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Dragon Ball Heroes Special Ki Additions
- Thread starter Vietthai96
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@Dagoth_OwO What you're accusing me of has absolutely nothing to do with what I'm calling Vietthai on here given I've actually addressed these scans. You can claim I haven't debunked any of this all you want despite the opposite happening where I've been asking for evidence this applies to the real time scrolls and that the characters are explicitly shown to warp concepts and information and that being a requirement to destroy the time scrolls, but you're not winning this debate right now. Do you have any actual statements or showings that any of the time scrolls can do the exact same thing as the tokipedia or not? Because you're just repeating the same argument over and over again with no attempt to answer my question. The whole "like a video" doesn't prove information, especially when that's such a common trope in fiction for people to see astral projections of events that happened in the past, especially in the context of this scene being a time scroll showing the events of the timeline it has, and for the record, like a video, is not the same thing as literally being a video, which again does not prove information hax which you've not done a good job showing evidence that both of those are a requirement to destroy or affect a time scroll.
You keep saying I'm ignorant when I've been asking nonstop for proof on concepts and information being manipulated/destroyed being a flat out requirement to destroy a time scroll, if you guys for once can give me the evidence that this is a flat out requirement, plus the time scrolls literally lacking a physical form, then I'll concede on this debate, but as of now you're not helping your side when you flat out refuse to answer my questions, especially the time scroll lacking a physical form which you guys either forgot or just don't wanna answer.
Also for the record, anyone that only gives one off comments that don't contribute to the actual discussion I will be deleting these posts, so actually say something that contributes to the topic or just don't say anything at all.
You keep saying I'm ignorant when I've been asking nonstop for proof on concepts and information being manipulated/destroyed being a flat out requirement to destroy a time scroll, if you guys for once can give me the evidence that this is a flat out requirement, plus the time scrolls literally lacking a physical form, then I'll concede on this debate, but as of now you're not helping your side when you flat out refuse to answer my questions, especially the time scroll lacking a physical form which you guys either forgot or just don't wanna answer.
Also for the record, anyone that only gives one off comments that don't contribute to the actual discussion I will be deleting these posts, so actually say something that contributes to the topic or just don't say anything at all.
Braking
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It seems like the staff agrees with the concept stuff but they agree with glass in the concept/fate/causilty stuff. But i recomend waiting untill both sides are in agreement. Because they are certainly not done talkin.
Braking
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Yea if they somehow cant get an agreement then why not just put a possibly on the abilities? If its not fully accepted atleast.
Vietthai96
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DarkDragonMedeus and LordGriffin both agreed with Conceptual Manipulation, however they agreed Glassman's point about Information
LordGriffin agreed with Causality & Fate hax, DarkDragonMedeus has issue with Causality hax
Maverick agree with DarkDragonMedeus, but agree with Glass on Info/Causality/Fate
This is the current status, kinda busy early week so i can't check the thread much, also somehow connection to the website is very unstable
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@DarkDragonMedeus @LordGriffin1000 @Theglassman12 @Maverick_Zero_X
What do you suggest as the best consensus solution here?
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My thoughts have more or less remained unchanged.
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@Theglassman12 You never addressed the Demigra Time Rift scans. I've brought up the Time Scrolls recording the Supreme Kai of Time Demigra Time Rift three times so far and you didn't address it. The Time Scrolls reacting to that Time Rift is a blatant feat of doing the same thing as the Tokipedia, which is recording and containing the history of a Time Rift. Fu manipulated history and created a Time Rift where Demigra was the Supreme Kai of Time, and the entire Time Vault and everything in it was visibly corrupted by this alteration, something which always happens to the Time Scrolls when indicating that the history contained in those scrolls is altered. How exactly can the Time Scrolls react to a change in history regarding that Time Rift if they can't actually even record and contain that history/Time Rift in the first place. Additionally, there is another clear-cut instance of a Time Scroll recording/containing a Time Rift, as shown when a Time Scroll recorded/contained the Time Rift where Bardock dragged Mira into. That's two blatant showings right there of Time Scrolls doing the exact same thing as the Tokipedia, as they both can actually record/contain Time Rifts, which was the whole reason why Fu created the Tokipedia. To record Time Rifts.
Both Time Scrolls and Tokipedia can record/contain Time Rifts, both are visually depicted as scrolls, it was explicitly stated that Fu "accurately replicated the scroll" to create Tokipedia, so the difference between the two is literally nonexistent at this point. The Tokipedia and its data/info shenanigans absolutely scale to the Time Scrolls.
As for the rest, I'll get to later. I've got work to do
Both Time Scrolls and Tokipedia can record/contain Time Rifts, both are visually depicted as scrolls, it was explicitly stated that Fu "accurately replicated the scroll" to create Tokipedia, so the difference between the two is literally nonexistent at this point. The Tokipedia and its data/info shenanigans absolutely scale to the Time Scrolls.
As for the rest, I'll get to later. I've got work to do
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I meant regarding which composite/compromise solution that we should use here based on the four different staff evaluations.
Braking
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So basiclly a summary or do you want the thread to end with a conclusion?
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@Dagoth_OwO And corrupting the scrolls means they warp the information and the concepts how? Where's the proof the scrolls are incorporeal on top of concepts and information being a requirement to affect the scrolls? Because you still have not attempted to answer both of these questions to prove that they lack a form and that destroying concepts and information is a requirement. Answer my question, does every character suddenly get blood, bone and biological manipulation for destroying a human body, regardless if it's done by blowing it up or burning the body? Because as of now this is the type of logic you're bringing with destroying time scrolls.
@Antvasima How many staff members would have to disagree/agree to consider it rejected or accepted? Cause if we've reached the bare minimum then we can move onto the other stuff.
@Antvasima How many staff members would have to disagree/agree to consider it rejected or accepted? Cause if we've reached the bare minimum then we can move onto the other stuff.
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Destroying scrolls would valid for all those things if they contain all those things within themselves in the first place. Why make it sound so complicated according to your headcanon @Theglassman12 ?
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@Greatsage13th then answer my question, does blowing up or burning a human body qualify for blood manipulation, bone manipulation and biological manipulation because I destroyed it all? Because destroying something that just happens to have this (not really proven for info hax at all) isn't granting you these abilities.
Vietthai96
He/Him- 10,177
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- #298
Well look like i need to, again, explain things despite it already presented in the sandbox
Despite characters being able to touch Time Scrolls like it is a physical object, the verse however constantly reminds that in order to actually affect the scrolls you need special powers
- Sealas, being the first Time Patroller, working along with Chronoa along with his considerable experience in constantly dealing with history anomalies, having the intelligence to create an Artificial Intelligence, and of course having multiple chances to study Time Scrolls, stated that he needed power to burn them down in order to completely destroy all of current existence
- Mechikabura could only affect the Time Scrolls and absorb them, along with Time and history when he attained Time Power. Described to have sucked everything
- Demigra could only destroy the entire multiverse, and all the Time Scrolls in Time Vault after he absorbed Tokitoki
- Supreme Kai of Time possesses Time Power (or Time God's Power, Power of Time) like Chronoa who is capable of affecting Time Scrolls to fix history/timelines/space-time. And Agios, Chronoa's predecessor, who is capable of burning down the Time Scrolls and erase history with her powers. Time Scrolls were also created by a Time God/Supreme Kai of Time like them. Demigra in an alternative Time Rift timeline where he became the Supreme Kai of Time is also capable of doing these feats.
- Tokitoki, as a God Bird of Time is capable of manipulating Time Scrolls to save the Future Warrior. He also remade everything along with these Time Scrolls.
- Towa with the Time power from Tokitoki's egg was capable of directly rewriting the Time Scroll which recorded Dabura's timeline, and altered his fate so that he didn't die by Buu's hands. This is a direct feat of someone rewriting reality/timelines by directly affecting the records of a Time Scroll, further proving how their records/data shapes reality. Without the power of Tokitoki's egg, Towa wouldn't have been able to perform this feat
- Fu, with his intelligence, was capable of creating Tokipedia, a copy of Time Scroll and even then he could only resetting and erasing history multiple times over. The Tokipedia and its records being completely unaffected by the erasure of time itself further proves that the Tokipedia/Time Scrolls and their records/information cannot be erased by regular means or abilities
Again i will repeat, everything confirmed that only Time Power can truly create, affect and erase Time Scroll along with everything all the record in it, we have multiple example of abstract objects or beings that despite being abstract, still having a physical appearance and vessel to some extent
And lastly if you still persistent about this then here:
Chronoa directly erase all the records of Time Scroll
Also about this point
Probably you get the wrong idea, but no, the scroll corrupting is just it response and record the timeline and its events when history changed, when history being normal, no one corrupt it
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Well, we have a sufficient number of staff members with evaluation rights here, but they would need to have reached some form of consensus regarding each individual evaluated suggestion/issue. If all of them disagree with each other regarding some point, it is much harder to know what we should do in that area.
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@Vietthai96 Do you have any evidence that Ahm's specifically made to destroy the time scrolls? Because going off his synopsis here, it's seems to me Ahm's mostly concerned about destroying the time patrol as he's gaining data to defeat them, not getting specific powers to destroy the time scrolls, so yeah I don't really see this helping your case here.
Not a single one of these scans with Mechikabura remotely implies the time scrolls are necessary to affect, he just consumes the multiverse, nothing shows that he's trying to attack the time scrolls directly, which again doesn't prove concepts and information being manipulated as a requirement.
Pretty sure he only wanted tokitoki's power to create his own reality given he said he'll finally have his own history, not that destroying the time scrolls is a requirement, especially when we see a time scroll still there.
Yeah, burning the time scrolls which results in the timelines being destroyed in the end, something already established to be a thing in the series, it doesn't really prove concepts and information are requirement to destroy these scrolls.
Again, where exactly is the evidence of concepts and information being a requirement to alter these or destroy these scrolls again?
Again, everything about the tokipedia at best just scales to Fu as he's the only one doing this, and even then it's with prep time at best, nothing about this proves information is a requirement, in fact the idea that the records in the tokipedia don't affect the time scrolls contradicts information being warped since there's no evidence that warping information itself means affecting the actual timelines.
Again, go back to my question that you guys won't answer for some reason, do I get blood, bone and biological manipulation for burning/destroying a human body? Or is it just that these things happen to result in all 3 of these forms of matter being destroyed? By your own logic every person/fictional character ever with weapons/strength that can destroy a human body just happens to have all 3 of these abilities despite it being a chain reaction of these objects being destroyed in the end, having concepts (which btw Time Bird is not a concept or an abstract being, he's shown the exact opposite of the traits for an abstract being) in a timeline does not grant you conceptual manipulation because you destroy the timeline, that's at best a chain reaction feat.
Not a single one of these scans with Mechikabura remotely implies the time scrolls are necessary to affect, he just consumes the multiverse, nothing shows that he's trying to attack the time scrolls directly, which again doesn't prove concepts and information being manipulated as a requirement.
Pretty sure he only wanted tokitoki's power to create his own reality given he said he'll finally have his own history, not that destroying the time scrolls is a requirement, especially when we see a time scroll still there.
Yeah, burning the time scrolls which results in the timelines being destroyed in the end, something already established to be a thing in the series, it doesn't really prove concepts and information are requirement to destroy these scrolls.
Again, where exactly is the evidence of concepts and information being a requirement to alter these or destroy these scrolls again?
Again, everything about the tokipedia at best just scales to Fu as he's the only one doing this, and even then it's with prep time at best, nothing about this proves information is a requirement, in fact the idea that the records in the tokipedia don't affect the time scrolls contradicts information being warped since there's no evidence that warping information itself means affecting the actual timelines.
Again, go back to my question that you guys won't answer for some reason, do I get blood, bone and biological manipulation for burning/destroying a human body? Or is it just that these things happen to result in all 3 of these forms of matter being destroyed? By your own logic every person/fictional character ever with weapons/strength that can destroy a human body just happens to have all 3 of these abilities despite it being a chain reaction of these objects being destroyed in the end, having concepts (which btw Time Bird is not a concept or an abstract being, he's shown the exact opposite of the traits for an abstract being) in a timeline does not grant you conceptual manipulation because you destroy the timeline, that's at best a chain reaction feat.
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Tokipedia Is just a time scroll that records unofficial histories, created by Fuu. It's not something exclusive to him... Unless you argue the SKOT can't do anything with these scrolls which goes against the entire lore of the verse.
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You can see here that Sealas achieves his final form by letting Ahms absorb him. During the transformation he says "This is ahead of schedule, but I must move to the final phase. I must tear it all down and then rebuild it."
So yes, Sealas's ultimate purpose for Ahms was to collect data, merge with him and use his powers to destroy the scrolls and remake reality.
Braking
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NO NO NOOOOOO ah crap also how is that mf getting a miracle perfect at that speed????
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@Ottavio_Merluzzo and yet Fu is like the only person with these showings with the tokipedia, and it's his own creation so this at best scales to him, especially with the lack of evidence on the concepts and information being needed to destroy the time scrolls which I've asked for the nth time now on top of an answer to my question on the human body no one would give.
@Roun12 collect data on the fighters, not the time scroll, that's literally what's stated in his story as he's recording data to defeat the time patrol, vegeta literally says in that clip everything it saw or experienced in battle has been converted to raw power. Nothing about this is about needing specific abilities to destroy the time scrolls, just getting data against the time patrol to beat them. No scans on the scrolls lacking a physical form or concepts/information being required to destroy the scrolls.
@Roun12 collect data on the fighters, not the time scroll, that's literally what's stated in his story as he's recording data to defeat the time patrol, vegeta literally says in that clip everything it saw or experienced in battle has been converted to raw power. Nothing about this is about needing specific abilities to destroy the time scrolls, just getting data against the time patrol to beat them. No scans on the scrolls lacking a physical form or concepts/information being required to destroy the scrolls.
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I don't believe the scrolls having a physical form is a deal breaker for these abilities, but is there anything besides a verbatim statement of "To affect the Time Scrolls you need to affect concepts/information" you would be willing to accept?
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Given the fact the characters for some reason has NPI for affecting time scrolls to begin with, and the arguments is just concepts and information, yes I do believe it's a deal breaker when the main argument is the concepts and info blog. Not really, cause for extraordinary abilities like concepts and information to scale to literally anyone and everyone that affects the time scrolls you need extraordinary evidence for this, so something along the lines of "concepts and information need to be affected to destroy the scrolls" is what I'd like to see for this to be legitimate.
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I'll repeat this for the last time.
Tokipedia is a perfect replica of a Time Scroll. The difference is that it records Time Rifts instead of the official history.
What you're claiming is that only Fu can manipulate those scrolls, which is not what the verse shows.
All of Xenoverse becomes a gigantic plothole under your interpretation.
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Remember when you asked me and I quote "Do you have any actual statements or showings that any of the time scrolls can do the exact same thing as the tokipedia or not?". I showed you explicit proof that Time Scrolls can contain Time Rifts (SKOT Demigra Time Rift and the Time Rift where Bardock dragged Mira into), and you've once again ignored it entirely. The sole purpose of the Tokipedia was to contain and record Time Rifts, and I have undeniably proven that the Time Scrolls are infact capable of doing the exact same thing if necessary. The Time Scrolls not recording Fu's Time Rifts is literally just a matter of choice, not a limitation, as Chronoa has absolutely no reason to record Time Rifts which are literally threatening and brainwashing other people and destabilizing Conton City, and which were going to be destroyed and absorbed a moment later anyway. So let's quickly go over the checkbook again shall we?
Both Tokipedia and Time Scrolls can contain and record Time Rifts.
Tokipedia is visually shown to be a Time Scroll.
Tokipedia was stated to be the "Time Rift Edition Time Scroll".
Tokipedia was explicitly stated to be an accurate replica of a Time Scroll.
Well would ya look at that. It's almost like every single piece of evidence in the series actually implies that Tokipedia is literally just an exact copy of a Time Scroll. Thus, you can infact scale its properties to the Time Scrolls, due to being an accurate replica. Simple as that. Ignorance might be a bliss, but it sure as hell doesn't disprove Time Scrolls and Tokipedia being the same and therefore scaling to each other. You asked for proof that Time Scrolls can do the exact same thing as the Tokipedia (the ability to contain Time Rifts), and I have provided it. Are you going to acknowledge and address them or are you going to ignore them again? Your choice.
You misunderstood my point. The corruption only indicates that the history recorded and contained in a Time Scroll is changed, not that it's literally corrupted like someone under Dark Ki's corruption. Anyways, I find your human body example a false comparison, since we're not dealing things that we can normally touch like bones, but literal non-physical data and information. To physically affect something non-physical like data/information, you obviously need a specific ability, and as I've already proven with the Tokipedia, which 100% scales to the Time Scrolls that I have also proven, not even literal time erasure can affect the scrolls and their records. Your comparison is faulty when the scrolls and their records can't be affected by time EE anyway, unlike a human body. If the recorded data/information itself can't be destroyed by erasing its container, then it's fairly obvious that you'd need to affect the data directly to destroy it. Of course, if you once again decide to ignore the clear evidence that the Tokipedia stuff scales to the Time Scrolls, this whole discussion is pointless and an utter waste of my time, so I'll just have to wait and see what you do.
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Vietthai96
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What the hell, literally, Tokipedia affect and record its own timeline, Fu directly stated it separate from normal timeline, thus not affect
1. Literally you ignore my scan again:
Nothing here is "chain reaction" Chronoa literally erased the record inside Time Scroll. By your logic, Conceptual Manipulation is also a chain reaction power, as it manipulating fundamental part of reality, thus as a chain reaction it also change reality
2. Your analogy with human body is very wrong, both blood, bone is physical part of human body, here we dealing with non-physical, abstract data/information. If Time Power can't erase data/information, then nothing will change, reality will not be erased, no chain reaction here, i already explained it, only Time Power user can affect the scroll, if it is that easy just using chain reaction to destroy everything, villain like Mechikabura will not need to go after Time Power. And lastly Time Power create everything, all of reality and the even Time Scrolls
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Vietthai96
He/Him- 10,177
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Conceptual was agreed by 2 admins and 1 mod, so it is fine
Fate was agreed by 2 admins, 1 mod disagreed (Maverick agreed with Glass point)
Causality was agreed by Griffin, disagreed by Medeus and Maverick
Glass still in the process of arguing with us so............
Anyway i'm going to sleep now, midnight in my timezone
Vietthai96
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Oke, what about Fate???
Vietthai96
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Griffin and Medeus have no problem with it, Maverick agreed with glass which mean he disagreed with fate hax
Vietthai96
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- #317
oh sorry Ant, kinda sleepy at this hour, here is the feat, UMX Demigra dark power caused all kind of possibilities to overflow, possibilities in verse context is future as how Fu mentioned them
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More specifically, there's the intertwining of the histories of separate universes, the alteration of specific events in the past, and causing things to occur that were deemed impossible by someone with Cosmic Awareness of all time and timelines.
I firmly believe that this could call for a review of a lot of profiles with Causality Manipulation if this is doesn't qualify.
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