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DB Toei revision

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LeSupremeKing1 said:
Buu's Outside Space feat, although some may disagree with it being due to combat statistics, should definitely be 3-A Environment destruction imo.
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Yeah, that is agreeable. Since he can cause damage of that level even though his normal AP doesn't scale to it. But he doesn't have a profile.
 
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AKM sama said:
Because I didn't feel the need to. This is common knowledge. Those statements don't have to contradict what Popo said. It adds context. A meaning of the statement is analyzed by the context surrounding it, not from taking the statement in isolation by leaving out the context.
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Nothing you said counters anything I put. I'll move on from this point since it's rather mundane.
AKM sama said:
Doesn't matter because previews are still not reliable. And it's not an argument, it's a fact. Previews are there solely to generate hype for the next episode. If it didn't happen in the actual episode, then it doesn't exist and didn't happen.
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You’re acting as if the statements is just there to deceive the audience. Once I find the quote in the actual episode I'll have it translated.
AKM sama said:
The narration states this in the very next page of the manga. The chapter ends exactly where the episode ends, and the next chapter starts with the same narration that is used to close off the episode. It's obvious both are trying to go for the same thing. They are poetic dialogues meant to smoothen a transition between two chapters/episodes. The anime just picked it up from the manga and changed the statement a little bit.
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We always treated the anime and manga as different continuities, so it's no different here. Just admit you don’t have an actual counter argument.
AKM sama said:
No. Not drawn to scale means that there can be margin for error in the drawing. It won't be exact but it will still capture the intrinsic view of what it is supposed to be. If something is not drawn to scale but is represented as a planet, you can at most say that it's either a small planet, a medium sized planet, or a large planet, within the confines of common sense. You don't say it's a universe-sized planet.
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"But it's a planet" is literally your only counter argument.
AKM sama said:
The existence of a small dimension does not change the cosmology in the bigger aspect of things. My point was that none of the points in your CRT actually point to a huge change in how we would treat the cosmology, besides that one poetic statement which is used for transition.
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It doesn’t matter how small the difference is, they’re not the same canonically.
AKM sama said:
There has already been enough discussion on this point. Both in this thread, and in prior threads. I don't see any new point.
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Simply because you don’t have one.
 
LeSupremeKing1 said:
Buu's Outside Space feat, although some may disagree with it being due to combat statistics, should definitely be 3-A Environment destruction imo.
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Assuming that Buuhan's feat its downgraded to 3-A, i don't think it should be merely consider environment destruction, the Vice Shout isn't just hax and its effects are clearly dependy by the user's level of power as show by Super Buu and Gotenks SSj3, meaning Buuhan's universal destruction was due of his raw strength.

At worst we could say that Buuhan isn't regularly this strong and only when enraged, however Vegito SSj1 should still scale to 3-A as he was still show to be stronger than him and he was able to destroy the barrier that was suppost to protect him from his own destruction.

And Baby Vegeta (Strongest Form 2) too as Kid Goku did tell that (before meeting Super 17 and Syn Shenron) that he was the strongest opponent he ever faced, other that his Revenge Death Ball was actually capable to shake the very fabric of dimensions.
 
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Nothing you said counters anything I put. I'll move on from this point since it's rather mundane.
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Your initial proposal was that all of past, present and future of the universe is created in that room, and the context of the statement already debunks that notion. But ok.

You’re acting as if the statements is just there to deceive the audience. Once I find the quote in the actual episode I'll have it translated.
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We can talk about it once you find it in the episode.

We always treated the anime and manga as different continuities, so it's no different here. Just admit you don’t have an actual counter argument.
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Doesn't matter when the context of the existence of this poetic statement is just to ensure a smooth transition between episodes, like in the manga, and not something that can be taken 100% literally.

"But it's a planet" is literally your only counter argument.
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And a very valid one. It's not difficult to make it as wide as the universe when the same map drawn by the same person has hell in it which is explicitly drawn to be as wide as the universe.

RandomGuy said:
to be fair, the other guy came off a little rude in his initial post in my opinion. was always a little heated.
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Where?

Also, I will further note this from the discussion rules:
  • Do not create discussion threads trying to upgrade the Z Anime and GT characters based on Super Buu crashing the universe by breaking the walls between dimensions with his Vice Shout as it was discussed and debunked countless times.
 
AKM sama said:
Doesn't matter when the context of the existence of this poetic statement is just to ensure a smooth transition between episodes, like in the manga, and not something that can be taken 100% literally.
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"If they are outright called universes or stated to be the size of universes by a reliable source, they should be considered universes." The living world is called "the universe" and the daizenshuu says it's like our own. Plus the space and time statement provided. Burden of proof is on you. You have to prove why this is wrong.
AKM sama said:
And a very valid one. It's not difficult to make it as wide as the universe when the same map drawn by the same person has hell in it which is explicitly drawn to be as wide as the universe.
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Using this same logic, heaven would be at least 3-B in size because it was drawn like that.
AKM sama said:
Where?

Also, I will further note this from the discussion rules:
  • Do not create discussion threads trying to upgrade the Z Anime and GT characters based on Super Buu crashing the universe by breaking the walls between dimensions with his Vice Shout as it was discussed and debunked countless times.
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Stefano said it best.
 
AKM sama said:
And a very valid one. It's not difficult to make it as wide as the universe when the same map drawn by the same person has hell in it which is explicitly drawn to be as wide as the universe.
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The macrocosm drawings are visually inaccurate regardless, it wouldn't matter if it was drawn exactly as wide as the universe or relative in size to the kaioshin realm.

Regardless of how it appears in diagrams, regardless if its a planet or not, if a reliable source says its size is on par with the living universe, then I would take that to be true.
 
AKM sama said:
And a very valid one. It's not difficult to make it as wide as the universe when the same map drawn by the same person has hell in it which is explicitly drawn to be as wide as the universe.
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Doesn’t matter, it looking like a planet is a really bad argument when there are several statements of it being the size of the mortal universe


AKM sama said:
Do not create discussion threads trying to upgrade the Z Anime and GT characters based on Super Buu crashing the universe by breaking the walls between dimensions with his Vice Shout as it was discussed and debunked countless times.
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This is interesting. Just my own opinion, but these things should be deleted. There’s no point in saying that the buu stuff can’t be used.
 
AKM sama said:
Where?
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This is so out of context. Anybody who has seen DB knows that the context here means
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came off a little strong here in my opinion by implying he hasn't seen DBZ because anyone that has would know X.

Also, I will further note this from the discussion rules:
  • Do not create discussion threads trying to upgrade the Z Anime and GT characters based on Super Buu crashing the universe by breaking the walls between dimensions with his Vice Shout as it was discussed and debunked countless times.
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that's a neat way to completely dismiss any and all arguments without being forced to make reasonable counter arguments. that rule is basically "freedom of thought and freedom of discussion = bad." do you really expect anyone to follow that? if it's so easy to debunk, then do it again. you shouldn't have to hide behind a rule like you are now.
 
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@AKM sama

What do you think should be done here in summary? Are any of Zamasu's suggestions acceptable?
 
AKM sama said:
Also, I will further note this from the discussion rules:
  • Do not create discussion threads trying to upgrade the Z Anime and GT characters based on Super Buu crashing the universe by breaking the walls between dimensions with his Vice Shout as it was discussed and debunked countless times.
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Bro please stop doing this

Just use ur counter arguments
 
LeSupremeKing1 said:
if a reliable source says its size is on par with the living universe
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The source was a person who just went there. And even that person heard it from someone else. We don't know who. The statement goes like "I hear that...", that's not a reliable statement or source. Before you mention that it's in the Daizenshuu which makes it reliable, the daizenshuu included it under the "anime" section in an article about Heaven because the anime has a statement and it is its job to log each and every information about Heaven. Daizenshuu logged it because the statement exists, but whether it is reliable or not is another matter.

I'm more neutral regarding Heaven myself (the very scan in the OP used for Heaven was actually created by me more than 4 years ago so I'm glad that my scan has survived the test of time and is still popular). Although, treating Heaven to be as wide as the universe wouldn't change the cosmology. It will just make the size of afterlife bigger. And the current size we use for a universe has that already factored in. So essentially, this will change nothing as far as treating the cosmology is concerned.

Bababo said:
Just use ur counter arguments
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I have already posted my counter arguments. You are free to disagree with them. Nothing has changed from all the previous discussions and the rule exists for the sole reason to prevent repeating the same tiresome song and dance again. And I am not interested in doing that atm.

Antvasima said:
What do you think should be done here in summary? Are any of Zamasu's suggestions acceptable?
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Heaven may be considered to be as wide as the universe. I am neutral on that. Best to ask other staff members who contributed in earlier discussion (I don't remember who). But I don't think that will result in any change regarding how we treat the cosmology as our current accepted size of U7 has that already factored in.

Anime Buuhan would get 3-A Environment Destruction with his Vice Shout. But he doesn't have a profile and it scale to nobody.
 
Buuhan's universe destruction shouldn't be consider Environment Destruction, regardless of the feat be 3-A or Low 2-C.

Like i say before, Vice Shout's effects are clearly depend by the user's level of power, since with Super Buu and Gotenks they could only make a small wormhole instead to destroy the pocket dimension, meaning Buuhan's raw power should had be borderline 3-A at the very least to make the Living World collapse to itself.
 
Can somebody list the staff members who contributed to this thread previously please?
 
I mean there's like two statements of them being separated space-times what's the argument for them not being separate? I feel like new rules are being made up to get around it like saying that previews can't be used and the manga can be used in this instance to disprove the anime. I don't wanna say it's bias, but it seems pretty unfair
 
Also the DBZ anime is just a loose interpretation of the manga, there are gonna be some similar statements. Imo it doesn't matter that the statement being used as evidence is close to the statement in the manga with the addition of space-time to, in your words, "spice it up". The statement is there, if we treat the DBZ anime and DBZ manga as two separate continuities, the fact that the manga doesn't mention space-time in their statement is irrelevant
 
Imma be honest but u gonna need more then 1 mod. I don’t get how 1 person can say something and then everything has to get either shutdown or go through. We need like 3 mods for now on
 
BlackeJan said:
Imma be honest but u gonna need more then 1 mod. I don’t get how 1 person can say something and then everything has to get either shutdown or go through. We need like 3 mods for now on
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But, sadly, the others aren't as knowledgeable as DDM and AKM are....., and also, most of them are saturated with these kind of DB CRTS.
 
BlackeJan said:
Imma be honest but u gonna need more then 1 mod. I don’t get how 1 person can say something and then everything has to get either shutdown or go through. We need like 3 mods for now on
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mod decision should be irrelevant when they are outnumbered this heavily. they hold no special authority or knowledge that makes what they say automatically more valuable in terms of a debate.
 
RandomGuy said:
mod decision should be irrelevant when they are outnumbered this heavily. they hold no special authority or knowledge that makes what they say automatically more valuable.
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Unfortunately that's how it works in this wiki.

I feel like it should be knowledgeable members who's say should matter, but it is what it is
 
There's no way this CRT is gonna be rejected just because 1 dude disagreed out of 15 other agrees. Like who disagreed and what even is the argument against this?
 
Ganasto said:
I mean there's like two statements of them being separated space-times what's the argument for them not being separate? I feel like new rules are being made up to get around it like saying that previews can't be used and the manga can be used in this instance to disprove the anime. I don't wanna say it's bias, but it seems pretty unfair
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is this from DBZ? Could I see scans?
 
Nierre said:
Unfortunately that's how it works in this wiki.

I feel like it should be knowledgeable members who's say should matter, but it is what it is
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well don't get me wrong. i'm not annoyed because it's not getting accepted. if it was heavily contested or something. whatever. this wiki isn't right 90% of the time regarding anything, so this is just a fun little thing I go to every now and then to see how debates work within this system. what i'm irritated with specifically is the blatant authoritarianism/abuse of power here to just ignore everything and do whatever one guy wants. it also reeks of elitism and narcissism.
 
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