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Cthulhu Mythos: Time to Debunk one of the Greatest Myths in Versus Debating

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I'm gonna have to look at the quotes again, but I suspect you are correct. The basis is that Yog-Sothoth is what humanity associates with the Supreme Archetype, and is a mere phase of it, just as with literally everything else. Yog-Sothoth can be invoked by humans to perform certain deeds, whilst the Supreme Archetype is unapproachable.
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
What would the "Yog-Sothoth" key be based off of, though? The Yog-Sothoth who is mentioned in The Dunwich Horror? We're almost always referring to the Supreme Archetype when we talk about Yog-Sothoth, anyway. We just give it a name for simplicity's sake, just as the author did.
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Yog Sothtoth is the bulbous spherical version described in Horror at the Museum, likely also "Iok-Zothot" described in CAS' "Ubbo-Sathla" where he admitted the eponymous being predated. The Supreme Archetype would have no picture or just something super abstract and representative.

I would assume Umr' is just tiered to the gate, Yoggy physically to the Outer Gods/Azathoth, the BEING would > it all however
 
I'd actually like to point out that "Azathoth views existence as part of its dream" is a misinterpretation and the original interpretation was that he just created existence subconsciously by playing his flute in his sleep.
 
Isn't the exact quote about Yog in HitM " only a congeries of iridescent globes, yet stupendous in its malign suggestiveness"? This sounds remarkably similar to what occurred when the Ancient Ones (who are the ENTITY's manifestation) spoke to Carter, and the similar sensation that happened upon his talk with the Supreme Archetype itself.

One of my main issues is that I'm not sure Yog is an actual being cut from the SA. Carter, upon meeting the SA, recognizes that it is the being known as Yog-Sothoth, but that the Yog-Sothoth earth cults whisper of is a fractional conception of something they don't understand. I don't know if we can actually say that makes it a distinct entity, especially since Carter actually meets a manifestation of the SA, but only recognizes the Archetype itself as "Yog-Sothoth".
 
Well, here's the thing: "Yog-Sothoth" is only a slight and fractional conception of the Supreme Archetype. Every single species in the dimensioned multiverse has their own idea of the BEING, but none of them are anything more than fragmentary misrepresentations of "the last, utter sweep" of all existence.
 
KingPin0422 said:
Well, here's the thing: "Yog-Sothoth" is only a slight and fractional conception of the Supreme Archetype. Every single species in the dimensioned multiverse has their own idea of the BEING, but none of them are anything more than fragmentary misrepresentations of "the last, utter sweep" of all existence.
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Okay? Even then, the feats done by "Yog-Sothoth" are done by the Supreme Archetype, so there's no real reason to separate them.

It's not like Yog-Sothoth's feats would be lower than SA's, it's just that those species only recognize some of SA's feats as coming from Yog-Sothoth, and attribute the others elsewhere (or nowhere at all).
 
Yes, I always got the impression that it wasn't so much the case where Carter is cut from "bigger Carter or some shit" with Yog. The way it's written makes it sound more like people on Earth just call the SA Yog-Sothoth, but what they believe Yog-Sothoth to be is smaller than what the SA actually is. The SA is Yog-Sothoth, but Carter does not call it Yog-Sothoth, as that suggests an incomplete view of the thing.

I wouldn't say "ur wrong lol" to someone who believes otherwise, but I'm not sure the story itself supports that idea.
 
@Azathoth

Thank you for helping out.
 
So what is the final conclusion? Make a key between Umr, "Yog Sothoth" as in the orbs, and the Supreme Archetype? Or just two keys?
 
as far as i can tell from reading this thread is that both sides of the argument have quite valid interpertations of how the mythos works and and where its characters stand in the higharchy due to how vague everything is that describes the stuff we are disscusing. although i am leaning towards azzy's interpretations. i think the question now is what interpretation the wiki should use in the profiles.
 
wow we posted at exactly the same moment. anyway, i think we should keep it as it is but perhaps we could try something new where we show both interpretations on both of yog's and azzy's profiles as imo they are equally valid due to the vagness we have to deal with.
 
FanofRPGs said:
So what is the final conclusion? Make a key between Umr, "Yog Sothoth" as in the orbs, and the Supreme Archetype? Or just two keys?
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Giving Yog a Supreme archetype key and the UGs an Archetype key makes the most sense imo.
 
I think we should have three profiles:

Umr'at Tawil who is whatever the tiers the gates are I need to read the stories again

Yog-Sothoth as implied in the Dunwich Horror, Whisperer in Darkness, The Haunter of the Dark, and Ubbo Sathla, who is just standard outer god level, below Azathoth and Ubbo Sathla most likely

The Supreme Archetype, who transcends and encompasses all
 
i am fine with umr'at tawil bit but i do not agree with having yog and the supreme archetype being different profiles. when randolph carter met a manifestation of the supreme archtype he refered to it as how earth's cultists refer to it which is yog-sothoth as wrong and fractional as that view is from the cutlists' side, at the moment it was the only name randolph could give the supreme archtype even though he knew it was the supreme archetype.
 
For Yog Sothoth, use the bulbous sphere image. Here is some quotes on it:

For Ubbo-Sathla is the source and the end. Before the coming of Zhothaqquah or Yok-Zothoth or Kthulhut from the stars, Ubbo-Sathla dwelt in the steaming fens of the newmade Earth: a mass without head or members, spawning the grey, formless efts of the prime and the grisly prototypes of terrene life . . . And all earthly life, it is told, shall go back at last through the great circle of time to Ubbo-Sathla.
~ Ubbo-Sathla​
Imagination called up the shocking form of fabulous Yog-Sothoth—only a congeries of iridescent globes, yet stupendous in its malign suggestiveness.
~ The Horror at the Museum​
"Yog-Sothoth" knows the gate. "Yog-Sothoth" is the gate. "Yog-Sothoth" is the key and guardian of the gate. Past, present, future, all are one in "Yog-Sothoth." He knows where the Old Ones broke through of old, and where They shall break through again.
~ The Dunwich Horror​
 
@Azathoth

What do you think that we should do here? A new cosmology explanation page seems appropriate in any case.
 
While Yog-Sothoth is associated with the Supreme Archetype and identified as humanity's fragmentary idea of IT, Yog-Sothoth was also treated as if he were his own thing, as Fan has pointed out.

Remember, the Supreme Archetype has absolutely nothing resembling a form in any way. It makes no sense to say that it's omnipresent and invisible and whatnot if it really looks like a collection of spherical, rainbow-colored objects.

Overall, I see no issue with separating Yog-Sothoth from the Supreme Archetype as separate keys on a profile. For that matter, we should consider making a distinction between the Ultimate Gods and the Archetypes, too.
 
KingPin0422 said:
While Yog-Sothoth is associated with the Supreme Archetype and identified as humanity's fragmentary idea of IT, Yog-Sothoth was also treated as if he were his own thing, as Fan has pointed out.
Remember, the Supreme Archetype has absolutely nothing resembling a form in any way. It makes no sense to say that it's omnipresent and invisible and whatnot if it really looks like a collection of spherical, rainbow-colored objects.

Overall, I see no issue with separating Yog-Sothoth from the Supreme Archetype as separate keys on a profile. For that matter, we should consider making a distinction between the Ultimate Gods and the Archetypes, too.
Click to expand...
Alright so basically...

Umr At Tawil, and Yog are going to be Separate from Supreme Archetype.

Nyarlathotep, Shub, etc. will remain the same, they will just be upgraded to High 1-A.

Will the Ultimate Gods profile still exists, or will that be rewritten into the Archetypes?
 
I'm pretty sure that the Ultimate Gods and the Archetypes will be separate keys of one profile, both High 1-A IIRC (with the latter being one level of transcendence higher than the former).
 
Despite not having a lot of time, I figured I'd comment on this again because I think the whole discussion is interesting due to the varied interpretations that can be taken from the mythos.

First of all, I'd like to talk about the quotes that people are saying suggest Yog is a different being entirely from the Supreme Archetype, and not just people looking at an incomplete view of it.

The quote from Ubbo-Sathla mentions that "Yok-Zothoth" came "from the stars", which puts him more in line with a Great Old One (as described in stories such as Call of Cthulhu) than an Archetype/Other God. This feels directly contradictory to the description we're given in The Dunwich Horror, which pins him as being distinctly more abstract, even in comparison to the Old Ones described in said story.

  • "Yog-Sothoth knows the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the key and guardian of the gate. Past, present, future, all are one in Yog-Sothoth. He knows where the Old Ones broke through of old, and where They shall break through again. He knows where They have trod earth's fields, and where They still tread them, and why no one can behold Them as They tread." - The Dunwich Horror
Additionally, near the end of the same story, Armitage says the following:

  • "It has been split up into what it was originally made of, and can never exist again. It was an impossibility in a normal world. Only the least fraction was really matter in any sense we know. It was like its father—and most of it has gone back to him in some vague realm or dimension outside our material universe; some vague abyss out of which only the most accursed rites of human blasphemy could ever have called him for a moment on the hills." - The Dunwich Horror
Everything we're told in this story about "Yog-Sothoth" is just a lesser, incomplete description of the Supreme Archetype. But the purpose is much the same. The "key and guardian of the gate" line seems like a pretty direct reference to the fact that the being's manifestation, the Ancient Ones, guard the Ultimate Gate, while the Supreme Archetype is allied with the entirety of existence on every level, just as the quote says "Past present, future, all are one in Yog-Sothoth." There is no other "Yog-Sothoth" that fulfills these purposes in Lovecraft's writing; the quotes from The Dunwich Horror just refer to the Supreme Archetype and its manifestations, but fail to grasp the full scale of the entity.

  • "The Affair that shambleth about in the night, the Evil that defieth the Elder Sign, the Herd that stand watch at the secret portal each tomb is known to have, and that thrive on that which groweth out of the tenants within—all these Blacknesses are lesser than HE Who guardeth the Gateway; HE Who will guide the rash one beyond all the worlds into the Abyss of unnamable Devourers. For HE is'UMR AT-TAWIL, the Most Ancient One, which the scribe rendereth as THE PROLONGED OF LIFE." - Through the Gates of the Silver Key
  • "It was an All-in-One and One-in-All of limitless being and self—not merely a thing of one Space-Time continuum, but allied to the ultimate animating essence of existence's whole unbounded sweep—the last, utter sweep which has no confines and which outreaches fancy and mathematics alike." - Through the Gates of the Silver Key
As for the quote that refers to Yog-Sothoth as "only a congeries of iridescent globes", I would like to once more point out these quotes about the Ancient Ones, who are a manifestation of the Supreme Archetype.

  • "It was a large sphere or apparent sphere of some obscurely iridescent metal, and as the Guide put it forward a low, pervasive half-impression of sound began to rise and fall in intervals which seemed to be rhythmic even though they followed no rhythm of earth. There was a suggestion of chanting—or what human imagination might interpret as chanting. Presently the quasi-sphere began to grow luminous, and as it gleamed up into a cold, pulsating light of unassignable colour Carter saw that its flickerings conformed to the alien rhythm of the chant. Then all the mitred, sceptre-bearing Shapes on the pedestals commenced a slight, curious swaying in the same inexplicable rhythm, while nimbuses of unclassifiable light—resembling that of the quasi-sphere—played round their shrouded heads." - Through the Gates of the Silver Key
  • "Despite his intimations of body, he had no audible breath; and the glow of 'Umr at-Tawil's quasi-sphere had grown petrifiedly fixed and unpulsating. A potent nimbus, brighter than those which had played round the heads of the Shapes, blazed frozenly over the shrouded skull of the terrible Guide." - Through the Gates of the Silver Key
Carter then compares speaking to the Supreme Archetype as a more intense version of this experience.

  • "And now the BEING was addressing the Carter-facet in prodigious waves that smote and burned and thundered—a concentration of energy that blasted its recipient with well-nigh unendurable violence, and that followed, with certain definite variations, the singular unearthly rhythm which had marked the chanting and swaying of the Ancient Ones, and the flickering of the monstrous lights, in that baffling region beyond the First Gate." - Through the Gates of the Silver Key
Finally, I'd like to remind people that Carter believes that the ENTITY is the thing he's heard whispered of as Yog-Sothoth, and that is has had many other names, just that the conceptions limited beings have of it are all fractional and incomplete. He does not suggest these conceptions are all separate entities. The Ancient Ones, who are an actual manifestation of the thing, are not included in the list, and are later confirmed to be extensions of itself by the Supreme Archetype.

  • "It was perhaps that which certain secret cults of earth have whispered of as YOG-SOTHOTH, and which has been a deity under other names; that which the crustaceans of Yuggoth worship as the Beyond-One, and which the vaporous brains of the spiral nebulae know by an untranslatable Sign—yet in a flash the Carter-facet realised how slight and fractional all these conceptions are." - Through the Gates of the Silver Key
  • "MY manifestations on your planet's extension, the Ancient Ones, have sent you as one who would lately have returned to small lands of dream which he had lost, yet who with greater freedom has risen to greater and nobler desires and curiosities." - Through the Gates of the Silver Key


While I don't believe it is out of the question for someone to believe Yog-Sothoth is different from the Supreme Archetype due to the nature of the Mythos, I do not believe the text itself supports this. Two of the three quotes being used as evidence are just incomplete descriptions of the Ancient Ones and Supreme Archetype, while another does not even call the being "Yog-Sothoth", is vague, and contradicts even the fractional interpretation from The Dunwich Horror if taken at face value. We should likely treat Yog-Sothoth and the Supreme Archetype as the same, with the latter being the "more correct" title in-universe, while the former is the more widely known moniker.

I have more to say on the topic as a whole, but this comment was already getting too long.
 
Hi, so i'm not extremely knowledgable about Lovecraft (i know his work, i know the Outer Gods, Carter, Hypnos, etc) but if i may, i can confirm that the belief of Azathoth + awake = supreme game over isn't restricted to this wiki. Seriously, EVERY site speaking about Lovecraft, from this wiki, TV Tropes, Villains wiki, Wikipedia and even French websites (i'm french, that's why i'm mentionning it) outright speak about it (Azzy) this way. So no, this idea wasn't spreaded by people on this wiki, it existed before that. And before someone (like KingPin0422) come here to tell me that that's no proof (or tell me to not talk about something i don't have enough knowledge about or that i'm too used to the "tradition fallacy"or anything else), i know this isn't proof, i'm just saying this idea of Azzy being the supreme being in the Mythos doesn't come from here and is (in general) known as a statement by everyone taking interest in Lovecraft's work.

Aside from that, this discussion is very interesting and while this would be a drastic change on the wiki, i'm not against the idea of Azathoth not being the top individual anymore.

Note : Sorry if someone thinks i'm being rude in my comment.
 
I'm pretty sure that most of the wiki decicated to Chtulhu Mythos itself doesn't mention such a domination outside of the Extended Mythos (from what I saw), altough the sites not dedicated to the series itself does think the same thing of "Azatoth is the top".
 
I always thought that the descriptions of Azathoth made it obvious that it's supposed to be at the top. Sure, Yog-Sothoth is everything, but Azathoth is the dreamer of everything.
 
I think the point is Supreme Archetype >>>>>>>>>> Azzy >>>>>>> Yog

Not

Yog = Supreme Archetype >>> Azzy

The OP does seem to imply the former but we later discussed and concluded that it's not the case, so the 2nd premise is the one being discussed
 
But whenever people like me talk about Yog we mean the Supreme Archetype. The description of Yog-Sothoth in The Dunwich Horror is clearly reffering to the BEING or IT from Beyond The Games of the Silver Key. That's my point.
 
Azathoth being the dreamer of everything really only comes from Fungi from Yuggoth. Which is a poem so it already is much more flowery than even all of Lovecraft's other works to keep in meter, but what "dreams of existence" means is so vague and mulit-interpretive it still is hard to use. We don't know what Lovecraft meant because the prosaic version of Fungi From Yuggoth, The Book, never got to that point because Lovecraft scrapped the story.
 
Under the new interpretation of the mythos with Yog as the supreme being, what is the alternative explanation for the Outer Gods playing music to keep Azathoth asleep? Why are they doing it if not to maintain existence?
 
Are you sure? It has been mentioned numerous times that they do.

"They danced insanely to the high, thin whining

Of a cracked flute clutched in a monstrous paw"

XXII. Azathoth

"He must meet the Black Man, and go with them all to the throne of Azathoth at the centre of ultimate Chaos. That was what she said. He must sign in his own blood the book of Azathoth and take a new secret name now that his independent delvings had gone so far. What kept him from going with her and Brown Jenkin and the other to the throne of Chaos where the thin flutes pipe mindlessly was the fact that he had seen the name 'Azathoth' in the Necronomicon, and knew it stood for a primal evil too horrible for description."

The Dreams in the Witch House

"Before his eyes a kaleidoscopic range of phantasmal images played, all of them dissolving at intervals into the picture of a vast, unplumbed abyss of night wherein whirled suns and worlds of an even profounder blackness. He thought of the ancient legends of Ultimate Chaos, at whose centre sprawls the blind idiot god Azathoth, Lord of All Things, encircled by his flopping horde of mindless and amorphous dancers, and lulled by the thin monotonous piping of a daemoniac flute held in nameless paws."

The Haunter of the Dark
 
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