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Speed should probably be equalized here, or Vader will speed blitz.

Otherwise, it's a fairly even fight. They resist each other's mind/memory manipulation, they both have telekinesis, they both have precognition, they both have energy and lightning manipulation...

Sasuke has several abilities in his favor, however. Amenotejikara allows him to teleport, the Rinnegan gives him the Deva Path's abilities, which are not unlike the Force--but it also has Gravity Manipulation with Bansho Ten'in and Chibaku Tensei. I'm also unsure how Vader would handle Perfect Susano'o, or Amaterasu, which can rapidly vaporize steel.

As for Vader's superior skill, if that is true, Sasuke's Sharingan would allow him to keep up with it.

...but again, with speed unequalized, Vader speedblitzes.
Vader's own force abilities counter Precog

Vader's telekinesis is far superior to Sasuke's. I don't see Sasuke countering Vader's TK if he grabs Sasuke by the heart or brain.

Vader's lightning Manip is pretty bad admittedly, but his resistance to lightning is impressive as his suit has stuff that makes lightning useless (though this was only effective to a point, as shown with Sidious). Starkiller actually needed an amp to take down Vader's lightning resistance (and even then it's implied he let Starkiller win)

Amenotejikara is a useful power, but Vader could still sense him (or just predict it with his superior precog) and just continue from there. He has no trouble pivoting on the spot.

Vader's TK is absolutely superior to Deva Path. He has a far wider range of motion thatn Gravity Manip or Repulsion/Attraction. He could just hold himself with his telekinetic barriers or make himself immovable with it, similar to how he did in TFU against Kento Marek.

Even with Perfect Susano'o, which isn't that far above Rinnegan Sasuke, Vader can still reach into it to grab Sasuke using the methods I talked about earlier. It's worth noting that even if he has any barriers against that sort of thing (He doesn't), Vader's penetrated Force Barriers before (he grabbed (iirc) a Jedi Master by the heart during interrogation)

Looking at AP, it's close but I think Vader takes a comfortable advantage.

Reading my Momoshiki vs Madara thread, Sasuke apparently scales to about 100 Zt via scaling to half of 200 ZT Hagoromo (he has half of Hagoromo's chakra). He should be a little above that since physically speaking, he's like in his 30s which is a humans physical prime, on top of presumably training. I'm not sure if he retains the chakra of 9 tailed beasts, but I'll assume he does for fairness

Vader at his prime is often portrayed as comparable to or more powerful than Anakin who stomped Dooku at his peak, who is above Kenobi by an inconsistent degree (He's usually portrayed as somewhat stronger but not to the point of stomping. Yet he manhandled Kenobi in their last fight. I personally think Sidious weakened Kenobi, but that's headcanon), who is above Darth Maul who is above Savage Opress (stalemating Anakin and Obi-Wan is outlierish as hell for him, given how he performs later) who handily bested Adi Gallia who should be comparable to Yarael Poof, who is 82.42 Zettatons


Sasuke > 1/2 Hagoromo (100 Zettatons)

Vader >= Anakin >> Dooku > Kenobi > Maul > Oppress > Most Jedi Council Masters = 82.42 Zettatons

Also worth noting is that Vader possesses a vastly superior tactical mind, and is a capable user of Dun Moch (psychological warfare). Sasuke may be more mature now but he definitely has a ton of demons to bring out.
Adult Sasuke should scale >>100 ZTs, seeing that it's been close to 15 years since receiving half of Hagoromo's chakra and how he's been constantly on the upkeep with his training since.

What exactly is the extent of Vader's precog, and how has he used it in combat before? And how do Vader's Force abilities counter Sasuke's Sharingan/Precog?

Sasuke can also just absorb the energy behind Vader's TK, if we're going to do verse equalization and Force = chakra, but if not then that's still a valid point, I suppose. For Sasuke's part, I don't see Vader having an answer to Amaterasu/Enton: Kagutsuchi, either.

As for a vastly superior tactical mind, what's the source on that exactly? Sasuke can effortlessly pick up on and insert himself into complex tactical plans with little more cueing in than a nod, glance, or grunt of affirmation, or nothing of the sort, as shown numerous times.
Stronger, yes but not >>. There's no reason to believe he'd be that much stronger when he only reached High 6-A levels via training, and he was far more dedicated then than he is now.

Every time he blocks a blaster bolt.

They're reasonably different power sources, so I don't see how Verse equalization should apply at all (I don't think that work anymore than Vodo Siosk Bass using Sever Force on Sasuke would). But Vader has energy absorption too. He could counter Amaterasu via tutaminis since Obi Wan can also cancel out flames with it.

Anakin can do the same on a whim, Vader is more likely the use the environment to his advantage (whether blending in for a stealth kill like in TFU2 or just throwing projectiles with 5-B force at Sasuke). He also has used TK to undermine his opponent before (i.e., Vader grabs you when you leap to him), so once he realized Sasuke was using hand seals, he could just interrupt them (before one says "why wouldn't he do that in his Verse?", force users don't need to use their hands to use telekinesis, as Vader himself showed with his force choke)
1: Fair, I suppose, but strong enough to at least equalize Vader, who scales above a weaker feat.

2: And how does this make it better than Sasuke's, again, which can allow him to copy someone's movements as they're being made?

3: Tutaminis? And how can this cancel out Amaterasu, which can't be put out except by way of sealing (Jiraiya used a specialized fire-sealing scroll) or Sasuke's right eye? (I believe when Nagato used Shinra Tensei to expel Amaterasu's flames, it still caused the flames to scatter around and start burning the surrounding enviroment--and even then, the only reason that worked is because the Edo Tensei jutsu was repairing Nagato as quickly as Amaterasu was destroying him. A similar move would allow Sasuke to use the scattered flames to his advantage, using Enton: Kagutsuchi)

4: Stealth kills won't work. The Sharingan would allow him to pick Vader out from the enviroment easily. Also, Sasuke doesn't need to use hand seals for the majority of his jutsu, at this point. He can use his Lightning Release and Fire Release techniques (and his eye techniques, obviously) without hand movements at all (except lifting a hand to his lips for the fireballs, and that's a maybe).
1) I suppose this is a bit more debatable, but I think we can agree they might as well be equal.

2) Because they can help them block attacks coming in high numbers or speeds. Their precog is good enough that Kit Fisto, who Vader would stomp, could block a few strikes from MFTL+ Sidious before going down

3) Tutaminis is energy manip, reflection and redirection. He could throw it back at Sasuke.

4) Vader presumably like Dooku can mask his energy signature from other beings. But even so, it would restrict Sasuke's powers a little bit. Plus there's the whole "choking Sasuke during Fireball Jutsu" xD
1) Agreed.

2) That's exactly what the Sharingan does for Sasuke, though. >_>

3) Fair, albeit Sasuke could just as easily absorb/deflect/put it out, himself.

4) Wouldn't matter, as far as I can tell. Even someone who rendered himself invisible was able to be perceived by the Sharingan, by seeing through to the chakra within. It isn't an extrasensory perception like Force Sensing is, it's a visual enhancement that allows Sasuke to perceive the inner energy inside them. And even without that, the other visual enhancements of the Sharingan would allow Sasuke to pick him out from the enviroment with little more than a quick glance around.

The only thing that produces a problem is Vader's TK, but how often does Vader just go for the "attack the organs directly" route vs. Force Choke? Force Choke wouldn't hinder the majority of Sasuke's more powerful abilities at all, and he could prevent Vader from finishing the job by way of casting a quick genjutsu (while Vader resists Mind Manipulation, he doesn't resist Illusion Creation, meaning Sasuke could create an illusory distraction to break the TK) or using Amaterasu/Enton. There's a possibility that he could use Amenotijikara to set up a situation wherein after getting an organ ruptured, he switches places with something next to Vader (it could be a piece of debris, even) and grabs onto him, which would enable him to both heal himself and possibly drag out Vader's soul.
3) Sasuke would likely put it out himself after a while because it is a very draining ability

4) I'm talking about hiding that inner energy. Dooku is still plain seeable, he just isn't sensable.

Vader also has matter manip that is applicable to combat since he's used it on the fly before.
BruceTheBatman said:
3) Once it starts to burn, Amaterasu continues to burn with no drain on the user's energy (Itachi stated that the flames of Amaterasu never stop burning until their target is reduced to nothing). When Itachi used it to escape Jiraiya's Toad Stomach Technique, the flames continued to burn for minutes after Itachi had left the area, until Jiraiya sealed them. When Sasuke fused it with his Chidori during the last fight with Naruto at the end of Shippuuden, Kurama noted that "With his newly-acquired Rinnegan, he won't be able to absorb your chakra while putting out Amaterasu"; this wasn't a point against how much chakra Amaterasu uses, but rather, a point against his ability with his Rinnegan. Given that this Sasuke has had almost 15 years to acclimate to his Rinnegan, that's likely no longer a weakness..to say nothing of the fact that Sasuke's chakra reserves are insane, and Amaterasu became a casual ability by his appearance with the Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan in the Fourth Great Ninja War.

4) It...doesn't really matter? Unless he can completely erase the presence of his inner chakra with the Force (given that we aren't using verse equalization here, that isn't likely), then Sasuke will have no issue perceiving him. And even if he could, Sasuke would still pick him out, because the Sharingan picks up on very minute details.

Lastly, Sasuke resists Matter Manipulation, by way of resisting the Truth Seeking Balls, which completely erase energy and matter without a trace.
Wrath Of Itachi said:
I'm pretty sure adult sasuke scales to 400zt scaling to fused momoshiki.
He might scale to half of that, which should still be reasonably within range of Vader, and Vader probably stomps the 82.42zt guy who he scales from.
Landon Avery said:
Force Choke GG.
I mean. Sasuke could easily use one of his eye techniques to break Vader's concentration. An illusory distraction, Amaterasu, using Shinra Tensei or one of the other Rinnegan powers... He could potentially escape it altogether by using Amenotijikara to switch places with something, or make a Shadow Clone.
It's worth noting that Sasuke will go down if he's hit by Vader's lightsaber at all, since it can easily cut through 5-B characters
There's barely any AP gap if any given that Vader is stronger than a guy (Anakin) who can stomp a guy (Dooku) who can stomp a guy (Kenobi) who is stronger Yarael Poof.
The AP debate about Momo/Sasuke/Naruto is confusing.

According to Kepekley, who did the latest-accepted calcs, Naruto and Sasuke should be at least 350 zt, since they're able to individually keep up with Momoshiki, and overpower him together.

Meaning there is very likely to be an AP gap, I'm thinking; 350zt is still a 4x difference to the 82.4zt feat that Vader scales above. Is Vader expected to be 4x stronger than Yarael Poof? As for Vader's lightsaber, I'm not entirely sure that's an issue--Sasuke's sword (which easily sliced through Momo's dragons) would be able to match it blow-for-blow (especially if enhanced with chakra/Chidori), and should prove an equal danger to Vader.
I doubt illusion manip works on Vader as he exists in a verse where any Force sensitive and their mother can use it. Hell, thanks to The Last Jedi, it's even canon.
BruceTheBatman said:
It can cut through 4-B characters like Vitiate and Mace Windu however, so it might as well ignore dura against Sasuke
You're implying that a 5-B character has the AP to cut through a 4-B character with a 9-C+ weapon...? I'm not sure that follows. Vader has never canonically faced either (Vitiate lived thousands of years before Vader, and Windu died before the Rebellion was even a thing). He attacked Sidious, as I recall, but that really wasn't with his lightsaber.

@Sir Ovens: Doesn't say that he's resistant to it or anything like that. All it has to do is serve to distract him, after all, and Sasuke can go in for the kill.
BruceTheBatman said:
His blue lightsaber (which has weaker cutting power than a red one) cut through Mace Windu's hand
Sure, but wouldn't that be considered an outlier, if Windu has 4-B durability? He could just as easily not been using the Force to amp his defense at the time; Windu had Palpatine down and was about to deliver the final blow.

Also, source that blue lightsabers have less cutting power than red ones..? I've never heard that before.
4-B characters have only blocked lightsabers via tutaminis which is different from raw dura.

Sith Lightsabers use different lightsaber crystals in legends
Snoke123 said:
Sasuke would take blitz, before even thinking about using a jutsu.
Sasuke is faster than light?

Also the illusions thing is assuming Vader can't just sense that it's fake, which he can thanks to the Force. Legends Vader is also arguably more skilled given he's hunted down Jedi all across the galaxy ever since Order 66.
Sir Ovens said:
Snoke123 said:
Sasuke would take blitz, before even thinking about using a jutsu.
Sasuke is faster than light?
Also the illusions thing is assuming Vader can't just sense that it's fake, which he can thanks to the Force. Legends Vader is also arguably more skilled given he's hunted down Jedi all across the galaxy ever since Order 66.
I think the OP is trying to say that Sasuke would get blitzed before thinking of using a jutsu.

But...y'know, that's why speed should be equalized, else it's just "lol blitz gg" as opposed to a thoughtful and considerate discussion and comparison of each other's advantages and weaknesses.

Also, for the record, speed of thought =/= speed of light.
You can't give Vader 4-B AP.

Create a CRT about it.

Vader wins here almost in any case,he is too much faster,Sasuke can pretty much one shot with Chibaku Tensei from any range,his target is the center of gravity,but it isn't in character to do it from the start.

Also,even if Vader is above 80zetatons,don't forget that Sasuke is 200zetatons without Susanoo.
I honestly feel like the only thing Sasuke doesn't have a legitimate counter/answer for is Vader's TK. But like Sasuke and CT, it isn't in-character for Vader to start a fight by immediately organ-busting with TK, AFAIK.

If speed remains unequalized: Vader wins, speedblitz gg.

Speed equalized: I'm voting inconclusive.
I'm not saying he has 4-B AP, I'm saying he can ignore the dura of 4-B characters because Mace Windu and others only block lightsabers via tutaminis
BruceTheBatman said:
I'm not saying he has 4-B AP, I'm saying he can ignore the dura of 4-B characters because Mace Windu and others only block lightsabers via tutaminis
How is that not an outlier, though, when it's only happened once? Durability negation (to any extent) isn't listed on any lightsaber-wielding SW profile on here.
Because the only things that have blocked lightsabers have been high level tutaminis users (Mace isn't one of them, and neither is Arcann who is also 4-B and possibly dies from a lightsaber) and materials like Cortosis
This isn't an AP upgrade, this is referring to the fact that lightsabers have cut through 4-B characters in SW without sufficient skill in Tutaminis (energy reflection, redirection and absorption), including Vaylin, Mace Windu, Arcann, Pre-KOTFE Vitiate
And Vader (nor the other lightsaber-wielding profiles I've seen) doesn't have Durability Negation listed.

Ergo, if you want to use that as an arguement, CRT to add limited dura negation.

Powers and Abilities:
Can be activated and deactivated, generates heat and light, the blade acts as a solid object although it has no mass, can cut through almost any material, sometimes includes settings which can change the length or density of the blade
Vader can't ignore the durability of 4B characters, but he can kill them if they're force amp isn't up

But literally every character worth a damn can do that, so it isn't impressive
Then why have lightsabers cut through literally everyone except those who aren't good with tutaminis (such as Arcann and Mace Windu?)
Even though you spend a good deal of KOTFE and KOTET not cutting him when you battle him, in spite of consistent successful lightsaber strikes.
Game mechanics.

Regardless, it can easily cut through literally every 5-b character in star wars except fo Satele Shan, so I still say it should work here.
What doea sasuke have to resist the force? Using the rinnegan trap doesnt count considering that Vader has no chakra

TBH, I think we should either equalize speed and make this teen sasuke (making AP and dura even) or use adult sasuke but stay with unequalized speed, so both have some advantages both ways, but are still comparable overall
As much as I love Sauce, Nardo mindhax is fodder to SW mindhax.

Vader thinks FRA.
Speed isn't equalized, meaning Vader is even more likely to win via start-of-the-match mindhax than usual thanks to FTL combat speed and reactions.

Sith Lord bodies.
MrKingOfNegativity said:
Speed isn't equalized, meaning Vader is even more likely to win via start-of-the-match mindhax than usual thanks to FTL combat speed and reactions.
Sith Lord bodies.
Oh dear.

Sith Lord might not even have to body. He'd just stare. Like Itachi.

AKA 'tis a stomp.
Probably. Sasuke is 0.34c. FTL combat speed/reactions would be roughly 3x that at minimum, if not higher. Not enough to blitz, but considering Vader's mindhax one-shots, it makes an already decisive match that much worse.

Vader blitzes. Vader's mindhax trumps Sasuke's resistance. Sasuke also can't stop Vader from crushing/pulping his organs.
>what people expect/imagine making a(n) [insert Sith/Jedi here] vs. Sasuke thread

*Intense melee, fire, and lightning battle, an overall enjoyable spectacle*

>what people get

*lol [insert Sith/Jedi here] organ-crushes gg*

Out of curiousity, what is Vader's mindhax ranking? Sasuke should at least have planetary resistance due to resisting Infinite Tsukuyomi.
Can we seriously come to an agreement on which SW characters scale to what mindhax bullshit already? It's been over two years, and I'm still hearing completely different shit from different people.
@MrKingOfNegativity: To be fair, seeing as this wiki has a problem with linking things like CRTs to profiles, finding the right rankings and reasonings can be a very tedious, difficult task when attempting to defend your arguements in Versus Debates.
@Schnee One: It would literally only be Sasuke and the Edo Tensei who would get that resistance. If not for Sasuke's left eye and his Susano'o, So6P Naruto, Kakashi, and Sakura would have all fallen under the spell, while the Edo Tensei are immune to it because they can't be turned into White Zetsu, which is the true purpose of the IT anyway.
Vader's mind hax works on people with resistance to planetary mindhax

Alternatively, he crushes Sasuke's eye and then haxes
WeeklyBattles said:
Vader's mind hax works on people with resistance to planetary mindhax
Alternatively, he crushes Sasuke's eye and then haxes
That'd require Vader to have pre-knowledge that Sasuke's left eye is the source of his resistance.

Anyway, I made a thread about Darth Nox (SWTOR) vs. Sasuke Uchiha (Adult) a while back. Darth Nox being one of the few Sith who has never canonically used organ-crushing at all, and rarely uses even TK blasts, preferring to lead with lightning and lightsaber. Would that battle be more fair?
Vader has precognition good enough that in-combat, it can tell him the exact functions of his enemies' abilities? Man, you'd think that would have been more helpful during the original trilogy, like being able to forsee his own death.

Seriously, though, when has Vader ever used precog like that?
This is Legends Vader, not the canon version, so uh...

Yeah, that whole thing about the OT doesn't mean anything.

Also, if I'm not mistaken, he died protecting Luke from Sidious' Force Lightning, not from something he just didn't see coming.
Yeah, but that still hasn't answered my question. What precog feats does Vader have that would key him in on the exact nature and source of Sasuke's mind hax resistance?
I'm not the person to ask that. (Because I don't pay attention to Legends stuff most of the time) All I'm saying is that "Vader didn't foresee his own death in the OT" is a pretty ridiculous argument no matter what level of precog he has.