- 2,138
- 2,070
These ratings are ass imo, there is no way the Godheads are simply Orrery level when it has been implied numerous times the Sphere defines all aspects of the framework of the Material worlds.
There is also alot of integral aspects of the cosmology that seem to be missing, so i do want to at least bring them up here.
This should be very simple and doesn't need any complications, lets start with something more solid.
Heaven
- When traveling on the planet where Spectre is imprisoned, Zauriel, one of the angels of Pax Dei, claims time does not pass in Heaven | JLA #30
- After the destruction of Montevideo, Zauriel senses the deaths of millions, and the narrator describes his whereabouts (Heaven) as being beyond space and beyond time | DC One Million Vol. 1 #1
- Wonderworld exists at the very edge of space and time | JLA #31
- Metron also confirms this | JLA #36
- Metron has also compared entering Wonderworld as re-entering Time | JLA #16
- The Rock of Eternity however, exists outside of Space and time entirely | JLA #28
But in these scans, we seemingly get a different view:
So? Is this some form of contradiction maybe? Nope, look at this statement:
- Mxy straight up shows the entire Multiversity map and then tells the JL that the entire Multiverse (excluding the Source wall) exists in the Fourth Dimension, Time | Justice League Vol. 4 #19
Pretty simple, Heaven is described as being beyond space and time, which would seem to suggest that there is no time within Heaven at all. However, as the context points out, there are hints that suggest that Heaven may in fact have a dimension of time of its own. This would obviously imply that there is a layer of time within Heaven that is separate from the time dimension of the rest of the universe.
This isnt an inconsistent theme within the comics, considering we do know even the Monitor Sphere has time within it
- When time began manifesting within the Monitor Sphere, stories started having beginnings and endings | Final Crisis #1
Plato Brainrot
Yeah well, i was gonna bring it up one way or another.- Batman explicitly calls the Sphere of Gods a platonic archetypal world | Batman #702
- Batman requires the very essence of a bullet, calling the Original Bullet the blueprint of every bullet ever. Calling it the bullet that killed multiple famous individuals throughout history. Firing it across time within Apokolips | Batman #702
- Which can be used as further evidence that another higher dimension of time exists within the Sphere
Plato's philosophy of the Forms, which includes the idea of Platonic worlds or Forms, holds that the material world is a mere shadow or imperfect reflection of a perfect world of Forms or Ideas.
The quality of “Abstract" should make sense, the speed force represents the absolute limit of matter, beyond it is pure information where concepts and ideas alike live:
- The Speed force is the limit to matter | The Multiversity map
- Matter becomes pure information when reaching the Sphere beyond the Speed wall | Final Crisis #7
- Gods and new gods are sentient ideas that use concepts as weapons | Batman: The Return of Bruce Wayne #1
- Metron is the platonic concept behind all electric based phenomenon in the Material worlds | Inside the Mind of Grant Morrison
- In the Sphere, minor changes cause the entirety of existence to be remade. | JLA #15
- Upon entering, Batman noted everything started having a “thousand extra layers" of meaning | Batman #702
- Godheads within the Sphere interact with the material worlds through avatars and emanations | The Multiversity Guidebook: The Deluxe Edition
- When Orions Godhead died, an infinite amount of Orions across the Multiverse died | Final Crisis #6
- The Sphere is the source of the true power of Magic. | Justice League Dark Vol. 2 #10
- Magic shapes all aspects of existence, with any altering with it resulting in the destruction of everything | Justice League Dark and Wonder Woman: Witching Hour #1
- Magic is once again confirmed to be the most integral thing that shapes creation, with its destruction causing the destruction of everything | League Dark and Wonder Woman: Witching Hour #1
- Wonder Women of Earth-23 call the Gods “Universals" | Final Crisis #7
(DC Comics: The Anatomy of Metahuman)
“Platonism should be Unchanging, the Sphere isnt"
It is the claim that because the Sphere of Gods does indeed change, it immediately makes it not qualfiable for Platonism. Let me respond to this, considering i do think it is a pretty flawed argument.
So why did Plato believe Platonic concepts are unchangeable? Plato believed that Platonic concepts, also known as Forms, are unchangeable because they exist independently of the physical world, which is constantly changing and subject to decay. The Forms, however, are eternal, perfect, and abstract entities that underlie all phenomena, and they derive their existence and intelligibility from the world of Forms. For example, the Form of the Good is always good, and the Form of Justice is always just.
Plato interpreted the unchangeability of Platonism as something limited to the material world, as the Forms are not subject to change or decay, making them perfect and eternal. This is because they are independent of anything that happens in the physical world, and they are considered unchangeable because of their exteriority and dominion over the physical world.
However, when entering the platonic world (Sphere of the Gods), one is no longer independent, or inaccessible. This takes away the main attributes of why these concepts are considered unchangeable in the first place, as they now exist on the same level of existence as these concepts. Which does have pretty significant implications
As it would very well explain why unchangeablity simply doesn't work within this context here, the world of forms is not inaccessible here. In this fictional verse, entities can exit the speed force and become pure information and start actively affecting the world of forms.
So why did Plato believe Platonic concepts are unchangeable? Plato believed that Platonic concepts, also known as Forms, are unchangeable because they exist independently of the physical world, which is constantly changing and subject to decay. The Forms, however, are eternal, perfect, and abstract entities that underlie all phenomena, and they derive their existence and intelligibility from the world of Forms. For example, the Form of the Good is always good, and the Form of Justice is always just.
Plato interpreted the unchangeability of Platonism as something limited to the material world, as the Forms are not subject to change or decay, making them perfect and eternal. This is because they are independent of anything that happens in the physical world, and they are considered unchangeable because of their exteriority and dominion over the physical world.
However, when entering the platonic world (Sphere of the Gods), one is no longer independent, or inaccessible. This takes away the main attributes of why these concepts are considered unchangeable in the first place, as they now exist on the same level of existence as these concepts. Which does have pretty significant implications
As it would very well explain why unchangeablity simply doesn't work within this context here, the world of forms is not inaccessible here. In this fictional verse, entities can exit the speed force and become pure information and start actively affecting the world of forms.
“Platonism should be Eternal, the Sphere isnt”
DC Comics has always had some form of belief system functioning very similarly if not identically to Carl Jungs Collective Unconscious. Where everything seems to be bound by the beliefs of mortals/humans.
Neil Gaiman used this concept in A Dream of a Thousand Cats, which tells a story which depicts that originally cats were the dominant species on Earth, being giant beasts which hunted humans. However, the collected dream of a world where humans ruled over cats altered reality from its very beginning, making it so that humans were always larger than cats. Implying that Dreams have the power to shape reality
This logic extended up to the Sphere of Gods, where it is confirmed that Gods are essentially believed into existence via the dreams of humans. And that humans pretty much brought the Gods into existence through their beliefs
So of course, people have made the argument that this goes directly against one of Platos main attributes to Platonic concepts, their eternal nature.
Here is the big problem with that argument, it assumes that there is a specific point in time where the Gods came into existence. However, the Sphere of Gods is completely exterior to the Time of the material worlds, and the Gods exist outside of time itself. Therefore, the beliefs of humans shape entities that exist outside of time and view it in a nonlinear way.
In the DC Universe, dreams have the power to shape reality, and the belief in a God's existence that brought them into existence, would make them exist before time itself. This is because the belief system in the DC Universe is not bound by linear time like the material world, and instead operates on a nonlinear plane. Therefore, the argument that the belief system contradicts the eternal nature of Platonic concepts is flawed because it is based on a linear understanding of time, which does not apply to the realm of the Gods.
In essence, the Sphere of Gods is a realm that exists beyond the constraints of time and space, and the Platonic concepts that define it are still eternal because they exist outside of time itself. The belief system in the DC Universe does not contradict this eternal nature because it operates on a nonlinear plane and shapes entities that exist outside of time.
Which is precisely why, The Presence who was shaped by these dreams explicitly says he is Eternal. Because it has nothing to do with that entire idea.
Neil Gaiman used this concept in A Dream of a Thousand Cats, which tells a story which depicts that originally cats were the dominant species on Earth, being giant beasts which hunted humans. However, the collected dream of a world where humans ruled over cats altered reality from its very beginning, making it so that humans were always larger than cats. Implying that Dreams have the power to shape reality
This logic extended up to the Sphere of Gods, where it is confirmed that Gods are essentially believed into existence via the dreams of humans. And that humans pretty much brought the Gods into existence through their beliefs
So of course, people have made the argument that this goes directly against one of Platos main attributes to Platonic concepts, their eternal nature.
Response:
Here is the big problem with that argument, it assumes that there is a specific point in time where the Gods came into existence. However, the Sphere of Gods is completely exterior to the Time of the material worlds, and the Gods exist outside of time itself. Therefore, the beliefs of humans shape entities that exist outside of time and view it in a nonlinear way.
In the DC Universe, dreams have the power to shape reality, and the belief in a God's existence that brought them into existence, would make them exist before time itself. This is because the belief system in the DC Universe is not bound by linear time like the material world, and instead operates on a nonlinear plane. Therefore, the argument that the belief system contradicts the eternal nature of Platonic concepts is flawed because it is based on a linear understanding of time, which does not apply to the realm of the Gods.
In essence, the Sphere of Gods is a realm that exists beyond the constraints of time and space, and the Platonic concepts that define it are still eternal because they exist outside of time itself. The belief system in the DC Universe does not contradict this eternal nature because it operates on a nonlinear plane and shapes entities that exist outside of time.
Which is precisely why, The Presence who was shaped by these dreams explicitly says he is Eternal. Because it has nothing to do with that entire idea.
In summary, the above explanation reveals that the Sphere of Gods operates pretty similarly to Plato's World of Forms, where it shapes and determines all aspects of the material worlds, including the Dark, Anti-matter, and Positive worlds. This parallels the ideas of Carl Jung, who believed that Platonic concepts were products of the human mind, creating a paradoxical loop where humans create concepts and concepts, in turn, shape humans. Humans create to Gods, and Gods, in turn, shape humans.
Most importantly, the Sphere of Gods transcends the fundamental framework of reality and existence, viewing it as a mere shadow of its true nature.
Even if it is not a perfect representation of Platonic concepts, as indicated above, it is evident that the Sphere of Gods indeed defines the conceptual framework of the material worlds.
Metafiction brainrot
Pretty shocked we kinda forgot about this whole system. (Im sorry, im gonna have to post entire quotes for this bit for people to understand the full grasp of this concept better)Grant Morrison has explained numerous times in the past that his Orrery of worlds worked on a sort of philosophical look of the real world being within the cosmology and the very abstractions of characters like Superman kind of existing in the real world in some way.
He regularly explains this using geometry, calling all of comicbook fiction “Planetime", calling the real world “Cubetime" and having them all under Alex Ross' concept of Hypertime, which he believes to be some sort of mega-continuity encompassing all of the above
- Morrison: I used a lot of this M-Theory, brane multiverse stuff in Final Crisis. Doug Mahnke did a great 3-D drawing of an inter-brane corridor in the Superman Beyond segments -- and it ties in fine with how I see things operating on recursive, isomorphic scales, or dimensions. I'm ready to accept that our entire lives are playing out across a 2-D film as thin as soap bubble skin, since -- as above, so below -- we already have our own examples of such branes in the form of movie and TV screens, the pages of books and of comics. | Grant Morrison Talks Brainy Comics, Sexy Apocalypse
- The Multiverse is confirmed to work on M-theory | Final Crisis #5
- Barry Allen was fiction in some higher, but some undiscovered Hypertime world | The Multiversity Guidebook
- 52 new Universes were born and destroyed in Hypertime, no one remembered but the Monitors who kept track of them in the fictions of Earth-33 | The Multiversity Guidebook
- “The DC universe exists within our own universe,” he explains. “The map is actually showing you where I think the DC universe is, which is a two dimensional playground. The ground of being of the DC Universe is the white page before anything’s drawn on it. And then the white page suddenly uses its pristine unselfconsciousness and suddenly realizes, oh my god, somebody’s put a mark on me. What does the mark mean? The mark can mean any story, and suddenly this gigantic consciousness starts to imagine what stories would be like, and it sets up a barrier to protect itself from all this. The map of the multiverse is almost like a Buddhist map of the cosmos.” --- “For the DC universe, it’s quite simple,” he continues. “You don’t need grand theories. The universe exists on the second dimension and we can read their adventures with Superman going back to 1938, and you can put them all together and look at them from above. We can line up the future Superman with the original Superman and they can see each other, but we can see both of them. For me, all of the interesting stuff, this super string stuff, is happening between me and the same dimension as this material.” | Grant Morrison Merges String Theory with Superheroes in DC’s Multiversity
(Grant Morrison: Talking with Gods)
Grant best explains the different layers of Hypertime in these quotes, specifically discussing the nature of the very first layer of Hypertime, Planetime. The grand encompass of all comicbook continuities:
Now, taking the geometry into perspective, we go into the very next higher dimension. Cubetime, the dimension where you could look down on all of Planetime from a higher dimensional perspective, and view all of its stories from start to finish which Grant interpretated as seeing the Time dimensions of these stories nonlinearly:
In which Grant finally explains what he truly believes Hypertime to be, and confirms it is essentially is a storytelling device that allows all DC stories from different authors to be part of a single super-continuity of some sort:
- 1st: Is the All-Star line itself a separate part of Hyper-time?
- Grant: It could be regarded as that if you like. All-Star is a Hypertime Line which went underground for 20 years and is now coming back into the light.
- ‘Hypertime’ was the name Mark Waid gave to a concept of cosmic geometry I’d come up with, one bleary night in San Diego – given that the DCU has a Time LINE, the idea started as a consideration of what might exist beyond the Time Line, on the Time PLANE, or even in the mysterious Time CUBE . The theory allowed every comic story you ever read to be part of a larger-scale mega-continuity, which also includes other comic book ‘universes’ as well as the ‘real world’ we live in and dimensions beyond our own. It was also about how the world of fiction relates literally and geometrically to the world of ‘reality’. Some of its basic features have even been echoed in current cosmological ideas emerging from the field of superstring research and M-Theory. Skip the rest of this answer if you can’t be bothered with crazy talk.
- We all live in Hypertime – in our 3-Dimensional level of Hypertime, which can be seen as CUBE TIME in relation to the DCU’s LINE TIME, we can pick up comics and leaf through them, flipping in any direction – ‘time traveling’ back and forward through the ‘continuity’ like some new Doctor Who! I have a suspicion, based upon experience, that in HYPERCUBE TIME, there exist intelligences who stand in relation to our 3-D universe as we stand in relation to the 2-D universe of our comic book, film or TV heroes and who can leaf through our lives and times with the same ease we can leaf through Superman’s history but that’s just me. | Comic Book Biography: GRANT MORRISON
And It is pretty clear that contrary to popular belief, Earth-33 is not just a universe that has influence over all other realities, but a geometrically and dimensionally higher existence that looks down on all other universes as fictional comicbooks. With explicit confirmation that Earth-33 is the Real world, our world
- “GM: Oh yeah, very much. There's got to be a bad guy somewhere. I don't want to say too much about that, but certainly the thing that we're doing, which is the seventh issue of the series, it's called "Ultra Comics", and it's kind of a new character but it's based on Earth Prime, which is our Earth, which we re-named Earth 33 now just so it fits in the numerical structure. | Vampire Batman, Hypnotic Induction, And God: Grant Morrison Talks ‘The Multiversity’
- Everything begins with Point-time, the mark is all possiblity of what a linetime could become. Space A | Batman: The Return of Bruce Wayne #2
- Planetime represents the encompass of linetimes, and the higher dimension being made out of Linetimes. Plane B | Batman: The Return of Bruce Wayne #2
- Cubetime inhabitants view Planetime akin to flat disks. Space C | Batman: The Return of Bruce Wayne #2
However, before i get to our conclusions, i do want to bring up something else Grant has hinted at in interviews before. The existence of a “Hypercube-time". As the name implies, where Planetime is comicbooks, Cubetime is the real world, Hypercube-time is seemingly a world that views even us as fiction:
- “that in HYPERCUBE TIME, there exist intelligences who stand in relation to our 3-D universe as we stand in relation to the 2-D universe of our comic book, film or TV heroes and who can leaf through our lives and times with the same ease we can leaf through Superman’s history but that’s just me.” | Comic Book Biography: GRANT MORRISON
Information regarding Hypercube-time has been quite vague, but Grant has described it as being essentially the same as his Kathmandu experience, where he had a ******* insane psychedelic experience in Kathmandu, a city in Nepal (bald mfs love this stuff smh).
In his interview with James Gunn, he provided a detailed account of what he witnessed, describing it as the ability to perceive the universe in more than four dimensions within a higher mathematical space, similar to viewing a comic book.
Most importantly, he referred to what he saw as "the Bulk" and stated that he used his experience to inform the concept of comics as the best way to describe it, which became his Hypertime system. Hypercube-time represents the specific space he entered during that psychedelic experience.
Heres the big ol' problem, if Cubetime is Earth-33 in this context, we also know what the Bulk is in this context, its Hyperspace, its the Bleed. The space between universes. Which isnt inconsistent, as that we do actually know that within Bleedspace, exists structures like the House of Heros, which is confirmed to be a Pan-dimensional realm, presumably existing in all M-theory dimensions of the Multiverse. With it being pretty consistent that 6-Dimensional structures can indeed exist within the Material world.
Conclusion
Earth-33 should be Low Complex Multiverse level (5-D) - Exists on a higher geometrical perspective that views all universes as flat fiction.HYPERCUBE-time and Bleedspace should be Low Complex Multiverse level (6-D) - Encompasses all universes in a Bulk Hyperspace, encompasses Pan-dimensional structures such as the House of Heros, is implied to have connections with HYPERCUBE-time, and is compared to the Kathmandu experience, which is described as a higher mathematical space higher then our own that seemingly views both us and our 4-dimensions as fictions. Views Earth-33 as fictional. Likely spans over 6-Dimensional structures.
Sphere of Gods should be Complex Multiverse level (at least 7-D) - Represents the true platonic concepts making up everything that defines the Material Multiverse. Has a dimension of time even higher then the Material worlds. Gods have been confirmed to have range across all of Hypertime.
- Note: Grant Morrison has implied that HYPERCUBE-time might not particularly be the final dimension of Hypertime, considering he did state that Hypertime is all comicbooks, the real world, and dimension(s) beyond the Real world. Which is consistent with M-theory
Scaling
It should be made very clear that the actual amount of people that scale to Earth-33 is pretty limited. Earth-33 is mostly seen by people within the Multiverse as an absolutely exterior to the shit happening in the Multiverse type of realm.- Earth-33 is protected by a sort of Fictive membrane, which only ideas, comics and concepts can cross | The Absolute Multiversity
- Using the ideas from Earth-33, one can invade the entire Multiverse | The Multiversity
- The Gentry have come from the nowhere outside of the Multiverse | The Multiversity
- The Gentry have come from Earth-33 | The Multiversity
- Monitors record Crisises and the destruction of Multiverses within the fictions of Earth-33 | The Multiversity Guidebook
This will definitely not get rejected within 2 hours.
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