Cthulhu Mythos: Time to Debunk one of the Greatest Myths in Versus Debating

[Overlord4896]

i like how this argument looks and it looks pretty good but something i would like just to state about Azathoth. Azathoth isnt actually sleeping at all, he is also isnt mindless or dumb at all. These descriptions are trying to comprhend what azzy is as all beings dont understand azzy or his motives, hence the title of blind idiot god and iirc the the 'blind' and 'idiot' part of this statment was just to refer to how azzy compeltely ignores the rest of creation with none within this creation able to understand what is azzy or his motives, the idiot in this sentence more refers to the original greek roots of the word which was "ignorant person" which would make sense with the context from above. all we see of yog and azzy and the rest of the outer gods in the mythos is a mere fractional view of what they actually are, a fractual view that iirc that is compleltely wrong but is the only thing the lower beings can percieve them by. so the thing with nyar hitting azzy in the face? never actually happened as they exist in such a level where there is no change and the such, just as everything else in the mythos. even then the thing nyar hit was most likely not Azathoth but a mere placeholder or avatar. otherwise everything here looks good.

 

[ShivaShakti]

I have mixed thoughts on that.
How would this even effect other Outer Gods?

Outer gods except for Azzy and Yog have no hierarchy. They are so powerful they see hierarchies as irrelevant either way.

 

[LordWhis]

Honestly I have always had doubts about relating Cthulhu mythos to vs debating in the first place. It's all really vague and poetic.

At the end of the day, Lovecraft was a strange dude who wrote some strange shit.

He was the Lionel Suggs of the 1930s.

 

[Antvasima]

Lovecraft was actually a skilled and highly innovative author though.

 

[PsychoWarper]

So hes Suggs but if he was a very good writer and extremely racist

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

Suggs is good a walls of descriptive language, and not much else.

 

[Salchipipe]

Just giving my two cents here, I always thought that Azathoth would be the head, because of his description as the "Nuclear Chaos" and Lovecraft's relation with religion.

He always thought that it was absurd, so it he made Azathoth as the opposite of the caring creator, the one that made all things with a purpose. Azathoth isn't an idiot literally, but he is the ultimate origin, chaos. Creation sprung forth randomly, without reason, and it may be destroyed the same way.

If Yog-Sothoth was the supreme being, what would be the point then? An indifferent god, yes, but one that still grants those he deems worthy of knowledge, and answers the calls of sorcerers. Why give so much enphasis on Azathoth, the daemon-sultan at the center of infinity, the Lord of All Things beyond angled space, were everything is Chaos, without form or place?

I don't have truly solid arguments for this honestly, besides Lovecraft's opinion of religion. Just thought I would share my thoughts.

 

[Antvasima]

Salchipipe seems to make a good point.

 

[Maxnumb231]

Azathoth is called "the lord of outer gods" and thats consistently been stated meanwhile as Fan and KingPin pointed out, yog is the one true platonic god and the supreme being.

 

[FanofRPGs]

Just giving my two cents here, I always thought that Azathoth would be the head, because of his description as the "Nuclear Chaos" and Lovecraft's relation with religion.
He always thought that it was absurd, so it he made Azathoth as the opposite of the caring creator, the one that made all things with a purpose. Azathoth isn't an idiot literally, but he is the ultimate origin, chaos. Creation sprung forth randomly, without reason, and it may be destroyed the same way.

If Yog-Sothoth was the supreme being, what would be the point then? An indifferent god, yes, but one that still grants those he deems worthy of knowledge, and answers the calls of sorcerers. Why give so much enphasis on Azathoth, the daemon-sultan at the center of infinity, the Lord of All Things beyond angled space, were everything is Chaos, without form or place?

I don't have truly solid arguments for this honestly, besides Lovecraft's opinion of religion. Just thought I would share my thoughts.

Lovecraft actually gave much more influence on Yog Sothoth if you read through his stories. Azzy is always passingly stated to be the king of all. Yog Sothoth gets a whole section in one of Lovecraft's largest stories reiterating 1000 times how he is Transcendent to all concepts and forms of infinity. He is stated in much more abstract and wholly large terms, while Azathoth if anything is more condescending and more comparable to the demiurge

 

[Salchipipe]

@FanofRPGs

I know that. What I thought in a way is, Azathoth is described in such ways, because there isn't another way to put it. This "thing", from were everything comes, is so far beyond all, that no worlds could fully describe it. So, Lovecraft said it was chaos. Nothing but chaos that randomly combines and suddenly a thing comes forth. The chaos before and beyond everything

Of course, I'm mostly going with my own interpretations. I read TtSGaK, and I get why Yog-Sothoth could be argued to be the actual supreme being.

But I don't know. It just doesn't make sense to me. Like I (kind of) said before, if memory serves, the creation legends from were the concept "chaos" comes, put it as the void before everything, before anything was.

Why would give this entity such a title, and constantly say how it is the ruler of everything, how horrible and unfathomable he is, almost present him as a mockery of the typical creator, if in the end it's just going to be an aspect of a bigger thing?

I think I'm getting too romantic.

Well, it is just my interpretation. In any case, I'll respect wathever decition you guys take, but for me, Azathoth will always be the head.

 

[Maxnumb231]

Well you can keep your opinion but factually according to many works of lovecraft Yog has more STATEMENTS regarding he's the supreme being than azathoth... The dream existence that azathoth has is being parrotted for years and needs to be stop

 

[ShivaShakti]

IMO Azathoth and Yog might just be the same being

 

[AlexZiggy]

Always thought it was odd Azathoth never made a personal appearance in the Last Void. Felt strange for him not get even a single mention. But there is one thing which actually supports the idea that Azathoth and Yog-Sothoth may be the same entity. In TtGotSK, the entity known as "Yog-Sothoth" isn't really referred to as such. He is always described as the being, the entity, the presence etc but never outright called Yog-Sothoth, and in fact it is stated that the being Carter was communicating with was that which some cults call "Yog-Sothoth". Perphaps they are the same entity, viewed differently by different observers

 

[FanofRPGs]

That is possible. Azathoth comes from the word Azoth which is a material elemental field which can be seen very similar to what Yog Sothoth represents

 

[PsychoWarper]

Ive heard it a few times that some believe that Yog is the mind while Azzy is the body or something like that.

 

[KingPin0422]

Azathoth's title of "Nuclear Chaos" is simply referencing the fact that he sits at the center of "ultimate chaos" on a throne. While I do think Azathoth can scale above the rest of the Outer Gods, I fail to see what puts him on the same level as Yog-Sothoth, much less on a higher one.

See, here's the thing about Yog-Sothoth: he is not one of the Outer Gods. He is simply the BEING, the ENTITY, the PRESENCE. As Through the Gates of the Silver Key establishes, he is on a completely different level from the Outer Gods- they are just as distant from his BEING as lowly humans are. Meanwhile, Azathoth sleeps at the center of the Last Void as I said before, and he is lord among the Outer Gods... but he is an Outer God himself.

As for the belief that Yog-Sothoth and Azathoth are one and the same... yeah, we've discarded that shit. It's quite obvious that there is a distinction between the two, even if there are no stories from the Lovecraft Circle that feature both of them at once. Again, Azathoth is an Outer God who reigns over the other Outer Gods- basically a figurehead. The BEING is something quite beyond the "Outer God" classification altogether.

Can I also mention that Lovecraft didn't care about having a consistent cosmology? The entire point of the Outer Gods is that they are impersonal, archetypal deities whose true nature is unknowable. It's kind of a given that mere humans would only be able to perceive infinitesimal "cross-sections" (for lack of a better term) of beings that fundamentally transcend all systems of causality, and perceive the cosmos as a unified wholeness rather than in fragmentary, limited terms.

 

[KingPin0422]

And Fan, for Jove's sake, no one cares about Neoplatonism or "The One". It's literally irrelevant to how the Outer Gods and Yog-Sothoth are presented by Lovecraft himself. If you think there is a correlation, sure, whatever, but please stop talking about it like it matters to this site.

 

[ShivaShakti]

And Fan, for Jove's sake, no one cares about Neoplatonism or "The One". It's literally irrelevant to how the Outer Gods and Yog-Sothoth are presented by Lovecraft himself. If you think there is a correlation, sure, whatever, but please stop talking about it like it matters to this site.

Think youre being a bit hostile here. Calm tf down.

 

[KingPin0422]

Perhaps I am. Still, even if there is a correlation between Yog-Sothoth and The One, this piece of trivia does not belong on Yog's profile. I won't mind if it's mentioned on a Cthulhu Mythos respect blog, however.

 

[Maxnumb231]

all that i have seen so far there hasnt been any arguments against yog>azzy and the only "arguments" against is going on semantics on how azathoth has been portrayed... however i havent seen any consistent passage texts when it comes to azzy>yog far more constant than Yog>azzy

 

[FanofRPGs]

all that i have seen so far there hasnt been any arguments against yog>azzy and the only "arguments" against is going on semantics on how azathoth has been portrayed... however i havent seen any consistent passage texts when it comes to azzy>yog far more constant than Yog>azzy

Link me these texts. I will give you a hint, Lovecraft, nor none of the circle (Aside for Derleth who has the collective outer gods > Azathoth), ever directly compares Azathoth to Yog Sothoth. Rarely are they even in the main story. So we go by appearances.

-In the Dunwich Horror and The Whisperer in Darkness, it's emphasized Yog Sothoth represents the gate to dreams and is the key to it and thus is the dream world itself. Not just Carter's subjective dreamworld, but all of it.

-In Through the Gates of the Silver Key, Yog Sothoth is described as a BEING transcendant to the outer void, all gods, men, archetypes, and forms

In comparison, what we have for Azathoth:

-A vague poem that he dreams of everything

-That he is the lord of all

-He is the center of infinity

-Nyarlathotep isn't afraid to knock him while asleep

-Constantly described as dumb, delerious, and delusional

There is just a disparity in potrayal. Yog Sothoth is portrayed more loftily, more majestically, more divinely, and of a grander scale

 

[KingPin0422]

I can understand being in disbelief when something that has been circulating throughout the VS debating community for several years turns out to be wrong, but I kind of feel like certain people here (will not drop any names) are resorting to the "appeal to tradition" fallacy to keep Azathoth at the top.

 

[DarkGrath]

Can I ask where exactly the dumb, delirious and delusional thing comes from? I'm not doubting you on that point, but as someone who has at least some knowledge of the Mythos, I can't remember ever hearing anything like that.

The most I remember for sure is that he's referred to as the "Blind Idiot God", and as far as I'm aware, this wasn't about his intelligence. "Idiot" was used as a term in a far more traditional sense, not regarding someone of low intelligence, but rather that he is someone who completely and intentionally separates themselves from the whole. And apart from that, I can't remember a single instance off the top of my head where Azathoth was considered unintelligent.

 

[KingPin0422]

The idea of ''any'' Outer God being unintelligent is flawed. These beings are so far beyond comprehension that it's impossible for lower beings to understand how they act or think. I agree with you on that part.

 

[Antvasima]

Has somebody informed Azathoth the bureaucrat about this thread yet?

 

[DarkGrath]

I have done so.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I am ridiculously tired (so excuse any errors), and only really commenting on the Yog stuff because I agree that too many false ideas about Azathoth come from outside material, so this reply will be brief, but I do believe this is a completely plausible interpretation. Partially because names in Lovecraft's work are a funny thing when applied to these higher beings.

As is stated in Through the Gates of the Silver Key, the entity that Carter encounters isn't exactly Yog-Sothoth. It is what some earth cults have called Yog-Sothoth, but "Yog-Sothoth" is a fractional and incomplete view of a completely boundless entity, just as all other views of said entity are incomplete by their very nature. It is often referred to Yog-Sothoth, both by other writers and Lovecraft himself, for the sake of simplicity, but this is not truly accurate within the mythos itself. Saying something akin to "the entity known as Yog-Sothoth" or even just "THE ENTITY"/"PRESENCE"/etc. as used in the actual story would be more appropriate.

Because of this, one could say the Yog-Sothoth referenced in things such as the family tree is the "Yog-Sothoth" created from the limited viewing of this greater being, which does sort of tie into the cosmology. Is this the "correct"/intended reading? I can't really say, as Lovecraft left much up to interpretation. But I also don't think it's entirely correct to disregard letters, and assume Azathoth was placed at the top for no reason, at all.

I've gone back and forth a bunch on this topic over the years, and where my position currently stands is, "Azathoth at the top when attempting to unify the works into a greater cosmology", but "The ENTITY/'Yog-Sothoth' at the top when looking solely at the quotes from Through the Gates of the Silver Key". I'm not sure I'd call putting either at the top to be entirely incorrect due to the extreme vagueness we have to work with.

Maybe I'll argue for my viewpoint when I'm more awake, but this is definitely a topic worth discussing.

 

[Antvasima]

@Azathoth

Thank you for helping out. It is nice that you still visit the wiki sometimes.

 

[Agnaa]

To play a bit of devil's advocate, why are we disregarding some letter statements due to Lovecraft's nonseriousness and inconsistency but using other letter statements as evidence of contradiction here?

To demonstrate that if you take the letters as legitimate evidence it creates a contradiction.

I think that's a fine thing to do. If someone says that something non-canon is proof of something, you can say that it's non-canon while also saying that the same non-canon material contradicts that claim.

 

[Zeifyl]

Pick.

High 1-A isn't even close to 0.

 

[KingPin0422]

@Azathoth

You make sense, actually. Yeah, Yog-Sothoth is absolutely not the same thing as the ENTITY. He's just a slight and fractional viewing of IT, as all limited beings have their own conception of this BEING, none of which come close to describing what IT really is.

The only issue is, how do we relate Azathoth to the BEING? We have been entertaining the idea of rendering "Azathoth" and "Yog-Sothoth" as one and the same- merging their profiles into a single page named "Supreme Archetype". In my opinion, the keys can be divided up as follows:

'Umr at-Tawil | Yog-Sothoth | Azathoth | Supreme Archetype

What do you think?

 

[Overlord4896]

interesting, perhaps maybe?

 

[KingPin0422]

Actually, I dunno. Azzy is more likely his own thing, not exactly related to Yog-Sothoth or the Supreme Archetype, except as a mere phase of the latter. It's kind of a mess, right now.

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

High 1-A isn't even close to 0.

The upper bounds of high 1-A are only a single transcendence below baseline 0.

 

[KingPin0422]

Yeah, scratch that previous thing altogether. Azathoth and Yog-Sothoth really are not anything alike. The latter is the Outer God that humans associate with the Supreme Archetype, being their incomplete understanding of it. The former is simply lord among the Outer Gods. There is nothing suggesting that Azathoth has a similar nature to Yog-Sothoth that I can see.

 

[ShivaShakti]

Yeah, scratch that previous thing altogether. Azathoth and Yog-Sothoth really are not anything alike. The latter is the Outer God that humans associate with the Supreme Archetype, being their incomplete understanding of it. The former is simply lord among the Outer Gods. There is nothing suggesting that Azathoth has a similar nature to Yog-Sothoth that I can see.

Well at the very least we know Azathoth is no normal Outer God, considering he's stated "Lord of All", and the other Outer Gods lul'd him to sleep in the hopes he doesn't wake the **** up.

 

[Maxnumb231]

Azathoth is labeled to be lord of outer gods not "All"

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Azathoth is labeled to be lord of outer gods not "All"

This is incorrect. The Haunter of the Dark gives him the title of "Lord of All Things", and he is also referred to as "Lord of All" in Fungi from Yuggoth. As I said above, I don't believe viewing these as 100% concrete is the only "correct" interpretation, but he is directly referred to as ruling over everything on more than one occasion.

 

[KingPin0422]

I still think the Yog-Sothoth (Cthulhu Mythos) profile should have three keys:

The first key is 'Umr at-Tawil.

The second key is Yog-Sothoth.

The third key is the Supreme Archetype.