspace are shifting, because they are rotating through 5-dimensions in a fixed point within the Orrery of Worlds. This has a lot of shit to consider off the bat.

First, again, suggests that there is a dynamic transformation or movement within that dimension while maintaining a fixed reference point. And of course, lets not even forget that Grant clearly considers dimensions to be referring to higher metafictional dimensional perspectives looking down on the lower reality as a fictional comicbook. Literally existing within that space has to imply that you exist in a space that views the ordinary 4 dimensions as fictional.


All of the above ultimately leading me to believe that the Bleed is most definitely, without a shadow of a doubt, a 5-dimensional space. It is a Hyperspace encompassing spacetime continuums, it is requires 4-dimensional images being sent to the retina to merely comprehend, when a a brain actually usually translates said images to a higher, more complex perspective, and it has “
architectures” within the Orrery, within Bleedspace that rotate through 5-dimensions, also further opening up room for higher dimensional perspective within the Bleed.

Again, i wish, if you do have problems with 5-D Bleed, to tackle this arguments head on, giving closure to anyone who wishes to make a similar CRT in the future if this gets rejected.

 

[Alonik]

Again, i humbly tell everyone who disagrees. If you have any problems with the summary below, express them please.

The entirety of the post below explains thoroughly why the Bleed between Universes, the one that is located within the Orrery, is undoubtedly Low 1-C.

@VeryGoofyToddler and @Deagonx specifically, you guys seem to like discussions. Can you provide a list of reasons this wouldn't work so we can give closure to this thread?

I hadn't seen that, but interesting that you posted the physical comic, I think we should explain that better. We should put that in Final Crisis it is only 4D, and in Multiversity Morrison retconned to 5D. If you will notice, in the physical scan where it talks about the vision of the Overvoid, it is the 4D vision, it is even the same vision of the The Thought Robot has in the monitor sphere. This also explains how Zillo Valla says that while they were propelling themselves through the bleed, they were in overvoid.

I was supposed to mention this earlier, but I forgot. I'm sleepy because I've been editing video all night, sorry. Also, here is the full scan for those who can't see it full properly:

​

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Multiversity Morrison retconned to 5D

Does this mean you agree with 5-D Bleed between universes in Multiversity or am i misinterpreting you?

it is the 4D vision, it is even the same vision of the The Thought Robot has in the monitor sphere.

We should most definitely not interpret CAS' vision in the Monitor Sphere as the same one he has in Bleedspace. Morrison has made it very clear he thinks the map gets increasingly more conceptual and archetypal as you reach the Void.

With the Monitor sphere itself having the primal forms of reality within it.

Also, the link isnt working

 

[Alonik]

Does this mean you agree with 5-D Bleed between universes in Multiversity or am i misinterpreting you?

Not necessarily.

We should most definitely not interpret CAS' vision in the Monitor Sphere as the same one he has in Bleedspace. Morrison has made it very clear he thinks the map gets increasingly more conceptual and archetypal as you reach the Void.

With the Monitor sphere itself having the primal forms of reality within it.

Also, the link isnt working

The 4D vision is literally said to be made of Cosmic Armor. And "being more conceptual" does not mean =/= less dimensional. Space and time in the monitor sphere more profound, aside from the fact that the bleedspace that Zillo Valla traveled was already the overvoid.

 

[Xearsay]

I don't know why y'all reated a mindset limited only to Morrison's vision, he is not the creator of the bleedspace, much less just because he didn't speak well we shouldn't ignore the whole development of the Bleed in comics before and post-final crisis. However, obviously this is not even the case, since i've already shown the fact that Morrison agrees that the Death of the New Gods is part of the canon of his cosmology, which means that he considered Bleed to be originate from the Source itself that is outside even the Monitor Sphere. In fact, let's even remember something here:

The only evidence you had that wasn’t taken out of context, pointed towards Bleed existing in the Godsphere. Which doesn’t prove your original point that Bleed exists in all layers of the Multiverse.

Furthermore, Morrison directly placed the Bleed in the Orrery meaning whatever notion established in DOTNG about the Bleed wasn’t carried on into his stories.

• Zillo Valla claims that the bleed "cannot be touched or held or bottled..." except by the monitor, who are masters of the overvoid.

This already demonstrates quite clearly that nothing below the Monitor Sphere can't even directly interact with the Bleed. Not to mention Zillo Valla keeping Ultima Thule with her heart through Bleed literally says:

While the Monitors did say this, it’s directly proven wrong at the end of Superman Beyond when Superman brings a drop of Bleed back into his world to save Lois Lane.

• “Nothing can hold or contain Bleed they said. They were wrong. Superman can.”

 

[NHTkenshin2]

And "being more conceptual" does not mean =/= less dimensional.

“Dimensions” in Grant Morrisons verse are not actual dimensions. They are R>F layers, though.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

“Dimensions” in Grant Morrisons verse are not actual dimensions. They are R>F layers, though.

Uh, no there is not. There's just dimensions ahead in terms of cardinality, not anything to suggest a full superiority. This is you just making your own headcanon.

 

[Deagonx]

pointed towards Bleed existing in the Godsphere. Which doesn’t prove your original point that Bleed exists in all layers of the Multiverse.

Even if it doesn't exist in all layers, the fact that it exists in layers beyond the Orrery is sufficient for the purpose of this thread, because it would not allow for scaling denizens of the Sphere above the Bleed.

While the Monitors did say this, it’s directly proven wrong at the end of Superman Beyond when Superman brings a drop of Bleed back into his world to save Lois Lane.

This is likely due to him being Superman, not because it isn't properly above the Orrery.

“Dimensions” in Grant Morrisons verse are not actual dimensions. They are R>F layers, though.

There are no R>F layers in this cosmology.