DBH abilities: Electric Boogaloo

[TheGodOfICE777]

I mean fair but I feel like people got off on a tangent about that because... this is Creation (and maybe Space-time Manipulation if you stretch it). I'm failing to see why this is Law Manipulation or Physics Manipulation in the first place since to my understanding, we don't slap that onto timeline creation to begin with.

The creation isn’t why it has that. Dark ki distorted the laws and physics and created a “rule” on reality (which is the same thing as law) that anything that happens in the Copy Universe happens in the Original Universe. So, the Copy Universe which was created from dark ki has it for that reason not necessarily just creating a Universe. The reason I was confused on the agreement was because the OP wasn’t trying to remove it, but only scale it to Dark Ki + Time Power.

 

[Planck69]

All that scan says is that both space-time's histories were distorted and connected. The only thing even implying anything else is the conditional existence of the copy universes and that's far closer to Causality Manipulation than anything else. That he mentions the word rules isn't in itself cast iron proof of Law Manipulation either since it seems to just be an explanation of what's happening thanks to the merged histories.

Honestly, all else aside, Glass is kinda right that this stuff needs more scrutiny to it to prevent Name Fallacy, like in the case of the "Instant Death" ability mentioned before.

 

[Planck69]

Currently, I'm fine with Causality Manipulation staying for Dark Ki (since that seems to me that it's what's happening instead of Physics and Law Manipulation). Neutral on Vector Manipulation. My stance is unchanged on the rest.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

All that scan says is that both space-time's histories were distorted and connected. The only thing even implying anything else is the conditional existence of the copy universes and that's far closer to Causality Manipulation than anything else. That he mentions the word rules isn't in itself cast iron proof of Law Manipulation either since it seems to just be an explanation of what's happening thanks to the merged histories.

Honestly, all else aside, Glass is kinda right that this stuff needs more scrutiny to it to prevent Name Fallacy, like in the case of the "Instant Death" ability mentioned before.

It being Causality manip doesn’t really contradict it being Law Manip, the way the rule works also is just Causality Manip. They’re not physically connected, but connected in the sense that whatever happens in the Copy Universe will happen in the Original Universe. It‘s stated the rule forces the Universe to copy whatever the Copy Universe does. If it‘s a rule that makes reality function a certain way how wouldn’t that be Law Manipulation?

Also, regarding the Instant Death ability, the name isn’t Instant Death the description of the ability tells us that its an instakill, the name of the ability is called End of Time.

(Also for the Law manip the op isn’t even trying to remove it he’s just arguing it should only be given with TP + Dark Ki)

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

It being Causality manip doesn’t really contradict it being Law Manip, the way the rule works also is just Causality Manip. They’re not physically connected, but connected in the sense that whatever happens in the Copy Universe will happen in the Original Universe. It‘s stated the rule forces the Universe to copy whatever the Copy Universe does. If it‘s a rule that makes reality function a certain way how wouldn’t that be Law Manipulation?

Also, regarding the Instant Death ability, the name isn’t Instant Death the description of the ability tells us that its an instakill, the name of the ability is called End of Time.

(Also for the Law manip the op isn’t even trying to remove it he’s just arguing it should only be given with TP + Dark Ki)

Insta kill can be achieved via many means. Here it's literally just EE.

 

[Planck69]

It being Causality manip doesn’t really contradict it being Law Manip, the way the rule works also is just Causality Manip. They’re not physically connected, but connected in the sense that whatever happens in the Copy Universe will happen in the Original Universe. It‘s stated the rule forces the Universe to copy whatever the Copy Universe does. If it‘s a rule that makes reality function a certain way how wouldn’t that be Law Manipulation?

What you described is again, Causality Manipulation (a surprisingly more decent example of it than what's currently used). My entire point is that you're basing Law Manipulation on a one-off mention of the world rules when it's used to explain what happened due to the connection and merging of both histories.

Also, regarding the Instant Death ability, the name isn’t Instant Death the description of the ability tells us that its an instakill, the name of the ability is called End of Time.

Thanks for the correction but the point stands regardless. I've noticed that some of these abilities look too much at the singular use of words instead of wider effects.

(Also for the Law manip the op isn’t even trying to remove it he’s just arguing it should only be given with TP + Dark Ki)

I am aware.

 

[Theglassman12]

@TheGodOfICE777 yeah, with time bird specifically, who isn't a normal time user with the fact that the lore of him is how his existence down to the eggs he hatches causes time to exist in the first place, something Chronoa, Demigra, Xeno trunks and others who have some access to time power lack. So this wouldn't be a time power thing, just something the bird itself can do since it's on a whole nother level.

I never argued Ziku world and the tokipedia are the same, my point is the fact that neither arguments remotely justify data and info hax in the slightest, especially when the former is just using the wifi connection in the real world we live in as an argument which, you'd need a lot of evidence that the time scrolls can actively mess with our own wifi network in the first place. Are you ignoring the fact that it's literally stated to be a very special edition by Tokipedia itself and that it's something specifically made by Fu to begin with? Meaning it's not something that would scale to normal time scrolls in the first place?

I'm not arguing against the fact that Time scrolls has nonexistent informational erasure, I'm arguing that it has both informational AND nonexistent erasure in the first place, that was my point. The fact that the nonexistent history is in the scroll does at least help with that idea so thank you for providing that scan, though it should've been on the page in the first place to avoid this confusion. As for conceptual erasure, literally what part of these random realms that lacks the concepts of time and space remotely mean that they can manipulate or erase concepts? None of these remotely imply concept hax for time power.

That's literally not how Acausality Negation works, Acausality doesn't render you unageable, it renders you immune to changes in the timeline, if this was Acausality Negation Fu should be erased via his past self dying, AKA a time paradox, if that's elaborated to that extent then you'd have an argument for Acausality Negation, but I'm not seeing it here.

Dude you're not refuting my points on the regen in the first place, I'm arguing against both the regen AND the regen negation, not just one.

That's still not death manipulation, a move being stated as an instant kill move, only for said move to be elaborated as just Existence erasure is not helping the case when that's not how death hax works.

Then those scans should be used for text manipulation, stop scan dumping on paragraphs upon paragraphs because hardly any of them remotely mentions anything about text being there.

I'm still not really seeing this scale to dark ki if it's reliant on time power in order to help out with this in the first place, especially if it's something that would take a long ass time and would essentially boil down to stupidly long prep time at best, giving this the benefit of the doubt and that this is only for dark ki.

@TheGreatBanana Vector Manipulation is stated to be both magnitude AND direction of things, God of War was argued for having vector hax via direction, but that got rejected due to it not being remotely close to how Vectors work in the first place, if you disagree with me you can ask KLOL since he and I had a long discussion about this.

Yeah uhh... what part of this proves paralysis inducement again when it's just further elaboration on Time Stop? You're literally describing timestop, this isn't paralysis inducement in the slightest.

@ProfectusInfinity I've said this to GodofICE but I'll say it again, how exactly would this prove that it fully scales to dark ki when even giving the benefit of the doubt that this fully scales to it, it requires massive amounts of prep time to do so, let alone scale to anyone's resistances in the first place? The fact that time power is needed for this to happen at all makes me question this fully to Dark Ki and not their fused power.

Yeah and in said post where I was arguing for several months that ended up getting rejected if you want to use that old thread as evidence as Medeus, Maverick and I rejected Causality hax for the bardock argument, and only Griffin agreed with it at the end, so not really a point to make when it got rejected there. As for it being accepted, what new arguments was remotely used? Because if it's just the same Bardock argument, then I'm in full agreement on it getting removed as it wasn't enough last time, why is it accepted now unless new evidence is brought up?

And what part of Dark Shenron doing this points to this being reality warping when no statements are alluded to be such? I've already talked about the Copy Universe, I'm not gonna repeat myself again.

Direction is not Vectors, it's only a small part of what even makes vectors, and again, God of War had Vector manipulation be an argument for a while due to souls being comprised of direction, but that got rejected due to it not being actual vectors in the first place, as for the air pressure thing, that's not an argument unless you wanna push for air and gravity manipulation, which isn't what vectors are.

@BestMGQScalerEver I'm fine with it being Time based erasure, I just have an issue with this being argued for death hax.

@Hasty12345 Fine by me if the DBH guys wanna compile all of their points since not everything on my OP is being addressed in the first place.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

@TheGodOfICE777 yeah, with time bird specifically, who isn't a normal time user with the fact that the lore of him is how his existence down to the eggs he hatches causes time to exist in the first place, something Chronoa, Demigra, Xeno trunks and others who have some access to time power lack. So this wouldn't be a time power thing, just something the bird itself can do since it's on a whole nother level.

I never argued Ziku world and the tokipedia are the same, my point is the fact that neither arguments remotely justify data and info hax in the slightest, especially when the former is just using the wifi connection in the real world we live in as an argument which, you'd need a lot of evidence that the time scrolls can actively mess with our own wifi network in the first place. Are you ignoring the fact that it's literally stated to be a very special edition by Tokipedia itself and that it's something specifically made by Fu to begin with? Meaning it's not something that would scale to normal time scrolls in the first place?

I'm not arguing against the fact that Time scrolls has nonexistent informational erasure, I'm arguing that it has both informational AND nonexistent erasure in the first place, that was my point. The fact that the nonexistent history is in the scroll does at least help with that idea so thank you for providing that scan, though it should've been on the page in the first place to avoid this confusion. As for conceptual erasure, literally what part of these random realms that lacks the concepts of time and space remotely mean that they can manipulate or erase concepts? None of these remotely imply concept hax for time power.

That's literally not how Acausality Negation works, Acausality doesn't render you unageable, it renders you immune to changes in the timeline, if this was Acausality Negation Fu should be erased via his past self dying, AKA a time paradox, if that's elaborated to that extent then you'd have an argument for Acausality Negation, but I'm not seeing it here.

Dude you're not refuting my points on the regen in the first place, I'm arguing against both the regen AND the regen negation, not just one.

That's still not death manipulation, a move being stated as an instant kill move, only for said move to be elaborated as just Existence erasure is not helping the case when that's not how death hax works.

Then those scans should be used for text manipulation, stop scan dumping on paragraphs upon paragraphs because hardly any of them remotely mentions anything about text being there.

I'm still not really seeing this scale to dark ki if it's reliant on time power in order to help out with this in the first place, especially if it's something that would take a long ass time and would essentially boil down to stupidly long prep time at best, giving this the benefit of the doubt and that this is only for dark ki.

@TheGreatBanana Vector Manipulation is stated to be both magnitude AND direction of things, God of War was argued for having vector hax via direction, but that got rejected due to it not being remotely close to how Vectors work in the first place, if you disagree with me you can ask KLOL since he and I had a long discussion about this.

Yeah uhh... what part of this proves paralysis inducement again when it's just further elaboration on Time Stop? You're literally describing timestop, this isn't paralysis inducement in the slightest.

@ProfectusInfinity I've said this to GodofICE but I'll say it again, how exactly would this prove that it fully scales to dark ki when even giving the benefit of the doubt that this fully scales to it, it requires massive amounts of prep time to do so, let alone scale to anyone's resistances in the first place? The fact that time power is needed for this to happen at all makes me question this fully to Dark Ki and not their fused power.

Yeah and in said post where I was arguing for several months that ended up getting rejected if you want to use that old thread as evidence as Medeus, Maverick and I rejected Causality hax for the bardock argument, and only Griffin agreed with it at the end, so not really a point to make when it got rejected there. As for it being accepted, what new arguments was remotely used? Because if it's just the same Bardock argument, then I'm in full agreement on it getting removed as it wasn't enough last time, why is it accepted now unless new evidence is brought up?

And what part of Dark Shenron doing this points to this being reality warping when no statements are alluded to be such? I've already talked about the Copy Universe, I'm not gonna repeat myself again.

Direction is not Vectors, it's only a small part of what even makes vectors, and again, God of War had Vector manipulation be an argument for a while due to souls being comprised of direction, but that got rejected due to it not being actual vectors in the first place, as for the air pressure thing, that's not an argument unless you wanna push for air and gravity manipulation, which isn't what vectors are.

@BestMGQScalerEver I'm fine with it being Time based erasure, I just have an issue with this being argued for death hax.

@Hasty12345 Fine by me if the DBH guys wanna compile all of their points since not everything on my OP is being addressed in the first place.

Okay I got a little bit confused by what you were arguing in the OP, but now I’m more aware since you’ve elaborated. We can compile all the points in the OP in a single post, as you suggested as well.

Emiya has work though, so we’ll have to wait until he’s done to compile all the points.

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

Air pressure/gravity manipulation
"Yeah this is textbook vector manipulation"

You know, this snide would be tremendously more impactful outside a context where an ability was called the directional manipulation of space-time.

Direction is not Vectors, it's only a small part of what even makes vectors, and again, God of War had Vector manipulation be an argument for a while due to souls being comprised of direction

Yeah, vectors comprise direction and magnitude. Aeos was controlling the directions of the air/gravity in the environment, and given that she could increase its force, she must've been controlling their magnitude too.

Literally everything you listed can be considered a separate ability (and is listed as a separate ability, for the record). There's no reason to slap reality warping on there too.

In other words, you're admitting the aforementioned feats fall under the umbrella of reality warping hax, but think its redundant to mention the same feat multiple times for the sake of fleshing out the abilities list? That's strictly a matter of personal preference then.

I'm still not really seeing this scale to dark ki if it's reliant on time power in order to help out with this in the first place, especially if it's something that would take a long ass time and would essentially boil down to stupidly long prep time at best, giving this the benefit of the doubt and that this is only for dark ki.

Wouldn't this ability just require a non-combat applicable note then?

Concept Hax: So ignoring how more than half of this paragraph long explanation feels like nothing burgers as it just repeats stuff unrelated to Conceptual hax, the only thing that remotely mentions concept hax is the fact that there's a dimension that isn't a part of the world or has a different concept of space and time, which doesn't remotely prove anything about Time Power creating or altering concepts in the first place, especially if it's not a part of the world in the first place so why would this remotely count for time scrolls if it's not a part of the worlds the scrolls maintain? The rest of the scans is just time power sustaining the timelines/dimensions which doesn't remotely help for concept hax, the fact that Janemba is the manifestation of evil, but absolutely nothing about this remotely is elaborated by him being an abstract concept beyond just him being infected by the impurity from souls in the soul cleansing machine, and that it maintains order, which isn't Conceptual hax in the slightest unless it's elaborated to Time Power controlling the concept of order itself.

• Regarding the "it's not a part of the world" point, the subspace is the space between the dimensions of the macrocosm that contains the Sugoroku space, Teleportation Zone, and Room of Spirit and Time. In this thread, the HTC was reintroduced into the macrocosm precisely due to the subspace scan. It is indeed, part of the existence encompassed by the time scrolls. If the subspace that contains the Sugoroku Space and HTC were a nebulous space outside the multiverse, the HTC wouldn't be part of the macrocosm right now.
• Translation of the subspace scan by Executor.
  
• The reason why the subspace was used for the concept manipulation justifications is because time power is an all-encompassing energy that comprises all of existence, which means its ability to create the subspace, an area with no concept of space-time, confirms that it maipulates space-time down to the conceptual level.
• The purpose of mentioning Janemba's abstract existence in this blog was to illustrate the nature of evil as a concept in Dragon Ball, in order to provide context for Sealas's statement of being able to rewrite [the independent concept of] evil with time power.
• "Most of the scans are just about sustaining timelines" is utterly misrepresenting the justifications. A concept is an abstract essence that shapes a part of reality, and the blog explained why time power is conceptual in nature. I can't say too much about this point, as this retort is insufficient, since it fails to address the premises or conclusions laid out.

Law Manipulation: So why exactly is Time Power being scaled to this ability through something Tokitoki himself does? Who's a very unique being due to the fact that his eggs not only create timelines when hatched but he also maintains them constantly unlike other time users who do not remotely have that whatsoever? Especially when he has his own page separate from time power and not even the Supreme Kai of time herself remotely scales to the stuff he specifically does at all? Other than that, the attack being named "law of time" is an obvious name fallacy and you'd need more elaboration on this to be legit "I can control the laws of time", otherwise Android Saga Vegeta would've had 3-A and higher ratings a while ago because of his "Big Bang Attack". This should at best only be time bird specific, and nothing more.

The argument about the baseline abilities not necessarily scaling to TokiToki's law manipulation makes sense, but you're forgetting the other justification in that time power is an all-encompassing force that sustains and creates all of space-time, including the Afterlife which has distinct metaphysical laws governing it in contrast to the Living Universe where things follow the laws of science.

Immortality: Just like with Law hax, why is the main argument for time power users having immortality stemmed completely from Tokitoki? Who's the only one who remotely has any form of statements on his existence being tied to time itself with the lore of him hatching an egg and said egg birthing a new Tokitoki and a new timeline as a result? Same argument with Mechikabura as that's him absorbing the time bird, which is a whole different beast from normal time power. Same with law hax, should exclusively be for time bird at best.

Uh..... there seems to be a misunderstanding here. No one ever said time power users automatically held eternal life, only that they could bestow it, hence why this immortality is listed as a subset of time power's power bestowal.

Moving on:

Reality Warping: This is the same arguments in the past which I've refuted before but I'll say this again, nothing there remotely mentions Time Power has reality warping effects, at best it has subjective reality stuff with the "take inner thoughts and make it a real timeline" so that needs to be removed unless there's other scans to better justify this being reality warping.

Reality Warping & Subjective Reality: Time Power allows its users to govern Time and control all space-time, dimension, reality itself, and warp them in multiple ways. Time Energy which is a basis of Time Power is capable of distorting or creating new timelines based on one's desires & thoughts, with said timeline reflecting those desires & thoughts.

How in the world is controlling space-time, dimensions, and reality to the point of demonstrably remaking existence according to one's desires "not enough evidence" of reality warping??? I genuinely don't understand.

Void Manipulation: Yeah barely anything here remotely hints at controlling literal nothingness, having an ability to sustain timelines and erase them doesn't automatically mean you get void hax, that's textbook definition NLF where you push the feat to the most extreme with little to no evidence that would be the case at all.

Once again, you're misrepresenting the argument and the core reasoning behind describing time power as an all-encompassing energy that sustains and creates all timelines. We're pushing that to the extreme? The World of Void is explicitly recorded on time scrolls, as is the subspace since it exists under the macro-cosmology. Why shouldn't the power of time which creates time and physical reality be able to create and manipulate the substance of the aforementioned voids, which fall under the power's dominion?

Stuff I mostly agree with (as of now)​

Dimensional Manipulation: This is not Dimensional Manipulation, period, nothing about this remotely mentions controlling and warping dimensional planes like how the page itself suggests, it's just the old Higher Dimensional Manipulation argument and I don't get why this got added back in the first place.

I'm fine with this. I agreed with the justifications before since they described "timelines being flattened," but looking over them again, that word isn't actually mentioned. I don't see why timelines being reduced to pieces would constitute dimensional manipulation and not regular space-time destruction without clear-cut evidence of these timelines becoming literal 2-D objects, which was argued previously.

Paralysis Inducement: The fact that the freezing ability is specifically a time stop ability doesn't make this paralysis inducement, it's just timestop simple as that, don't really get why this was pushed.

I agree. Paralysis, as defined in most dictionaries, implies a loss of movement due to certain kinds of physical pressure like poison, injury, illness, etc. Stopping the effects of time on a directed object is different from that. I've heard some DBH supporters argue in the past that time power can inflict "paralysis" as a named status effect in-game, so if that's true, I'd rather find myself disagreeing with this particular ability downgrade.

Death Manipulation: Why is the name of the attack being called an instant kill move a justification for Death hax? Especially when we literally see it delete someone, which is NOT what Death Hax is supposed to be? Unless there's actual explicit statements of time power being able to inflict death, this needs to go.

I agree. The End of Time ability's description should be placed under the existence erasure justifications. Causing death via indrect means or other abilities isn't death manipulation unless those other abilities are depicted as aftereffects and "inducing death" is the primary function of said ability. For instance: "This technique brings death upon contact, say goodbye to your soul" is different from "This technique will reduce your soul to nothingness, say goodbye to the living world." The former depicts death inducement as the primary effect, while the latter doesn't.

Resistance to Dimensional Travel, Teleportation and Time Travel: How in the world is any of this abilities that can be resisted against? Because none of these abilities are by design something to be resisted, BFR is the only thing you can argue can be resisted when you're forcing someone to be warped somewhere else, these are abilities you use on yourself to get to a place, so it doesn't make any sense, this needs to go.

Agree FRA.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

God damn, bro's getting cooked. @ProfectusInfinity makes sense to me.

 

[Killerdrone123]

My bro profectus cooked I disagree fra

 

[Robo432343]

there is no way bro is using chatGPT

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

there is no way bro is using chatGPT

This already has a translation made by the executor

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

there is no way bro is using chatGPT

ChatGPT is genuinely a good translation tool capable of explaining exact context clues, something a machine translation can't do. Bing AI is even better, so they should be using that instead.

 

[Delta333]

The argument about the baseline abilities not necessarily scaling to TokiToki's law manipulation makes sense, but you're forgetting the other justification in that time power is an all-encompassing force that sustains and creates all of space-time, including the Afterlife which has distinct metaphysical laws governing it in contrast to the Living Universe where things follow the laws of science.

Once again, you're misrepresenting the argument and the core reasoning behind describing time power as an all-encompassing energy that sustains and creates all timelines. We're pushing that to the extreme? The World of Void is explicitly recorded on time scrolls, as is the subspace since it exists under the macro-cosmology. Why shouldn't the power of time which creates time and physical reality be able to create and manipulate the substance of the aforementioned voids, which fall under the power's dominion?

This will just fall down creation feat, as the page says that it is the ability to create something without manipulating it, which is exactly the case here (they show no feat of manipulating the law in afterlife or the nothingness in the world of void). Plus all of these are indirectly created through the creation of all reality as opposed to directly creating it. We do not allow, for example, a character that can create the universe will have practically almost all powers in the wiki (range from abstraction such as law, causality, concept; to physical aspects like plant, earth, metal etc).

 

[StekFence]

Yeah, vectors comprise direction and magnitude. Aeos was controlling the directions of the air/gravity in the environment, and given that she could increase its force, she must've been controlling their magnitude too.

Anyone can also control the direction of their fist and its force

 

[StekFence]

In this case, magnitude refers to measurements of size rather then of force btw.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Anyone can also control the direction of their fist and its force

This isn't the same thing, you aren't manipulating the vectors of the energy that comes out of your fist, you are generating force, not manipulating it.

 

[ChoursDropoff]

You can put me on disagree I think the abilities look fine.

 

[StekFence]

This isn't the same thing, you aren't manipulating the vectors of the energy that comes out of your fist, you are generating force, not manipulating it.

In the most literal sense, I’m pretty sure I’m right because moving an arm changes it’s magnitude and it’s direction.

On a serious note, Looking at the scan for vector manipulation on time power tho, I think it should become either limited or just listed as a use for space and time manipulation since it only effects those things, and not say, energy.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

In the most literal sense, I’m pretty sure I’m right because moving an arm changes it’s magnitude and it’s direction.

On a serious note, Looking at the scan for vector manipulation on time power tho, I think it should become either limited or just listed as a use for space and time manipulation since it only effects those things, and not say, energy.

This is a strange argument. Mainly coz it was stated pretty clearly that it was manipulation of direction by Demigra that utilizes force as well as direction on the target. So it being Vector Manipulation makes sense to me atleast as Directional Manipulation and Vector Manipulation are somewhat similar by definition but just with a twist of magnitude here which was shown when Demigra was being "pushed" down.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

In the most literal sense, I’m pretty sure I’m right because moving an arm changes it’s magnitude and it’s direction.

It only changes direction because you generate force against it by your own movement, and the magnitude doesn't exist until the first comes into contact into something, again you are generating force, not manipulating already existing forces. These are two different things. Blowing on air generates force that pushes it in another direction for a split second, that's not a vectorial manipulation

 

[StekFence]

It’s pretty clear the direction of spacetime is changed, I just don’t know how that’s listed on the wiki usually.

 

[StekFence]

that's not a vectorial manipulation

Alright let me be clearer. When I say literally, I mean outside of the wiki, not trying to say people have superpowers. The same way that humans can manipulate their temperature by sweating but we don’t give everybody that ability on the site

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Alright let me be clearer. When I say literally, I mean outside of the wiki, not trying to say people have superpowers. The same way that humans can manipulate their temperature by sweating but we don’t give everybody that ability on the site

Yeah, when someone moves their fist, they are applying a force. This force is a vector because it has both magnitude (how hard the fist is moving) and direction (where the fist is moving). If the person changes the speed or direction of their fist, they are changing the magnitude or direction of the force vector. “Manipulating the vectors” refers to performing mathematical operations on vectors, such as addition, subtraction, scalar multiplication, dot product, or cross product.
You can't get this just by applying force.

if you have two force vectors, you can add them together to get a resultant force vector. This is done by placing the vectors head-to-tail and drawing a new vector from the tail of the first vector to the head of the second vector. This operation doesn’t have a direct physical analogy to moving your fist - you can’t “add” two punches together in the same way. So even then, you are incorrect, and this hardly proves anything in this discussion

 

[StekFence]

So even then, you are incorrect, and this hardly proves anything in this discussion

As I said, this was not said in seriousness. In consideration of that, I beg that you spare my life
i do appreciate the correction tho

 

[Theglassman12]

@TheGodOfICE777 Fine by me, after my response to Profectus I'll wait for you guys to make a full response and we can go from there.

@ProfectusInfinity How is that in anyway shape or form manipulating magnitude when they never once mention magnitude being manipulated in the first place? Especially with no statements on such a thing being possible.

Assuming they can do this feat on its own, which again has no mention with the time power scan, plus the beerus champa stuff doesn't remotely tell me anything about dark ki creating a new universe with its own laws that messes with another universe.

Did you seriously ignore half of my points? Because I also said there's no elaboration on Time Power manipulating or controlling concepts at all when subspace has little to no connection with time power in the first place. The Janemba part was already tackled in the past by the old thread, this doesn't mean it's a concept at all, being the manifestation of evil doesn't automatically mean you're a conceptual being, especially with no elaboration on this, especially with someone like Janemba who doesn't have any statements of being immortal through the concept of evil or manifesting the concept of evil shown at all.

can't say too much about this point, as this retort is insufficient, since it fails to address the premises or conclusions laid out.

So like how you failed to address my entire point on how nothing here's remotely mentioned for time power actually manipulating concepts at all? Ok.

Ok, you just described creation at best, they're not manipulating laws here with those statements, especially the latter statement which has nothing at all to do with laws whatsoever so again, this at best would only be a Tokitoki feat and not a time power thing.

You're still using Time Bird as an example of immortality through time power, which again is NOT something normal time users have shown to have with how he functions, and the Demigra stuff has little to no context on if he's using time power for this or his dark ki or some combination so this doesn't help your case.

Controlling space-time is just space-time manipulation, pushing this to be something completely different is not an argument to be used here. Yeah, based on one's desires, is just subjective reality at best, that's not what reality warping is in the slightest, as for the dimensions stuff, it just has statements of maintaining dimensions, which is a stabilization AP feat at best and nothing for grounds for reality warping.

Creation doesn't grant you manipulation by default, again if you're going to push this to the extreme, then anyone who can warp space and time can have plant manipulation, radiation manipulation, matter manipulation, elemental manipulation, blood and bone manipulation, among many others because reality and timelines just happens to have these things that exist, with little to no evidence you're actively controlling these aspects beyond just a creation feat. Same with the whole world of void part as they're not shown manipulating the literal void however they want so why would they scale to this in the first place?

I'll let you guys compile all of your points into one post and then we'll work from there.

 

[Planck69]

Just make two mega posts on each side then ping staff, else this will go on endlessly.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I'm fine with Causality Manipulation and Vector Manipulation staying FRA.

Aside from those I agree with the removals.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

@Theglassman12

Law Manipulation: Regarding this part, the reason why this scales to Time Power and not just Toki Toki is because Time Power (Time Energy) is the thing that created Time (Toki-Toki) itself. Time Energy creates the thing that regulates Time itself. Also, Time Power users and Toki Toki use the same power source of Time Energy. I’m not quite sure what you were referring to in the OP when you said TP users didn’t have whatever Toki Toki had.

Immortality: This is the same thing, Toki Toki used Time Power to bestow immortality. Demigra used Time Power to bestow immortality. There isn’t different types of Time Power it’s just the manipulation of Time Energy.

Information (Type 2) & Data Manipulation: Tokipedia is never called a special edition of the Time Scrolls. Tokipedia is called a Time Rift edition, as it records specifically time rifts. The normal Time Scrolls can do this as well. Here is scans of Time Scrolls recording time rifts which is the main function of Tokipedia.








21:13-22:11
Elder Kai uses a scroll to travel to a time and confirmed Goku Black’s rift was a scythe rift.

The Time Scrolls and Tokipedia function the same. The function of the Tokipedia is to record rifts in time, and Time Scrolls have clear feats of being able to do the same e.g. Goku Black's time rift which the Elder Kai even explicitly confirmed to be a rift in time. (and more examples shown above)
It's not just stated to be an accurate replica, but it's also shown to have the same function as the Time Scrolls which is recording time rifts. I also want to emphasize once again it’s stated he accurately made a replica, so it’s literally stated to accurately have the same functions.

Regarding the Ziku World it is stated to be made out of that and it’s stated that the networks draw the boundaries of the Ziku world. Also, if the Ziku World is just an online thing you can only do in the real world. Then, why are characters able to enter, affect, and manipulate the Ziku World?

Informational, Nonexistent Erasure: Informational Erasure comes from being able to erase a Ziku World, which is a space-time. Also, being able to erase time scrolls which I explained why they scale to Tokipedia above. Nonexistent Erasure I assume you’re fine with the Nonexistent Erasure and it’s aspects, since you said that the scans I sent better helped you understand, but if you don’t just clarify Glass.

Void Manipulation: I assume you’re fine with this now too from your earlier posts, but you can reclarify Glass.

Acausality Negation: So, dragging someone who was outside of time/causality, and then dragging them back into causality and affecting them with time based attacks isn’t Acausality Negation. I’m just confused on why affecting a type 4 with time paradox would show negation.

Immortality/Regen Negation: Those scans were for High Godly restoration, the negation comes from being able to nullify the restoration ability. The reason why it’s High Godly Restoration is because TP’s EE erases you on a couple fundamental levels. The Regeneration Negation comes from nullifying the immortality of someone with High Godly Regeneration (Mechikabura). The Keysword was able to nullify his regeneration once it used TP. I’m not sure if you disagree with restoration and restoration negation I would like clarification on that.

Death Manipulation: The argument for this was that it’s specified to kill you, and according to the page it qualifies if its an inducement of death and the other affects being the aftereffects, but if we misinterpreted it, it could probably be removed.

Text Manipulation: I assume you’re fine with this considering your reply to me, but the scans were literally on the page. There’s an explanation along with scans. It’s not really our fault that you didn’t read the page. Also, taking a quick peek at the time scroll page. Under the text manip page there’s a hyperlink on the wrod text that shows you the scans I sent. So, you just didn’t read the page, as it’s literally just a short paragraph. Also, the history written all over it part is hyperlinked too. I’m just mentioning this because you said we didn’t have these scans on the time scroll page.

Causality & Probability Manipulation: I’m confused on your argument against this. So, manipulating events, altering the outcome of events, undoing alterations of events, and making things go back to its initial state aren’t causality manipulation? All of this is in the Time power page at the moment. Also, making all types of possibilities overflow isn’t Probability Manipulation?

Law, Physics & Causality Manip: So, you conceded that the creation and distorting the laws don’t require Time Power, but the time is reduced. We don’t know how long it would take without it, but it doesn’t mean Time Power is necessary. Also, the main thing is that it distorted the Copy Universe making it do that not so much the creation, but the creation would’ve happened without TP either way.
The reason the Dark Shenron stuff got accepted again is because the reason it was removed was faulty in the first place. Also, some of the staff you said agreed with you in the thread a year ago, agreed with the addition of DS. We said it was Causality Manipulation not RW as well.

Vector Manipulation: Why are you comparing GoW souls changing direction of Afterlife to DBH characters changing the direction of spacetime?


I’m leaving Concept Hax to Emiya, but I don’t really like how you said you were gonna ignore most of the Concept Hax explanation because you said it didn’t contribute anything to CM, but didn’t explain why it didn’t.

 

[Spectra_Schiffer]

looks good

 

[LordGinSama]

Letting glass man cook FRA. Tbh this always seemed like random additions imo for the sake of upgrades.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Letting glass man cook FRA.

Don't let bro cook ever again, most of his complaints have been outright debunked already, especially about Vector Manipulation. Not to mention, he seems to be going off his own personal standards instead of the wiki's standards imo, so no.

 

[LordGinSama]

Don't let bro cook ever again, most of his complaints have been outright debunked already, especially about Vector Manipulation. Not to mention, he seems to be going off his own personal standards instead of the wiki's standards imo, so no.

It's only "debunked" if staff agree with said debunk. Which from what I'm seeing they haven't.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

It's only "debunked" if staff agree with said debunk. Which from what I'm seeing they haven't.

"2+2 is only 4 if Staff agree with it".

It's not a subjective topic, use your mind instead of relying on Staff votes, it's not uncommon for Staff to be often outright wrong.

 

[Planck69]

I hate having to say this cause it sounds really snobby but staff are the ones who decide a revision passing or not and we're more or less at the threshold of that here.

 

[LordGinSama]

"2+2 is only 4 if Staff agree with it".

First of all, let's not go there with strawman arguments. I never said they can't be wrong, but in my opinion in this case it's correct for the removal of CM Type 1.

It's not a subjective topic, use your mind instead of relying on Staff votes, it's not uncommon for Staff to be often outright wrong.

Read above.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

I hate having to say this cause it sounds really snobby but staff are the ones who decide a revision passing or not and we're more or less at the threshold of that here.

Yeah but that doesn't necessarily mean their decision is correct.
That depends if Staff are bent by having their original stances challenged or not, if they're reasonable or not.

In case of the discussion in place, a Staff might not even look at the replies when casting a vote. Glassman complaining about Vector Manipulation was based on inaccurate information and there's no way around that. Even if Staff ultimately approve of his complaints.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

strawman arguments

You said it can only be as it is, if the particular party agrees with it. Which is not true. But let us not dive into semantics.

 

[Planck69]

Yeah but that doesn't necessarily mean their decision is correct.
That depends if Staff are bent by having their original stances challenged or not, if they're reasonable or not.

In case of the discussion in place, a Staff might not even look at the replies when casting a vote. Glassman complaining about Vector Manipulation was based on inaccurate information and there's no way around that. Even if Staff ultimately approve of his complaints.

If staff ultimately approve of this then the agreed upon changes will pass anyway. Yes, staff aren't infallible and its not an absolutely perfect system but this is just fundamentally how the wiki is ran.