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Cosmology rating and possible Conceptual Manipulation upgrade - Maou Gakuin

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Everything12 said:
I'm still of the opinion that the interpretation given above is not Type 2. As the whole a single Order, spread through all layers, is greater in Deeper layers and won't be affected by the destruction of its erasure in Shallow layers doesn't meet the requirements for Type 2.

However, theirs been so many interpretations of the Orders and how Shallow/Deeper Orders affect each other it's hard to get a clear grasp on what said here is correct or not. I believe that more scans and quotes are probably necessary at this point just to figure out what's true and whats headcanon.
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If there's a specific statement and you want to confirm whether it's true or not, you can ask me.
 
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Any quote from the Web Novel explaining if Orders encompass the entire Silver Sea or are just limited to a single World is probably the best place to start, as it seems to be the sticking point between both interpretations.
 
Everything12 said:
Any quote from the Web Novel explaining if Orders encompass the entire Silver Sea or are just limited to a single World is probably the best place to start, as it seems to be the sticking point between both interpretations.
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There aren't any statements that properly explain this...

I will try to give you an accurate explanation:

Order encompasses the entire Silver Sea.

"In accordance with the order of the Silver Sea, the magic power flows to the deep layer and the order exerts its power in the deep places." - WN Chapter 502

In this statement, they use "order" (singular) and say that order exerts its power in deeper layers. This means that a single order encompasses the entire Silver Sea, but while order in the first layer would be a "base type 3 concept", order in deeper layers would be uncountably greater.
I know this isn't very good evidence, but order encompassing the entire Silver Sea is further supported by the fact that there hasn't been any "alike orders" in the story yet.

The main argument for order being limited to a single world has also been disproved. It was based on the believe that Gods and their Order are directly linked, and thus the destruction of a god would result in the destruction of their order. Since there are multiple gods with the same order, it was believed there are "alike orders". This was disproved.
"Gods are the race that controls the world. Each person has some kind of "order" as their authority and is extremely powerful." - LN Keyword
Gods only control their order. If a god is destroyed, then they can no longer control their order in their world, resulting in it being disturbed and removed from their world's natural cycle. That same order still exists across the entire Silver Sea.
 
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imZer0Null said:
There aren't any statements that properly explain this...

I will try to give you an accurate explanation:

Order encompasses the entire Silver Sea.
"In accordance with the order of the Silver Sea, the magic power flows to the deep layer and the order exerts its power in the deep places." - WN Chapter 502
In this statement, they use "order" (singular) and say that order exerts its power in deeper layers. This means that a single order encompasses the entire Silver Sea, but while order in the first layer would be a "base type 3 concept", order in deeper layers would be uncountably greater.
I know this isn't very good evidence, but order encompassing the entire Silver Sea is further supported by the fact that there hasn't been any "alike orders" in the story yet.

The main argument for order being limited to a single world has also been disproved. It was based on the believe that Gods and their Order are directly linked, and thus the destruction of a god would result in the destruction of their order. Since there are multiple gods with the same order, it was believed there are "alike orders". This was proved to be false.
"Gods are the race that controls the world. Each person has some kind of "order" as their authority and is extremely powerful." - LN Keyword
Gods only control their order. If a god is destroyed, then they can no longer control their order in their world, resulting in it being disturbed and removed from their world's natural cycle. That same order still exists across the entire Silver Sea.
Click to expand...
There are "alike orders" though. Unless you're trying to say that Militia is the only God of Creation in the Silver Sea.
 
imZer0Null said:
There aren't any statements that properly explain this...

I will try to give you an accurate explanation:

Order encompasses the entire Silver Sea.
"In accordance with the order of the Silver Sea, the magic power flows to the deep layer and the order exerts its power in the deep places." - WN Chapter 502
In this statement, they use "order" (singular) and say that order exerts its power in deeper layers. This means that a single order encompasses the entire Silver Sea, but while order in the first layer would be a "base type 3 concept", order in deeper layers would be uncountably greater.
I know this isn't very good evidence, but order encompassing the entire Silver Sea is further supported by the fact that there hasn't been any "alike orders" in the story yet.

The main argument for order being limited to a single world has also been disproved. It was based on the believe that Gods and their Order are directly linked, and thus the destruction of a god would result in the destruction of their order. Since there are multiple gods with the same order, it was believed there are "alike orders". This was proved to be false.
"Gods are the race that controls the world. Each person has some kind of "order" as their authority and is extremely powerful." - LN Keyword
Gods only control their order. If a god is destroyed, then they can no longer control their order in their world, resulting in it being disturbed and removed from their world's natural cycle. That same order still exists across the entire Silver Sea.
Click to expand...
Also, there is actual proof that Gods are directly linked to their Order. In this chapter(https://ncode.syosetu.com/n1578dx/488/) Anos straight-up says that the Eques kiln is the order of the world. Not that it possesses the order of the world. That it is.
 
AncientKing95 said:
There are "alike orders" though. Unless you're trying to say that Militia is the only God of Creation in the Silver Sea.
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There are multiple Gods of Creation, but they all control the same Order of Creation. Their control over their order is limited to their world (Low 2-C range), but the Order of Creation itself isn't limited to their worlds, and encompasses the entire Silver Sea.
 
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imZer0Null said:
There are multiple Gods of Creation, but they all control the same Order of Creation. Their control over their order is limited to their world (Low 2-C range), but the Order of Creation itself isn't limited to their worlds, and encompasses the entire Silver Sea.
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Their control over their order isn't limited to their world. We've already seen Militia exert her order-- The Moon of Creation <Artier Tonoa> in a deeper layer in the Silver Sea.
 
AncientKing95 said:
Their control over their order isn't limited to their world. We've already seen Militia exert her order-- The Moon of Creation <Artier Tonoa> in a deeper layer in the Silver Sea.
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Moon of Creation =/= Order of Creation.
The Moon of Creation is an ability that utilizes the Order of Creation, but it is not the Order of Creation itself.
 
I still think we need more knowledgeable members' opinions on this, since I'm not very knowledgeable about conceptual manipulation, but for the time being, please respond to this saying whether you agree or disagree with the summary.
(You must provide a valid reason for disagreeing)

imZer0Null said:
I think we should wait for some more knowledgeable members' opinions on this before we continue.

A summary:

The cosmology's rating seems to be accepted.

Characters with the "Post-Silver Sea" key are "Uncountable * 21" in the Low 2-C tier.
Venuzdonoa and "True Power" Anos are "Countless * 100 (99+)" in the 2-B tier.

The conceptual manipulation upgrade is still in progress.

Here are the current reasons for why concept manipulation type 2 might be possible. Please correct me if the reasons are incorrect.

Order (laws and concepts) from deeper layers are uncountably greater than order from shallow layers.
If Order X was erased from a shallow layer, Order X from a deeper layer would be unaffected.
Order from a deeper layer could also be considered to somewhat transcend order from a shallow layer.
"If I had to compare it to something, it would be to the idea of plato where what we see in a lower reality is only an imperfect manifestation of the actual concept that exists in a superior layer or so."

A recently added reason would be that there exists an "Order of Order". This order creates and maintains all other orders. No other order can exist if this order doesn't exist. If this order is destroyed, all other orders is also destroyed.

If concept manipulation type 2 isn't accepted, characters with the "Post-Silver Sea" key that can manipulate concepts in a deep layer would be able to negate 21 layers of resistance, while Venuzdonoa and "True Power" Anos would be able to negate 100 (99+) layers of resistance to Conceptual Manipulation Type 3.
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imZer0Null said:
Moon of Creation =/= Order of Creation.
The Moon of Creation is an ability that utilizes the Order of Creation, but it is not the Order of Creation itself.
Click to expand...
The story itself said that the Order of Destruction was turned into Venuzdonoa, not that an ability that utilizes the Order of Destruction was turned into Venuzdonoa. Now, tell me, what was this Order of Destruction? It was the Sun of Ruin. The Sun of Ruin=Order of Destruction(Militia World) and the Moon of Creation=Order of Creation(Militia World).

Yes, all Worlds possess their own Order of Creation, as well as all other Orders. But they're completely unrelated to each other.
 
To add onto my point that what the Gods utilize aren't abilities of their Order but the Order itself: If the Sun of Ruin wasn't the Order of Destruction itself but just an ability that utilizes the Order of Destruction, then Anos converting the Sun of Ruin into Venuzdonoa wouldn't have disturbed the Order of Destruction within the world. After all, he didn't convert the Order of Destruction, but just an ability of it.
 
AncientKing95 said:
To add onto my point that what the Gods utilize aren't abilities of their Order but the Order itself: If the Sun of Ruin wasn't the Order of Destruction itself but just an ability that utilizes the Order of Destruction, then Anos converting the Sun of Ruin into Venuzdonoa wouldn't have disturbed the Order of Destruction within the world. After all, he didn't convert the Order of Destruction, but just an ability of it.
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Moon of creation and sun of ruin sure is the ability to utilize the power of the order

But Anos blatanly said that he's limiting the order of destruction usage to reduce destruction in the world
 
AncientKing95 said:
stuff
Click to expand...
Go read the descriptions for the Moon of Creation or Sun of Destruction. They are abilities that utilizes order. You could argue that they are aspects of the order, but destroying the ability doesn't destroy the order. If you destroy the ability it could disturb the order in that world, but wouldn't affect the order across the entire Silver Sea.

"'A sword that cuts shadows and turns them into magic circles-no. This is magic that disturbs order.'

Kostoria immediately discovers the characteristics of Venuzdonoa and approaches its abyss.

'We use the power of the god of destruction to build the technique. No. It's just a seal to control the power. The essence of magic is deeper and deeper.'" - WN Chapter 527

Anos only used the Order of Destruction as a seal to control Venuzdonoa's power, and didn't directly convert the Order of Destruction into Venuzdonoa. Also, if Anos disturbs the Order Of Destruction, then naturally the Sun of Destruction, an ability that utilizes that order, would also be disturbed.
 
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imZer0Null said:
Go read the descriptions for the Moon of Creation or Sun of Destruction. They are abilities that utilizes order. You could argue that they are aspects of the order, but destroying the ability doesn't destroy the order. If you destroy the ability it could disturb the order in that world, but wouldn't affect the order across the entire Silver Sea.

"'A sword that cuts shadows and turns them into magic circles-no. This is magic that disturbs order.'

Kostoria immediately discovers the characteristics of Venuzdonoa and approaches its abyss.

'We use the power of the god of destruction to build the technique. No. It's just a seal to control the power. The essence of magic is deeper and deeper.'" - WN Chapter 527

Anos only used the Order of Destruction as a seal to control Venuzdonoa's power, and didn't directly convert the Order of Destruction into Venuzdonoa.
Click to expand...
imZer0Null said:
Go read the descriptions for the Moon of Creation or Sun of Destruction. They are abilities that utilizes order. You could argue that they are aspects of the order, but destroying the ability doesn't destroy the order. If you destroy the ability it could disturb the order in that world, but wouldn't affect the order across the entire Silver Sea.

"'A sword that cuts shadows and turns them into magic circles-no. This is magic that disturbs order.'

Kostoria immediately discovers the characteristics of Venuzdonoa and approaches its abyss.

'We use the power of the god of destruction to build the technique. No. It's just a seal to control the power. The essence of magic is deeper and deeper.'" - WN Chapter 527

Anos only used the Order of Destruction as a seal to control Venuzdonoa's power, and didn't directly convert the Order of Destruction into Venuzdonoa.
Click to expand...
You get what I mean. My point is, Anos stripped away the Sun of Ruin from the world and used it as a seal for Venuzdonoa. It was due to this that the order of destruction within the world was disturbed. If the Sun of Ruin is just an ability that utilizes Order, then why would Anos stripping it away affect the order of destruction within the world itself?
 
RamadhanDayYet said:
Moon of creation and sun of ruin sure is the ability to utilize the power of the order

But Anos blatanly said that he's limiting the order of destruction usage to reduce destruction in the world
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You didn't provide an explanation for your claim, so whats the point in making that claim? Also, yes, Anos said he was limiting the Order of destruction within the world. He did this by taking away the <Sun of Ruin> and transforming it (into) a part of Venuzdonoa.
 
AncientKing95 said:
stuff
Click to expand...
Send me a statement that says Anos specifically used the Sun of Destruction. There are multiple statements that says he used the Order of Destruction, but I haven't seen anything saying he specifically used the Sun of Destruction.
Also, I did acknowledge that the abilities and their order could be connected, but they are in no way the same thing.
 
AncientKing95 said:
You didn't provide an explanation for your claim, so whats the point in making that claim? Also, yes, Anos said he was limiting the Order of destruction within the world. He did this by taking away the <Sun of Ruin> and transforming it (into) a part of Venuzdonoa
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Says the guy who said sun of ruin is the order of destruction without giving spesific scan

Also yea, he directly said order of destruction Already taken and limited by him, unless it's stated otherwise

Damaging the ability from the order just make them Disturbed not completely/directly affect the order itself
 
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imZer0Null said:
Send me a statement that says Anos specifically used the Sun of Destruction. There are multiple statements that says he used the Order of Destruction, but I haven't seen anything saying he specifically used the Sun of Destruction.
Also, I did acknowledge that the abilities and their order could be connected, but they are in no way the same thing.
Click to expand...
Venuzdonoa literally turns back into the Sun of Ruin in this chapter: https://ncode.syosetu.com/n1578dx/186/
 
AncientKing95 said:
stuff
Click to expand...
That doesn't prove anything. It could simply be that the Sun of Destruction appeared because the Order of Destruction was no longer disturbed.
Also, it's possible that the Sun of Destruction is just the ability that the God of Destruction uses to control the Order of Destruction in that world.
The point remains that Sun of Destruction =/= Order of Destruction. (Order ability =/= Order itself)
 
imZer0Null said:
That doesn't prove anything. It could simply be that the Sun of Destruction appeared because the Order of Destruction was no longer disturbed.
Also, it's possible that the Sun of Destruction is just the ability that the God of Destruction uses to control the Order of Destruction in that world.
The point remains that Sun of Destruction =/= Order of Destruction. (Order ability =/= Order itself)
Click to expand...
No, it was made pretty obvious that Venuzdonoa turned back into the Sun of Ruin. If you want it to be any more obvious, then in this chapter(https://ncode.syosetu.com/n1578dx/390/), Anos literally tells Venuzdonoa to return to it's original form as the Sun of Ruin <Surge El Donave>.
 
imZer0Null said:
That doesn't prove anything. It could simply be that the Sun of Destruction appeared because the Order of Destruction was no longer disturbed.
Also, it's possible that the Sun of Destruction is just the ability that the God of Destruction uses to control the Order of Destruction in that world.
The point remains that Sun of Destruction =/= Order of Destruction. (Order ability =/= Order itself)
Click to expand...
. . .
 
imZer0Null said:
. . .
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I literally just proved that point wrong. You're arguing that it could simply be that the Sun of Destruction appeared because the Order of Destruction was no longer disturbed. And I literally just gave proof that it appeared because Venuzdonoa turned into it.
 
AncientKing95 said:
No, it was made pretty obvious that Venuzdonoa turned back into the Sun of Ruin. If you want it to be any more obvious, then in this chapter(https://ncode.syosetu.com/n1578dx/390/), Anos literally tells Venuzdonoa to return to it's original form as the Sun of Ruin <Surge El Donave>.
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It's still not prove anything bout sun of ruin being same with the order of destruction , it's also already determined that sun of ruin is part of destruction order, so if Venuzdonoa reverted into order of destruction, then sun of Bruhin is the only possible option to manisfested the original form
 
Alphaapexnep00 said:
Lets be real no one apart from does two and oblivion knows what's happening.
Click to expand...
I absolutely have idea of what is being debated and I'm def not being bias
632092043ad50c112f94b25d802c0198.jpg
 
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