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Cthulhu Mythos: Time to Debunk one of the Greatest Myths in Versus Debating

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Bumping this, because I have made up a rough outline of my plans for revising the verse (in no particular order):
  • Get some profiles deleted (I know at least one that I would like to get rid of)
  • Create a new CRT for the Outer Gods (because this one has strayed far from its original purpose, plus OP is banned anyway)
  • Create another new CRT to address other, less popular profiles (particularly Hypnos, I hate this guy's profile in its current state)
  • Finish that blog I wanted to make after God knows how long (which I am certain will need to be split up into parts at this point)
Let me know what you think, it's like midnight here and so I really need to sleep soon.
 
I do not know. The Cthulhu Mythos is an important high-tiered fiction, so we would need considerable input from our most knowledgeable members in a specific revision thread before we launch any major revisions.
 
Wouldn't it be better to just work on it as a group of people (in a conversation/group/whatever), then decide a plan?

Hypnos being separated from Outer Gods CRT seems weird too, since some people are arguing for him being part of the gods' tier reasonning.
 
I suppose that could be a good idea.

Here is our list of knowledgeable members:

vsbattles.fandom.com

Knowledgeable Members List (Verses)

This page is intended to be a list in alphabetical order of every verse page in this wiki, and the members who think that they are highly knowledgeable regarding them. Members who consider themselves as "experts" should have a significant amount of knowledge regarding a franchise, and are...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
 
So going by the active members it would be: the ones on the list (Uldmaster, Planck69, Matthew, Roachman04) myself (didn't read every single story but a good part), KingPin0422, Ovy7 and Bobsican?

Correct me if I'm wrong.
 
Hmm... I recall that some VS Battles revision projects have Discord servers dedicated to them. Perhaps one of us can set up such a server for the Cthulhu Mythos' revisions in order to have it better organized and easier to manage?
 
Wait, me? I'm not actually into Cthulhu Mythos to actually help in research or stuff like that beyond what someone not into it may comment over what's brought up.
I'm still willing to help by commenting if that could be used, however.
 
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Good that you are willing to help. Thank you.

However, please make sure to read all of Azathoth's (the retired bureaucrat) old explanation blogs first, so no mistakes are made.
 
Nothing's decided yet as far as I know, but he could be anything between tier 1-A/1-A+ and 0 tbh.
 
I thought that there was talk of upgrading all of the Outer Gods, such as Nyarlathotep, to tier 0.

Anyway, we already have perfectly fine and elaborate definitions as a basis for our current Cthulhu Mythos tiers. Is a revision truly necessary, or would it just leave the verse worse off than before?

I do not think that this should be a prioritised revision focus in any case.
 
If it would make the profiles worst, then it would just get refused tbh.

Trying to make things better is always better than leaving them unoticed.
 
Well, I am just saying that Azathoth did a very thorough job with writing blogs filled with elaborate information as a foundation for our current statistics, so any replacement would need to provide at least a comparable degree of highly reliable content.

Also, we have plenty of prominent verses with poor definitions and validations as a basis, so is it really appropriate to focus on one of the best ones that we have available in that regard?
 
It's the most natural thing to do yeah. Can hardly be called an amelioration if it's not at least as good (tbh Azatoth blog only has 1/2 interpretations bit I have problems with personnally, not sure for the others).

I don't think which verse is revised when matter that much tbh. Like sure there's a tons of verses which need to be revised (even among the well-made ones) but if a verse has people willing to revise it it would be counter-productive to not allow it because some are in a worse state.
 
Antvasima said:
I thought that there was talk of upgrading all of the Outer Gods, such as Nyarlathotep, to tier 0.
Click to expand...
It's more like they'd all get tier 0 keys than upgrading them to all be just tier 0, but that is something yet to be discussed.

Either way, the profiles technically still use the old tiering system, with Yog-Sothoth and Azathoth being tier 0 yet the other Outer Gods only being 1-A, and the likes of Hypnos and Nodens also being 1-A. We need to at least try to make a successful revision, otherwise these profiles will become even more outdated than they already are. I mean, even Azathoth (the bureaucrat) himself said that the verse is in need of some tuning-up.
 
Okay. That is probably fine then, but new thorough explanation blogs would need to be written. You can largely base them on the old ones if you wish.
 
I will keep that in mind. I believe Azathoth's blog mostly focuses on characters and species, though, doesn't it? I'd like to also cover the cosmology of the verse, which is what my WIP blog aims to do (albeit with a section dedicated to the Outer Gods). I know that both blogs will be very large, but I expect people to read them in full if they want a thorough comprehension of why certain ratings were chosen.
 
KingPin0422 said:
I will keep that in mind. I believe Azathoth's blog mostly focuses on characters and species, though, doesn't it? I'd like to also cover the cosmology of the verse, which is what my WIP blog aims to do (albeit with a section dedicated to the Outer Gods). I know that both blogs will be very large, but I expect people to read them in full if they want a thorough comprehension of why certain ratings were chosen.
Click to expand...
It focus on characters which have to do with part of the cosmology. Hypnos and TTGOTSK mainly.
 
Okay. You may need to copy the blog contents, slightly modify some parts related to tiering, and then post them as new blogs that we link to in the relevant CM pages and the wiki navigation bar then.
 
Close. They were planned to get tier 0 keys based off of the contrast between the "archetypes" depicted in Through the Gates of the Silver Key, which are stated to be eternal, static, and the inhabitants of "existence's whole unbounded sweep [...] which has no confines and which outreaches fancy and mathematics alike," and the "other gods" depicted in basically every other story, which are shown in a different light to the Archetypes - particularly, in The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath, it is stated that the Outer Gods are able to reproduce, as well as to have been born at the same time space itself was.

With this being said, I have found some things that might cast some doubt on the validity of this distinction, but we'll see.
 
Out of curiosity, whatever happened to the whole canonicity issue of CM works? Is it purely HPL stuff now or what?
 
I think that only the parts written by or approved by HPL is supposed to be counted.
 
How far does that go? The Hounds of Tindalos are referenced by Lovecraft but their actual details are from another author entirely. Would they still count or is it purely Lovecraft?
 
I do not think that we are supposed to use the extended canon, but do not know anything more than that.
 
Personally I would stick only to the informations contained within Lovecraft's works, because a lot of other authors extended or modified things without his approval, picking only some instead of others would be wrong, and picking everything is just impossible, contradictory and even more wrong.

The only other authors that should be considered are those esplicity accepted by Lovecraft himself through letters and more, like Robert Howard, Clark Ashton Smith and maybe someone else I don't remember at the moment.

For the contributions of other people we can just make alternative profiles, just like we do with the same characters that appear in more recent products like videogames etc...
 
That makes good sense to me.
 
What about using the authors from FanofRPGs canon blog (Smith, Robert Howard, Long etc.)? They seem to acknowledge each other enough.
 
Uhhh.. So what's the final decision then ? I obviously can't skim through 300+ replies with most of them being too big-brain for a basic like me. Is Azzy getting downgraded now ? Is Yog superior to Azzy now ? Someone help plz.
 
The plan, at least currently, is to split the Outer God profiles into two keys: a High 1-A key for the "other gods," which have a family tree and can reproduce and were born alongside space itself, yet still have statements of being beyond physics and mathematics and being in a chaotic void where no dreams reach, all in relation to an ambiguously tall 1-A hierarchy that can be accessed through drug-induced dreams (as seen in Hypnos); and a 0 key for the "archetypes," which are the eternal and static origins of all lineages of beings on any level, as well as the population of "existence's whole unbounded sweep [...] which has no confines and which outreaches fancy and mathematics alike."

The Archetypes themselves are unified under the Supreme Archetype, which is described as the "All-in-One and One-in-All of limitless being and self" and as the "ultimate animating essence of existence's whole unbounded sweep" (which, again, refers to the abyss in which the Archetypes dwell), and also is considered chief among the Archetypes and implicitly is to them what the Archetypes are to everything else (due to the mention of one eternal archetype when revealing the nature of existence to Randolph Carter, presumably referring to itself).

However, this is still very tentative and we still need to look at things to decide for ourselves if this is valid or not. If anyone has points of contention with the idea we have going on, they should feel free to voice them and I or someone else working on the revisions will hear them out. Even if our plan falls through, I'm confident that this verse will be tier 0 anyway - although we would then need to discuss who is greater between Yog-Sothoth and Azathoth in such a case.
 
Neat. If I may ask, what will become of Nyarlathotep? Will he have 3 keys if this is the case?
 
Yeah. The keys would probably look like this:

Tier: Varies, up to High 1-A | High 1-A | 0

The first key refers to Nyarlathotep's avatars, which can freely access and survive in the Outer Void without assistance, even bringing mortals to it on a whim. This includes the humanoid entity identified as Nyarlathotep. The second key, of course, refers to Nyarlathotep as an Outer God, and then the third key is his essential Archetype which participates in the whole, unbounded, last and utter sweep of existence.
 
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