Cthulhu Mythos Downgrade

[Ultima_Reality]

****.

 

[Ovy7]

Can I get some some too, or is this only for spectators?

You are now a player, so no popcorn for you.

 

[SarieRuu]

Interesting

 

[Shyouu]

Proceeds to take some popcorns

 

[Tago238]

I agree because DarkSmash is my boy (I haven't read the thread). I do remember the cross scaling between the gates, dimensions and gates in the original thread being quirky though.

 

[Rez]

I agree because DarkSmash is my boy (I haven't read the thread). I do remember the cross scaling between the gates, dimensions and gates in the original thread being quirky though.

I do suggest you to read ultima's response

 

[Pepsiman25th]

twin peaks if cm gets downgraded

 

[Stocking.exe]

twin peaks if cm gets downgraded

Perhaps TP will follow CM

 

[Pepsiman25th]

Perhaps TP will follow CM

my doomsday prediction could come true and TES guys will be the only tier 0s

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I do suggest you to read ultima's response

Tago is obviously joking in that comment, given he said that he didn't read the thread.

Also, something I forgot to address:

Since “gates” is unlikely to refer to anything else, this is likely referring to the gates of the silver key, and explicitly being called “dimensional” and said to lead to higher dimensions.

In the case of this particular story, "gates" seems to be utilized as a generic word describing a portal to higher-dimensional spaces, given that, in Through the Gates of the Silver Key, the First Gate is explicitly noted to be singular and only capable of being accessed through artifacts such as the Silver Key itself. The story, as you can probably gather by the fact that the Gate located on Earth led to a transcendental extension of the planet, also implies that it has one version for each world in the universe as well.

Meanwhile, in Dreams of the Witch House, the "dimensional gates" in question refer to invisible lines that lead to axes of space that three-dimensional beings cannot perceive, which are implied to exist in multitudes and to be orthogonal to the universe as a whole. For example, Gilman finds one such gate in the form of an oddly-slanted ceiling in the house of diseased witch, and it's prolonged contact with this bizarre angle that causes him to have dreams of higher-dimensional spaces:

As time wore along, his absorption in the irregular wall and ceiling of his room increased; for he began to read into the odd angles a mathematical significance which seemed to offer vague clues regarding their purpose. Old Keziah, he reflected, might have had excellent reasons for living in a room with peculiar angles; for was it not through certain angles that she claimed to have gone outside the boundaries of the world of space we know? His interest gradually veered away from the unplumbed voids beyond the slanting surfaces, since it now appeared that the purpose of those surfaces concerned the side he was already on.
The touch of brain-fever and the dreams began early in February. For some time, apparently, the curious angles of Gilman’s room had been having a strange, almost hypnotic effect on him; and as the bleak winter advanced he had found himself staring more and more intently at the corner where the down-slanting ceiling met the inward-slanting wall. About this period his inability to concentrate on his formal studies worried him considerably, his apprehensions about the mid-year examinations being very acute. But the exaggerated sense of hearing was scarcely less annoying. Life had become an insistent and almost unendurable cacophony, and there was that constant, terrifying impression of other sounds—perhaps from regions beyond life—trembling on the very brink of audibility. So far as concrete noises went, the rats in the ancient partitions were the worst. Sometimes their scratching seemed not only furtive but deliberate. When it came from beyond the slanting north wall it was mixed with a sort of dry rattling—and when it came from the century-closed loft above the slanting ceiling Gilman always braced himself as if expecting some horror which only bided its time before descending to engulf him utterly.
The dreams were wholly beyond the pale of sanity, and Gilman felt that they must be a result, jointly, of his studies in mathematics and in folklore. He had been thinking too much about the vague regions which his formulae told him must lie beyond the three dimensions we know, and about the possibility that old Keziah Mason—guided by some influence past all conjecture—had actually found the gate to those regions. The yellowed county records containing her testimony and that of her accusers were so damnably suggestive of things beyond human experience—and the descriptions of the darting little furry object which served as her familiar were so painfully realistic despite their incredible details.

In fact, as seen above, he eventually concludes that it is possible to travel to any point of three-dimensional space by stepping into the fourth dimension and back into the regular universe at some desired coordinate, and the story makes it clear that this process was something witches themselves practiced.

What made the students shake their heads was his sober theory that a man might—given mathematical knowledge admittedly beyond all likelihood of human acquirement—step deliberately from the earth to any other celestial body which might lie at one of an infinity of specific points in the cosmic pattern.
Such a step, he said, would require only two stages; first, a passage out of the three-dimensional sphere we know, and second, a passage back to the three-dimensional sphere at another point, perhaps one of infinite remoteness. That this could be accomplished without loss of life was in many cases conceivable. Any being from any part of three-dimensional space could probably survive in the fourth dimension; and its survival of the second stage would depend upon what alien part of three-dimensional space it might select for its re-entry. Denizens of some planets might be able to live on certain others—even planets belonging to other galaxies, or to similar-dimensional phases of other space-time continua—though of course there must be vast numbers of mutually uninhabitable even though mathematically juxtaposed bodies or zones of space.

The next day both youths felt very tired, and knew they would sleep like logs when night came. In the evening they drowsily discussed the mathematical studies which had so completely and perhaps harmfully engrossed Gilman, and speculated about the linkage with ancient magic and folklore which seemed so darkly probable. They spoke of old Keziah Mason, and Elwood agreed that Gilman had good scientific grounds for thinking she might have stumbled on strange and significant information. The hidden cults to which these witches belonged often guarded and handed down surprising secrets from elder, forgotten aeons; and it was by no means impossible that Keziah had actually mastered the art of passing through dimensional gates. Tradition emphasises the uselessness of material barriers in halting a witch’s motions; and who can say what underlies the old tales of broomstick rides through the night?

This, of course, relies on those higher-dimensional planes having a defined sense of position that is perfectly matched across all of them and allows one to accurately use them to travel across great distances, which is only natural, since dimensions themselves are just coordinates needed to specify a position in space. Said conception of fixed position and form, in turn, simply doesn't exist past the First Gate, and Carter himself can only discern hints of those in the Outer Extension, and even them are still only his mind attempting to contextualize the nature of the place into something semi-coherent.

There floated before Carter a cloudy pageantry of shapes and scenes which he somehow linked with earth’s primal, aeon-forgotten past. Monstrous living things moved deliberately through vistas of fantastic handiwork that no sane dream ever held, and landscapes bore incredible vegetation and cliffs and mountains and masonry of no human pattern. There were cities under the sea, and denizens thereof; and towers in great deserts where globes and cylinders and nameless winged entities shot off into space or hurtled down out of space. All this Carter grasped, though the images bore no fixed relation to one another or to him. He himself had no stable form or position, but only such shifting hints of form and position as his whirling fancy supplied.

 

[Grand_Saver_Ritsuka]

Basically what Ima do now. take some if ya'll want some.

gimme. Me sitting back and watching be like"

Sorry ultima, lol, the popcorn is only in the spectator's seat and that is only for spectators.

 

[AKUTO123]

I haven't read cthulhu so I can't be definitive, but some of the quotes I've read have been mentioned and written close to my thoughts, so I tend to agree.

 

[Shyouu]

I'm leaning to agree with Ultima's points

 

[Antvasima]

@Ultima_Reality

What do you think that we should do here?

 

[Darksmash]

@Ultima

I don't see how. What happened to Carter was simply a revelation of the fundamental nature of reality to him, which happened to include a descent through this infinite chain of dimensions, all the way down to the world of humans.

This descent however never once mentioned the existence of any structure being superior to all the infinite dimensions themselves. I imagine if such realms were meant to exist lovecraft would be a bit more explicit about it.

“In fact, the infinity of dimensions described in Through the Gates is described as a "small wholeness" contained within the boundaries of the First Gate, seeing as the 3-dimensional world of man is called an "infinitesimal phase" of it:”

I don’t see how that shows the small wholeness contains infinite dimensions. My interpretation is that the small wholeness represents a single space time continuum, and obviously it would contain the 3 dimensional perspective of the world of men as an infinitesimal “phase” of itself. I don’t see how this implies infinite higher dimensions. We have a lot of counter context anyway with all the quotes that call it dimensioned.

Given how Phillips seems to talk about this state of affairs as something which Carter ultimately ended up as and which he can eventually return from, that seems far more likely to be what he's referring to. Especially since returning from the Ultimate Abyss at all is treated as an impossibility in the context of the verse, and something which only one person (Kuranes, ruler of Celephais) ever managed to do, through unknown means. And that, to reiterate, Carter's journey throughout the abyss was the midpoint of his journey, and not the current state of affairs at the time of the story. The whole thing is even narrated by him while in Zkauba's body, too:

Yes, but Carter(as the narrator) calling said view “Incomplete” in context does imply it’s accurate upto a certain phase of his journey. Namely the part which involved going outside time as a whole(Since that’s what they were speculating about) and is basically what happened when Carter went beyond the first gate(going “outside” time). It was kind of just a supporting scan anyway, in addition to the other quotes which call it dimensional.

That's a bit out of context, since those geometric shapes are very explicitly simply Carter's mind trying to make sense of the transcendental reality around him using symbols and impressions. So, it's not the literal "form" of the place:

Yes, it’s his brain translating whatever it can of the higher dimensional reality it was existing in. The stimulus is still provided by said reality however.

“Memory and imagination shaped dim half-pictures with uncertain outlines amidst the seething chaos, but Carter knew that they were of memory and imagination only. Yet he felt that it was not chance which built these things in his consciousness, but rather some vast reality, ineffable and undimensioned, which surrounded him and strove to translate itself into the only symbols he was capable of grasping. For no mind of earth may grasp the extensions of shape which interweave in the oblique gulfs outside time and the dimensions we know.”

Due to still possessing earthly eyes, his brain isn’t meant to translate visual signals in a higher dimension. Even the last line supports this point when it talks about extensions of shapes outside the dimensions we know. After this he proceeds to observe scenes which his brain interprets as images of the earth’s past. Which makes sense with him viewing the things from outside the space time continuum. And again, we have to take into account the sheer number of times it has been called dimensioned.

The "twilight abysses" described in that story are certainly not equatable to the realms beyond the First Gate, no, given that, in the same story, Gilman deduces that those higher-dimensional planes could be a part of a single universe, too, something which the narration notes after the whole ordeal where he experiences those planes by himself (And he also uses the term "phases," which is the same one that Through the Gates utilizes), as you can likely confirm by yourself (I'd also like you to hold onto that thought, by the way, since it'll eventually lead into an issue I have with the way we currently lay out the cosmology):

Fair argument, but all it introduces is the issue that the space time continuum contains an unknown number of higher dimensions. The vague nature of geometries, directions and shapes shouldn’t change into something else entirely if they go beyond just some more higher dimensions. “Phase” in general just refers to a cross section/intersection of something in context of the verse. It’s usage shouldn’t be generalised. It might refer to different dimensional phases cut from the archetypes, or a dimensional phase cut from some higher dimension, or even just various descendants and local beings cut off from some corresponding archetype, for example:

“Each local being—son, father, grandfather, and so on—and each stage of individual being—infant, child, boy, young man, old man—is merely one of the infinite phases of that same archetypal and eternal being, caused by a variation in the angle of the consciousness-plane which cuts it. Randolph Carter at all ages; Randolph Carter and all his ancestors both human and pre-human, terrestrial and pre-terrestrial; all these were only phases of one ultimate, eternal “Carter” outside space and time—phantom projections differentiated only by the angle at which the plane of consciousness happened to cut the eternal archetype in each case.”

The gates are also unlikely to refer to anything else, since as you just pointed out it’s using terminology similar to Through the gates of the silver key. It's just possible that the Gate in the silver key lead to the outside of the space time continuum itself, while the Gates in this story didn't. We just have to come up with some consistent interpretation for this, which doesn’t need to involve taking the highest possible and very unlikely interpretations.

In fact, higher-dimensional spaces are often said to capable of being expressed as features of parallel universes. For instance, Carter muses that, with the slightest change to his plane of consciousness, he could become a 4-dimensional being in "an older spacetime continuum."

That instance came after Carter lost his individuality after going past the Ultimate Gate. After crossing the first gate he only became a composite of all his instances throughout time. Also “older” space time continuum can technically indicate some kind of superiority, since you wouldn’t use “older” when you are talking about things without a frame of reference for time, but I digress. As was discussed above, it’s already known that a single space time contains an unknown amount of higher dimensions. So that is fairly possible.

“That isn't really the only quote stating the existence of undimensioned planes in the cosmology, no. For instance, you have this excerpt, which states that Carter wished to journey through the "gulfs where all dimensions dissolve into the absolute."”
“And although this can admitedly be interpreted as referring to the Ultimate Void, the Outer Extension past the First Gate is already stated to carry some of the revelation that Carter went through after crossing the final barrier into the world of archetypes, and Umr at-Tawil's magic was the only thing keeping him together. So, the realms just past the First Gate do partake in this "absolute" to some extent too:”

As you said it can be interpreted as the Ultimate Gate(or rather the “genuine” version of the Ultimate Void). The Outer Extension obviously contains some part of the revelation because it is the starting point where he starts realising the reality of the unreal and unreality of what was previously thought as real.
You might say these realms don’t refer to the Ultimate Void because of how they are called “Gulfs” in the plural, but this isn’t the first time they used plural for the Ultimate Void. For example, in “The Whisperer in Darkness” the alien race from Yuggoth was said to have come from the “Ultimate Voids”:

““There are mighty cities on Yuggoth—great tiers of terraced towers built of black stone like the specimen I tried to send you. That came from Yuggoth. The sun shines there no brighter than a star, but the beings need no light. They have other, subtler senses, and put no windows in their great houses and temples. Light even hurts and hampers and confuses them, for it does not exist at all in the black cosmos outside time and space where they came from originally. To visit Yuggoth would drive any weak man mad—yet I am going there. The black rivers of pitch that flow under those mysterious Cyclopean bridges—things built by some elder race extinct and forgotten before the things came to Yuggoth from the ultimate voids—ought to be enough to make any man a Dante or Poe if he can keep sane long enough to tell what he has seen.

Furthermore, calling it "undimensioned" in spite of it being a higher-dimensional construct isn't really something that can be properly explained, seeing as higher-dimensional objects do still extend into the directions of space in which lower ones exist. A tesseract still has length, width and height, and so calling it an undimensioned object is incorrect in every sense of the word, for instance.

I understand, but this is just a situation where we have to come up with an explanation. The quotes calling it dimensioned cannot be just ignored. And I think the explanation I gave makes the most sense in context, with lovecraft utilising “undimensioned” to express a relatively larger degree of freedom.

“Memory and imagination shaped dim half-pictures with uncertain outlines amidst the seething chaos, but Carter knew that they were of memory and imagination only. Yet he felt that it was not chance which built these things in his consciousness, but rather some vast reality, ineffable and undimensioned, which surrounded him and strove to translate itself into the only symbols he was capable of grasping. For no mind of earth may grasp the extensions of shape which interweave in the oblique gulfs outside time and the dimensions we know.”

It’s even supported by the last line, that lovecraft was using the description for gulfs outside the dimensions known to the waking world.

I wouldn't say this is a hard cap on his knowledge regarding higher-dimensional spaces, though. Given that it's very clearly referring to him actually unravelling the exact equations behind the functionings of the fourth dimension of the universe, which is quite different from simply mathematically defining some arbitrary n-dimensional space, the latter of which is far simpler. As I showed above, Gilman even starts to study the existence of an indefinitely-multiplied number of spatial dimensions that can exist within a single continuum, so, saying his knowledge is limited to that is pretty out of the left field.

Fair, but it does suggest that lovecraft uses the notion of bounds of mathematics a bit liberally. And I would say a jump to an infinite dimensional space can be large enough to warrant a statement like ‘beyond all mathematics” by lovecraft, which we would only rate as High 1-B(for the Ultimate Void(s)), with the archetypes still only reaching Low 1-A/1-A.

“In the case of this particular story, "gates" seems to be utilized as a generic word describing a portal to higher-dimensional spaces, given that, in Through the Gates of the Silver Key, the First Gate is explicitly noted to be singular and only capable of being accessed through artifacts such as the Silver Key itself. The story, as you can probably gather by the fact that the Gate located on Earth led to a transcendental extension of the planet, also implies that it has one version for each world in the universe as well.

Meanwhile, in Dreams of the Witch House, the "dimensional gates" in question refer to invisible lines that lead to axes of space that three-dimensional beings cannot perceive, which are implied to exist in multitudes and to be orthogonal to the universe as a whole. For example, Gilman finds one such gate in the form of an oddly-slanted ceiling in the house of diseased witch, and it's prolonged contact with this bizarre angle that causes him to have dreams of higher-dimensional spaces:”

This can once again, be fixed just by saying that the silver key unlocks that Gate which leads outside the space time continuum itself, while the Gates which the witches go through only lead to the higher dimensions within the continuum. Besides we shouldn’t assume the silver key is the only thing leading to these higher dimensions outside the space time continuum, given that multiple lovecraft stories literally include direct involvement of these higher dimensions and even the Ultimate Void. Like that’s where the Alien Race from Yuggoth in the whisperer in darkness came from, so I would assume their tech is good enough to traverse these locations without the need of any artifact.

“This, of course, relies on those higher-dimensional planes having a defined sense of position that is perfectly matched across all of them and allows one to accurately use them to travel across great distances, which is only natural, since dimensions themselves are just coordinates needed to specify a position in space. Said conception of fixed position and form, in turn, simply doesn't exist past the First Gate, and Carter himself can only discern hints of those in the Outer Extension, and even them are still only his mind attempting to contextualize the nature of the place into something semi-coherent.”

As I previously explained, those “hints” were still generated by the stimulus provided by the reality. It was just because he still possessed an earthly mind and earthly eyes. As I also said before, with the amount of context we also had within the same story of the outer extension being called dimensioned, our focus should instead be on explaining the weird shenanigans in a consistent way.

 

[Antvasima]

@Elizhaa @Planck69 @Saikou_The_Lewd_King @Roachman40 @Udlmaster @The_God_Of_Procrastination @Edenstar @Xulrev

Your input would also be appreciated here.

 

[Saiyan40009]

Not like we can proceed any further anyway since actual staff input will be necessary for that

 

[thetechmaster36]

Your input would also be appreciated here.

I think you should also call KingPin here, KingPin was one of the people who worked on the previous batch of Cthulhu CRTs.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

I don’t see how that shows the small wholeness contains infinite dimensions. My interpretation is that the small wholeness represents a single space time continuum, and obviously it would contain the 3 dimensional perspective of the world of men as an infinitesimal “phase” of itself. I don’t see how this implies infinite higher dimensions. We have a lot of counter context anyway with all the quotes that call it dimensioned.

Yeah it's your interpretation, and we're trying to correct it

Please correct me if I misunderstand anything.

You said it yourself.

Let's go back to the main point

The "Three Dimensional Small Wholeness" is reffering to how small the infinite higher dimension compared to the First Gate, to the point it's only Three Dimensional

Then the waves increased in strength, and sought to improve his understanding, reconciling him to the multiform entity of which his present fragment was an infinitesimal part. They told him that every figure of space is but the result of the intersection by a plane of some corresponding figure of one more dimension—as a square is cut from a cube or a circle from a sphere. The cube and sphere, of three dimensions, are thus cut from corresponding forms of four dimensions that men know only through guesses and dreams; and these in turn are cut from forms of five dimensions, and so on up to the dizzy and reachless heights of archetypal infinity. The world of men and of the gods of men is merely an infinitesimal phase of an infinitesimal thing—the three-dimensional phase of that small wholeness reached by the First Gate

within the same story of the outer extension being called dimensioned

I'm pretty sure that them being called a dimension doesn't mean they're not Outerversal, it's just another word of saying it's another place.

Correct me if im wrong tho.

 

[Planck69]

I find myself agreeing with Ultima more but I'll wait for more input until I commit myself to a certain side.

 

[MrKerf]

This is... very interesting. Following, neutral.

Hey, Ultima, have some popcorn.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

This descent however never once mentioned the existence of any structure being superior to all the infinite dimensions themselves. I imagine if such realms were meant to exist lovecraft would be a bit more explicit about it.

We can find that in other stories, however, even outside of what I outlined about the Outer Extension. For instance, the versions of the Ultimate Gods that you also seem to accept as being differentiated from the Archetypes are described as residing "past the bright clusters of dimensioned space," which does point towards the Archetypal existences at the top of cosmology not being the only ones to reside outside of them entirely:

Out in the mindless void the daemon bore me,
Past the bright clusters of dimensioned space,
Till neither time nor matter stretched before me,
But only Chaos, without form or place.
Here the vast Lord of All in darkness muttered
Things he had dreamed but could not understand,
While near him shapeless bat-things flopped and fluttered
In idiot vortices that ray-streams fanned.

They danced insanely to the high, thin whining
Of a cracked flute clutched in a monstrous paw,
Whence flow the aimless waves whose chance combining
Gives each frail cosmos its eternal law.
“I am His Messenger,” the daemon said,
As in contempt he struck his Master’s head.

Not to mention another sonnet of Fungi from Yuggoth mentioning a plurality of "undimensioned worlds," as well, which the Silver Key is capable of accessing.

I do not know what windings in the waste
Of those strange sea-lanes brought me home once more,
But on my porch I trembled, white with haste
To get inside and bolt the heavy door.
I had the book that told the hidden way
Across the void and through the space-hung screens
That hold the undimensioned worlds at bay,
And keep lost aeons to their own demesnes.

At last the key was mine to those vague visions
Of sunset spires and twilight woods that brood
Dim in the gulfs beyond this earth’s precisions,
Lurking as memories of infinitude.
The key was mine, but as I sat there mumbling,
The attic window shook with a faint fumbling.

Yes, but Carter(as the narrator) calling said view “Incomplete” in context does imply it’s accurate upto a certain phase of his journey. Namely the part which involved going outside time as a whole(Since that’s what they were speculating about) and is basically what happened when Carter went beyond the first gate(going “outside” time).

That's, again, irrelevant, since Ward Phillips was referring to the current state of affairs which Carter found himself in, which we know was not directly related to the realms beyond the Gates. I am aware it's supporting evidence, but it's extremely flimsy and blatantly misses context as well.

The gates are also unlikely to refer to anything else, since as you just pointed out it’s using terminology similar to Through the gates of the silver key. It's just possible that the Gate in the silver key lead to the outside of the space time continuum itself, while the Gates in this story didn't. We just have to come up with some consistent interpretation for this, which doesn’t need to involve taking the highest possible and very unlikely interpretations.

This can once again, be fixed just by saying that the silver key unlocks that Gate which leads outside the space time continuum itself, while the Gates which the witches go through only lead to the higher dimensions within the continuum.

This is very likely the case, in my opinion. Given that the First Gate as depicted in Through the Gates of the Silver Key is very specifically meant to be a passageway into the Outer Extension in specific, and to no other place (Much like the Ultimate Gate is a barrier beyond which lies the Ultimate Void), unless you can point me to some pasage which suggests as much. As seen above, the Gates themselves are even referred to as "the space-hung screens which hold the undimensioned worlds at bay," and the story likewise describes them as standing between the world and the absolute that lays outside.

Not to mention that the Outer Extension residing outside of space and time would already contradict the function of the "dimensional gate" shown in Dreams of the Witch-House, which very explicitly leads to a 4-dimensional space that nonetheless still resides within the spacetime continuum. So, again, those two things are clearly not the same, and the usage of a word as vague and general as "gates" doesn't hold up to all of that. Saying "Well, maybe these gates just so happen to lead to other locations" is just an assumption, and an extremely ill-founded one.

That instance came after Carter lost his individuality after going past the Ultimate Gate. After crossing the first gate he only became a composite of all his instances throughout time. Also “older” space time continuum can technically indicate some kind of superiority, since you wouldn’t use “older” when you are talking about things without a frame of reference for time, but I digress. As was discussed above, it’s already known that a single space time contains an unknown amount of higher dimensions. So that is fairly possible.

That is unrelated to my point. I am arguing that the text showcases that dimensions themselves are properties of a spacetime continuum, and therefore still bound to single realities, instead of extending throughout the entirety of the cosmology as you suggest they do.

Yes, it’s his brain translating whatever it can of the higher dimensional reality it was existing in. The stimulus is still provided by said reality however.

Yes, but the perception does not necessarily have to bear any corelation to what the reality itself would be experienced as, especially since, again, the text heavily emphasizes that what Carter sees is only memory and imagination, and even describes his fancy as "whirling" while trying to process the reality around him. These symbols do not actually say anything about the fundamental nature of the realm itself, and are themselves just are intuitive and abstract impressions rather than literal representations, hence why the structures in the Outer Extension are described as related to Earth's forgotten past.

As I previously explained, those “hints” were still generated by the stimulus provided by the reality. It was just because he still possessed an earthly mind and earthly eyes. As I also said before, with the amount of context we also had within the same story of the outer extension being called dimensioned, our focus should instead be on explaining the weird shenanigans in a consistent way.

Yes, and, again, why would we assume those hints would bear any relation to the actual nature of the Outer Extension? There being no form or position beyond what Carter's mind can put into a somewhat coherent picture would already contradict all of those statements, since, as I said, a dimension is just a coordinate specifying a defined position in space.

I understand, but this is just a situation where we have to come up with an explanation. The quotes calling it dimensioned cannot be just ignored. And I think the explanation I gave makes the most sense in context, with lovecraft utilising “undimensioned” to express a relatively larger degree of freedom.

That's just assigning a completely alternate meaning to the word that doesn't at all relate to what it means in the first place. The bulk of the quotes which you associate to the Outer Extension refer to something else entirely (In the case of Dreams of the Witch-House, the fourth dimension, which you seemed to accept as something different from the Extension up there), and the others are already contradicted by a comparatively more detailed description of the realm. So I would say we can safely ignore them, yes.

 

[Antvasima]

I think you should also call KingPin here, KingPin was one of the people who worked on the previous batch of Cthulhu CRTs.

@KingPin0422

 

[KingPin0422]

I'm sure both sides are aware of this already, but in The Dreams in the Witch House, it is stated that there are indefinitely many dimensions both within and outside a single space-time continuum:

It was also possible that the inhabitants of a given dimensional realm could survive entry to many unknown and incomprehensible realms of additional or indefinitely multiplied dimensions—be they within or outside the given space-time continuum—and that the converse would be likewise true.

And we know that the latter is referring to the dimensions of other space-time continua because of what comes immediately before:

Any being from any part of three-dimensional space could probably survive in the fourth dimension; and its survival of the second stage would depend upon what alien part of three-dimensional space it might select for its re-entry. Denizens of some planets might be able to live on certain others—even planets belonging to other galaxies, or to similar-dimensional phases of other space-time continua—though of course there must be vast numbers of mutually uninhabitable even though mathematically juxtaposed bodies or zones of space.

Meanwhile, in Hypnos, the narrator explicitly references a deeper universe existing beyond space and time, which I think is important to note when "space and time" has been noted to span indefinitely many dimensions, as stated before:

Of our studies it is impossible to speak, since they held so slight a connexion with anything of the world as living men conceive it. They were of that vaster and more appalling universe of dim entity and consciousness which lies deeper than matter, time, and space, and whose existence we suspect only in certain forms of sleep—those rare dreams beyond dreams which come never to common men, and but once or twice in the lifetime of imaginative men.

Said universe is also stated to be what gave birth to the cosmos of space and time to begin with:

The cosmos of our waking knowledge, born from such an universe as a bubble is born from the pipe of a jester, touches it only as such a bubble may touch its sardonic source when sucked back by the jester’s whim.

Now, you might say that it's only referring to humanity's three-dimensional plane of existence because of the specification of "The cosmos of our waking knowledge," as well as based on this quote:

Among the agonies of these after days is that chief of torments—inarticulateness. What I learned and saw in those hours of impious exploration can never be told—for want of symbols or suggestions in any language. I say this because from first to last our discoveries partook only of the nature of sensations; sensations correlated with no impression which the nervous system of normal humanity is capable of receiving. They were sensations, yet within them lay unbelievable elements of time and space—things which at bottom possess no distinct and definite existence.

However, immediately after saying this, the narrator characterizes his experiences with two completely antonymous words:

Human utterance can best convey the general character of our experiences by calling them plungings or soarings; for in every period of revelation some part of our minds broke boldly away from all that is real and present, rushing aërially along shocking, unlighted, and fear-haunted abysses, and occasionally tearing through certain well-marked and typical obstacles describable only as viscous, uncouth clouds or vapours.

And they then go on to state that time had become nothing more than an illusion to them during their cosmic voyage, even citing their observation that neither they nor their friend age at any rate as evidence:

Of the progress of time we kept no record, for time had become to us the merest illusion. I know only that there must have been something very singular involved, since we came at length to marvel why we did not grow old.

I could go on, but I think what I just presented here should be enough to show that space and time are trivialized long before reaching the domain of the Archetypes.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

I think KingPin is already here

 

[Panpanpanjeidj]

I don't know why the ultimate mystery is so much superior to the infinity layer of High 1-A.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

I don't know why the ultimate mystery is so much superior to the infinity layer of High 1-A.

You can ask about it on the QnA thread, this is currently not the place for it.

 

[Vietthai96]

Following, while i don't care about Cthulhu Mythos, the debate on cosmology is really an interesting premise

 

[Braking]

following this aint gonna be good

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Guys, you can just press the following button without needing to type in following.

 

[ShivaShakti]

Yeah i'm gonna disagree with this for Ultima and Kingpin's reasonings.

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

Agreed with Ultima and Kingpin's points.

 

[Planck69]

After going through this more, I agree with Ultima and KingPin's reasoning.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

I also think Ultima and Kingpin make more sense.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Following

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Y'all really just ignored my reasoning

 

[ShivaShakti]

Y'all really just ignored my reasoning

Sorry about that my guy, I prolly didn't see it and I just woke up too lmao

 

[Darksmash]

“We can find that in other stories, however, even outside of what I outlined about the Outer Extension. For instance, the versions of the Ultimate Gods that you also seem to accept as being differentiated from the Archetypes are described as residing "past the bright clusters of dimensioned space," which does point towards the Archetypal existences at the top of cosmology not being the only ones to reside outside of them entirely:”

This wouldn’t exactly make sense with the context in TTGOTSK, where only the archetypes are stated to reside outside dimensions, and their fragmentary avatars only existing to view the “cosmos” from different angles, participating in change(Which I also highlighted in the OP). And the region beyond the Ultimate Gate which Carter went to was explicitly called dimensioned anyway, so this just means here the “Ultimate Gods” are likely referring to the Archetypes themselves. Or we may have another problem of lovecraft using weird relative language.

“Not to mention another sonnet of Fungi from Yuggoth mentioning a plurality of "undimensioned worlds," as well, which the Silver Key is capable of accessing.”

I mean the context from TTGOTSK is already enough to deny this notion, with lovecraft using “undimensioned” and “dimensioned” for the same thing. If anything, this just means that any instance of something being called “undimensioned” in lovecraft should be evaluated based on context.

“That's, again, irrelevant, since Ward Phillips was referring to the current state of affairs which Carter found himself in, which we know was not directly related to the realms beyond the Gates. I am aware it's supporting evidence, but it's extremely flimsy and blatantly misses context as well.”

Hmm, reading that part again the context does indeed seem to be different from what I had initially understood it as. Well, I apologise for that. But we still have more quotes of it being called dimensioned which don’t exactly have a context issue.

“And then, suddenly, he felt a greater terror than that which any of the Forms could give—a terror from which he could not flee because it was connected with himself. Even the First Gateway had taken something of stability from him, leaving him uncertain about his bodily form and about his relationship to the mistily defined objects around him, but it had not disturbed his sense of unity. He had still been Randolph Carter, a fixed point in the dimensional seething. Now, beyond the Ultimate Gateway, he realised in a moment of consuming fright that he was not one person, but many persons.”

“For the first time Carter realized how terrific utter silence, mental and physical, may be. The earlier moments had never failed to contain some perceptible rhythm, if only the faint, cryptical pulse of the Earth's dimensional extension, but now the hush of the abyss seemed to fall upon everything.”

Btw last quote also implies the Outer extension is “physical”

And of course, there is also the trans dimensional quote, transdimensional literally being a synonym of higher dimensional stuff.

“This is very likely the case, in my opinion. Given that the First Gate as depicted in Through the Gates of the Silver Key is very specifically meant to be a passageway into the Outer Extension in specific, and to no other place (Much like the Ultimate Gate is a barrier beyond which lies the Ultimate Void), unless you can point me to some pasage which suggests as much. As seen above, the Gates themselves are even referred to as "the space-hung screens which hold the undimensioned worlds at bay," and the story likewise describes them as standing between the world and the absolute that lays outside.”

Well that makes sense, but doesn’t really disagree with what i said.

“Not to mention that the Outer Extension residing outside of space and time would already contradict the function of the "dimensional gate" shown in Dreams of the Witch-House, which very explicitly leads to a 4-dimensional space that nonetheless still resides within the spacetime continuum. So, again, those two things are clearly not the same, and the usage of a word as vague and general as "gates" doesn't hold up to all of that. Saying "Well, maybe these gates just so happen to lead to other locations" is just an assumption, and an extremely ill-founded one.”

It wasn’t really suggested that it only lead to 4 dimensional space. They were said to lead to regions beyond the 3 known dimensions, and the regions mentioned in the story go upto even the Ultimate Void. And I wouldn’t say usage of the word ‘Gate” is general at all. Higher existences are already a niche thing, and given it’s in the same verse, “Gates” leading to these higher existences are likely to have the same nature. The one in TTGOTSK can be different of course, since it leads outside the space time continuum itself. But it doesn’t need to have a different nature, since space time continuums are made up of dimensions too.

“That is unrelated to my point. I am arguing that the text showcases that dimensions themselves are properties of a spacetime continuum, and therefore still bound to single realities, instead of extending throughout the entirety of the cosmology as you suggest they do.”

...it doesn’t? How does multiple higher dimensions existing in a space time continuum mean that the space time continuum can hold any number of them? Space time itself is made up of dimensions. From how I see it, a single space time continuum in lovecraft consists of one time dimension and an unknown number of spatial dimensions.

“Yes, but the perception does not necessarily have to bear any corelation to what the reality itself would be experienced as, especially since, again, the text heavily emphasizes that what Carter sees is only memory and imagination, and even describes his fancy as "whirling" while trying to process the reality around him. These symbols do not actually say anything about the fundamental nature of the realm itself, especially since they are intuitive and abstract impressions rather than literal representations, hence why the structures in the Outer Extension are described as related to Earth's forgotten past.”

“Yes, and, again, why would we assume those hints would bear any relation to the actual nature of the Outer Extension? There being no form or position beyond what Carter's mind can put into a somewhat coherent picture would already contradict all of those statements, since, as I said, a dimension is just a coordinate specifying a defined position in space.”

We would assume that they correspond to the actual nature of the Outer Extension because:

“All at once the pageant of impressions seemed to achieve a vague kind of stabilisation. There were great masses of towering stone, carven into alien and incomprehensible designs and disposed according to the laws of some unknown, inverse geometry. Light filtered down from a sky of no assignable colour in baffling, contradictory directions, and played almost sentiently over what seemed to be a curved line of gigantic hieroglyphed pedestals more hexagonal than otherwise and surmounted by cloaked, ill-defined Shapes.”

Eventually when the impressions achieved a stabilization,

“The Guide did not share this sleep, but seemed still to be giving instructions in some subtle, soundless way. Evidently he was implanting images of those things which he wished the Companions to dream; and Carter knew that as each of the Ancient Ones pictured the prescribed thought, there would be born the nucleus of a manifestation visible to his own earthly eyes.”

He says that something would materialise in the Outer extension that would be visible to his own earthly eyes, which shows that the impressions he was forming of the Outer Extension were indeed generated by visual stimuli. And the descriptions were extremely specific to be something formed from an unrelated abstraction anyway. The structures were described like Earth’s forgotten past because, well he is viewing the world from outside the worldline. And honestly I don’t get why you think Carter being unable to provide accurate descriptions of the space would mean they aren’t dimensioned, because earthly eyes are not meant to observe higher dimensional locations. It would give all ****** up kinds of visions. One of those dimensions being a temporal one is just an icing on the cake.

“That's just assigning a completely alternate meaning to the word that doesn't at all relate to what it means in the first place. The bulk of the quotes which you associate to the Outer Extension refer to something else entirely (In the case of Dreams of the Witch-House, the fourth dimension, which you seemed to accept as something different from the Extension up there), and the others are already contradicted by a comparatively more detailed description of the realm. So I would say we can safely ignore them, yes.”

Treating usage of the word “undimensioned” as being anything different from a 0 dimensional point by default strays from the meaning of the word. And no, the quotes from TDITWH were just supporting evidence. There were still more quotes in the story itself explicitly referring to the Outer Extension. The detailed descriptions of the realms only contradict them being dimensioned if you take some very minor details and exaggerate them. We already seem them contain geometries, shapes, directions, colours and so on. All of which also exist in higher dimensions. And once again, earthly eyes are not meant to comprehend higher dimensional spaces, so I would expect no less a flowery description when trying to talk about them.

“I'm sure both sides are aware of this already, but in The Dreams in the Witch House, it is stated that there are indefinitely many dimensions both within and outside a single space-time continuum:”

I am aware, however that does not mean dimensions are bound to the space time continuums.

“Meanwhile, in Hypnos, the narrator explicitly references a deeper universe existing beyond space and time, which I think is important to note when "space and time" has been noted to span indefinitely many dimensions, as stated before:”

I can go ahead and say that since the Vacua work no different from the Gates, and the latter of which are called dimensioned and also make sense with the context, that indicates that the Vacua are dimensioned too. And for consistency of that interpretation I believe we already have an explanation that even you yourself acknowledged:

“Now, you might say that it's only referring to humanity's three-dimensional plane of existence because of the specification of "The cosmos of our waking knowledge," as well as based on this quote:”

However, Instead of the 3 dimensional world, it would instead be outside the space time continuum itself, which contains an unknown number of dimensions.

“However, immediately after saying this, the narrator characterizes his experiences with two completely antonymous words:”

I can’t understand what you are arguing here. Can you elaborate?

“And they then go on to state that time had become nothing more than an illusion to them during their cosmic voyage, even citing their observation that neither they nor their friend age at any rate as evidence:”

I think the context of that statement is clear in the argument itself, time became an illusion because they stopped aging. But I digress, the issue isn’t whether they went past space time or not. The issue is whether that would equate to being outside an infinite number of dimensions or not. Which based on what we have seen from the gates isn’t supported. I think we need more explicit evidence of these realms being beyond an infinite number of dimensions, which doesn’t appear anywhere to my knowledge.

 

[EliminatorVenom]

I like this discussion, it is very civil and revealing about the mythos' cosmology.

While I do agree that the CM needs some cleaning up on the justifications and pages, I tend to disagree with the OP, but I'll watch the discussion. I don't know enough about CM to give a good opinion.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

I'm of the same mind as Eliminator, anything 1-A or above is just convoluted pseudo-mathematical nonsense imo but overall let's continue to keep this discussion civil and respectful.

I do kinda agree that certain profiles definitely need a clean up tho (based on my normie level knowledge on H.Ps work).