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Cthulhu Mythos: Time to Debunk one of the Greatest Myths in Versus Debating

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BTW, Azathoth (the user) has pretty much convinced me at this point, but I'm still iffy on the whole idea that Azathoth (the character) is dreaming literally everything into existence, when I have read several of Lovecraft's works, and only Fungi from Yuggoth mentions anything about Azathoth dreaming of things - even then, I don't see what part of it says anything other than just "Azathoth is dreaming up things that he doesn't understand."
 
Yeah, Azzy has largely convinced me as well, after reading through some of the relevant excerpts. Although, I am starting to personally think that comparing Azathoth and Yog-Sothoth / The Supreme Archetype is mostly a pointless task, mainly because of how Lovecraft seems to go back and forth between two perspectives when describing the Ultimate Abyss and its inhabitants, namely:

1. We have the in-universe perspective of it, which is an unlightened cavern that lies in a state of utter chaos beyond all existence, where Azathoth reigns supreme in an hexagonal throne. This seems to be the side where the Ultimate Gods are often treated as actual beings with characteristics ("nameless paw", "accursed flutes", "primal evil too horrible for description") and are even shown to produce larvae and to have been born at the same time space itself was.

2. Then we have the "true" nature of the Ultimate Void, which is more of an archetypal expanse devoid of individuality or causation, where the Outer Gods are defined less as entities and moreso as aspects and functions of a completely static and unchanging world, that exist beyond perspective itself in the first place.

As far we know, the family tree of the Mythos' entities could very well be defined under the framework of the first (local and fractional) viewpoint, where the Gods are treated as literal entities that can breed and produce offspring, and given how TtGotSK goes out of its way to point out how such relationships are irrelevant and fragmentary in respect to the Archetypes themselves, I wouldn't say this is too much of a stretch or an uneducated guess.

(Besides, as far as I know, TtGotSK itself was co-written by another author called E. Hoffman Price, who drew heavily from stuff like Theosophy for his writing, so the discrepancies between what's in the story and the content present in Lovecraft's other works can be contextually understood fairly well when one keeps this in mind, although I may be getting ahead of myself here)

Besides this, we have the fact that Azathoth and the Supreme Archetype's characteristics are... Suspiciously similar, given how both are defined as centerpoints for the cosmology (in differing ways, admitedly) and boundless figures that have influence over all else (Azathoth being "lord of all" and the SA being "existence's last, unbounded sweep", as well as "chief among the archetypes"), so their standing in the hierarchy of the Mythos (If we choose to view it as an unified thing and not just a guy and his friends writing random shit while referencing one another) could very well be equivalent, or we could simply say it doesn't really matter, as perspective and causations cease to be on such a level and everything becomes one, so comparisions in the context of their (inherently vague) verse aren't too meaningful. I am more inclined to stick with the latter, myself.

also I ******* love how this thread at first glance looks like it's just trying to debunk Azathoth being the dreamer of everything yet everyone and their moms kept aiming straight into "he is not sooprem beeng #TeamYog" since the start of it
 
All things considered, I don't think I would be opposed to giving tier 0 to both Azathoth and Yog-Sothoth, since for all intents and purposes, both exist as all-encompassing metabeings governing everything on a fundamental level. This includes the Outer Gods and their Ultimate Void, which are High 1-A based on agreements over Discord.

I have to sleep now, so I cannot explain anything about these tiers.
 
This seems mostly settled then.

I would still greatly appreciate if Azathoth and FanofRPGs would be willing to write an official explanation page for the Cthulhu Mythos hierarchy, as it would help a lot to avoid these types of discussions in the future, and avoid confusion from our visitors.
 
Alright, I just woke up, so I'll share what I know about the cosmology. Hopefully, the explanation I provide is sufficient.

In the third dimension, there are known to be an infinite number of universes. Each universe is infinite in scope. The third dimension in its entirety is trivialized by the fourth dimension, as it is described as being cut from it. From the four-dimensional perspective, everything that has happened, is happening, and will happen on the three-dimensional level exists simultaneously. The fifth dimension similarly trivializes the fourth dimension, and this chain continues unto infinity.

Above all of dimensional space, we have either the "limitless vacua beyond all thought and entity" or the multiplicity of Gates. Take your pick - I see them as being adjacent hierarchies. Either way, these are realms that run deeper than space and time, and since there are infinitely many dimensions of time-space, we can equalize this to 1-A with no issue.

Beyond these sequences of deeper metaphysical realities, sitting at the metaphorical edge of existence, we come to the Last Void. Now, what makes the ultimate void of chaos be High 1-A is that it is the realm of the Outer Gods. What's so special about them? They are transcendent archetypes who exist beyond all local perspectives and any system of causality, viewing the entire cosmos as a unified, unchanging whole. This applies across all levels of existence.

Finally, we have the top dogs of the Cthulhu Mythos: Azathoth and Yog-Sothoth. If you want my two cents, both of them can be tier 0 due to how they are treated. As Ultima has pointed out, they both are depicted as boundless "master of all" type beings, and as the focal point of the entire verse. I don't see how they can be meaningfully compared, frankly.
 
Well, we need something considerably more in-depth, preferably with quoted examples, for an official cosmology page.
 
Antvasima said:
I would still greatly appreciate if Azathoth and FanofRPGs would be willing to write an official explanation page for the Cthulhu Mythos hierarchy, as it would help a lot to avoid these types of discussions in the future, and avoid confusion from our visitors.
Click to expand...
I think that this is important, especially as Azathoth plans to leave the wiki.
 
Okay. Thanks. We need an official regular page that explains the tiering for the verse in an easy to understand manner though.
 
I do still agree with the point of this thread involving fixing certain bits of misinformation, though. I should check through the Mythos pages and see what needs to be updated.

A few minor things off the top of my head:

  • Anything referring to Nyar as "lesser", since everything we see of him is an avatar.
  • Yog's 'Umr at-Tawil key should probably be renamed "The Ancient Ones", since the story states all the Ancient Ones are Yog's manifestation, not just 'Umr at-Tawil.
  • Randolph Carter's Archetype key should either be removed (his archetype is Yog) or updated to his "Beyond the Gate Fragment" or something. If we do the latter, I think that maybe he should just be Unknown. Said fragment exists outside of all space and time, but is still just Carter at that particular "moment".
I'm sure there's a bunch more.

Edit: I'm also not opposed to giving both Yog and Azzy 0 if people think that is preferable (don't have super strong opinions about this). As I said, a lot of the mythos is about interpretation, and I've already laid out my reasons for Azathoth being at the top when attempting to unify this into some sort of semi-cohesive whole, but this doesn't really take away from the grand scale Yog is supposed to occupy, either.
 
@Azathoth

Would you be willing to write an official explanation page for us regarding the CM tiering reasons?
 
Bump.

To elaborate, I can get behind the idea that Azathoth > Yog-Sothoth, but I do not believe that Azzy transcends Yog. In my opinion, these two share the maximum ontological status. Azathoth "dreamed up" all of existence, which is embodied by Yog-Sothoth, and sits at the center of it all. If Azathoth is the king, then Yog-Sothoth is the kingdom.
 
The wording still makes it sound implied that Azathoth was the one who created Yog. Saying that Yog is everything where as Azathoth is the passive creator of everything. I may be misunderstanding certain details and Former Staff Azzy would definitely be more informed, but I agree with him regardless.
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
@Agnaa

"Gilman decided he had picked up that last conception from what he had read in the Necronomicon about the mindless entity Azathoth, which rules all time and space from a curiously environed black throne at the centre of Chaos."

Then you have the "ancient legends" of The Haunter of the Dark, which come from the protagonist reading the Necronomicon and other such dark tomes.

The reason most people know about Azathoth, just like Yog-Sothoth, is because of the Necronomicon. The exact same Necronomicon which refers to Yog-Sothoth as containing past, present, and future refers to Azathoth as the being who "rules all time and space" and as "Lord of All Things".

Again, the Necronomicon is fractional, but suggests Azathoth to be at the top, which Lovecraft did, as well.

The issue with putting Yog-Sothoth somewhere above him is that it is not backed by any actual statements in-universe (Azathoth is never mentioned in TtGotSK) nor author statements (the single comparative thing we have between them from Lovecraft places Azathoth higher).

If this is more an issue about "none of these quotes mention the Supreme Archetype", I will again mention that the Supreme Archetype is Yog-Sothoth; every name used to refer to the same creature in TtGotSK is written in all caps. "YOG-SOTHOTH", "BEING", "ENTITY", "PRESENCE", "SUPREME ARCHETYPE", etc.
Click to expand...
But those views are fractional and irrelevant to the true nature of both of them. The fraction of Azzy being > the fraction of Yog means nothing. And similarly, the lineage chart showing the fraction of Azzy being > the fraction of Yog means nothing for their true natures.

Since we don't have substantial info on Azzy's true nature it should be Unknown, but since we know Yog's true nature as the Supreme Archetype, it should be >> the fractions of Azzy and Yog.

SA >>>>> f.Azzy > f.Yog

T.Azzy = Unknown
 
Yeah, I can see Agnaa's point here. As I said on the post above, Lovecraft kind of goes back and forth between two differing viewpoints when describing the Ultimate Abyss and its inhabitants, and the most prominent descriptions of it that are written about outside of TtGotSK are in turn pretty explicitly pertaining to a fractional perception of the true, archetypal nature of these entities, but that is directly experienced by the protagonists multiple times, nonetheless.

For instance, the whole sonnet of Fungi from Yuggoth describing Azathoth has the protagonist being taken to the Ultimate Void where the Outer Gods reside, and even sees Nyarlathotep striking Azathoth in the head in comtempt. And then we have Dream-Quest for Unknown Kaddath, where Randolph Carter interacts with larval Outer Gods, something which implies relationships the Archetypes completely trivialize in the first place.

Hence, I'd like to propose we give them two keys: One for the fractionary, local identities we know as "The Outer Gods", and another for the nameless archetypes from TtGotSK, which are all united in the totality of the Supreme Archetype. In other words:

High 1-A | 0
 
(The following post is being made on Aeyu's behalf)

Okay, for start, 'Azathoth' being "above" 'Yog-Sothoth' doesn't really make much sense, nor does the lineage chart. The archetypes, especially the Supreme Archetype, form a "changless totality beyond perspective". The idea of these beings stemming from some linear causality makes no sense contextually speaking. "But what if it's on some level we don't understand," is invalid as well, as it is directly stated they exist beyond perspective and the Archetypes govern all angles of every (particular) thing, united in the Supreme Archetype which is (universal). Furthermore, even if Azzy did "precede" Yog, why is that immediately evidence of Azzy being > Yog? Simply originating before something isn't necessarily proof that the preceding thing is above the other.

(It was an All-in-One and One-in-All of limitless being and self—not merely a thing of one Space-Time continuum, but allied to the ultimate animating essence of existence's whole unbounded sweep—the last, utter sweep which has no confines and which outreaches fancy and mathematics alike.)

Saying that an individual being with an identity is above this doesn't really make sense with the context being given that this is clearly stated to be the be-all-end all. Additionally, conceptions like a name such as "Yog-Sothoth" are considered to be fragmentary misconceptions which don't address the full scope of this "changeless totality", so why would the same not apply to Azathoth? I think it'd be much better to consider Azathoth and Yog-Sothoth as a Monad or Absolute united in a Supreme Archetype, which is supported by Yog being this all-encompassing outside shell with Azathoth as its nucleus.

In conclusion. I think a much better solution to all of our woes would be to rate all "Outer Gods" as fractional entities with individual identity as High 1-A, and to rate those things which participate in a changeless totality beyond any perspective given as 0 (All Outer gods' "true form", Azathoth, Yog-Sothoth)
 
@Ultima Which profiles exactly would get those two keys?
 
Remember when people where saying theres no chance of a verse getting 3 tier 0s and yet now CM is getting like 8+ ovo
 
Let's wait for a response from Azathoth first.

Also, why would all Outer Gods get a tier 0 key? I mean, what is the hierarchical validation behind it?
 
@Antvasima I'm not super educated on CM, but to my understanding the short version is:

The current tiers for those profiles for the fractional viewings of the Outer Gods. They have local identities, relationships, and other things like that.

The tier 0 key would be for their nameless archetypes united in the totality of the Supreme Archetype. For their true forms; as a changeless totality beyond perspective.
 
Okay. I am not sure whether or not that qualifies for tier 0 though.
 
From what i understand, a small fraction of em are High 1-A hence why their true form get the Tier 0 since their true form is a changeless totality beyond any perspective.
 
Okay, and what is the rationale for making the fractions of regular Outer Gods High 1-A?
 
Well, all I really know is that the local, fractional Outer Gods transcend the limitless hierarchy of vacua. I'll make a post... probably later today with quotes to support the High 1-A stuff.
 
Because all what we know about em in the mythos (yes what we used to give them their Tier) is just a small fraction of them. CMIIW
 
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