• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Cosmology rating and possible Conceptual Manipulation upgrade - Maou Gakuin

Status
Not open for further replies.
873
661
Hello. This thread's purpose IS NOT to upgrade the verse's cosmology rating to Tier 1.
This thread was created to confirm how strong the verse currently is rated and possibly upgrade some characters' Conceptual Manipulation...

I will be using info from this blog. While I acknowledge it probably has some mistakes, it's at least more detailed and overall better than the previous 1-B Maou Gakuin CRT. I would recommend reading the blog before continuing...

From the blog:

A summary for Maou Gakuin's cosmology:

The multiverse
(Silver Sea) is comprised of 99+ layers (Each layer possibly having infinite size), with each layer containing countless universes (Worlds), all of which are separate space-time continuums in the shape of bubbles.

Layers 1 to 10 are classified as Shallow Layers. Layers 11 to 20 are classified as Middle Layers. Layers 21+ are classified as Deep Layers.

Those are the classifications when taking the entire multiverse into account. Layer 2 would still be called a deep layer by someone from Layer 1, and Layer 21 would still be called a shallow layer by someone from Layer 22.

The overall "strength", meaning attack potency, durability and speed, as well as the "strength" of laws and concepts from a deep world is at least uncountably greater than that of a shallow world. The difference between layers is directly compared to the difference between dimensions.

Deep layer inhabitants can use shallow universes as shogi pieces, while only the strongest inhabitant of a shallow universe can use their own universe as a shogi piece, though this is only possible with the help of a deep layer inhabitant.

Spells capable of destroying an entire universe (Space-time continuum) from a shallow layer cannot destroy an ordinary object in a deep layer.


Current Cosmology rating:

Currently, all characters with the "Post-Silver Sea" key are at least 21 layers deep in the Silver Sea.

It's been accepted in a previous CRT that all these characters are Low 2-C.
Since they are 21 layers deep in the Silver Sea, and the difference between layers (the overall "strength", meaning attack potency, durability and speed, as well as the "strength" of laws and concepts) is at least uncountable, they would all be rated "Uncountable * 21" in the Low 2-C tier.

Venuzdonoa can destroy all things in creation, regardless of how strong, eternal or infinite they are, which would include the Silver Sea. "True Power" Anos Voldigoad would scale to that, since he's technically superior to Venuzdonoa.
Since both are capable of destroying the Silver Sea, they would be rated "Countless * 100" in the 2-B tier. (100 because 99+ means at least 1 deeper layer is confirmed)

(This won't be added to any profiles. It's only for confirmation)

They also get "Possibly 1-B" because of the difference between layers...

Possible Conceptual Manipulation upgrade:

Please note that I'm not very knowledgeable about the different types of conceptual manipulation.

The order (laws and concepts) in deeper layers are superior to that of shallow layers, so even if you destroy a certain order in a shallow layer, it would still exist in a deeper layer due to the "strength" of order being at least uncountably greater and also independent of what happens in the shallow layer.
This would give characters capable of manipulating concepts in a deeper layer "Conceptual Manipulation Type 2" or "Conceptual Manipulation Type 3, likely Type 2".

**If Conceptual Manipulation Type 2 is not accepted, I have another suggestion.

Characters with the "Post-Silver Sea" key that can manipulate *laws and concepts in a deep layer would be able to overpower 21 layers of resistance, while Venuzdonoa and "True Power" Anos would be able to overpower 100 (99+) layers of resistance to *Law Manipulation & Conceptual Manipulation Type 3. (Order = laws and concepts)

Please specify what you agree/disagree with.
 
Last edited:
Does't each layer has conceptual on itself and separated from each other ? , If it stated like that we do not allowed , there're just type 3 but higher potency.
 
Just because Concepts belong to a higher level of reality and would be unaffected if a lower level of reality is destroyed does not make them Type 2, they would only be Type 2 if they are above every level of reality they interact with including said higher levels. This is still just Type 3.
 
Just because Concepts belong to a higher level of reality and would be unaffected if a lower level of reality is destroyed does not make them Type 2, they would only be Type 2 if they are above every level of reality they interact with including said higher levels. This is still just Type 3.
That is exactly how concept type 2 works.
2. False Platonic Concept: Such concepts, or forms, are mostly transcendent of reality. These concepts shape all of reality and whatever level that reality exists in, and everything in reality "participates" in these concepts. These concepts interact with their objects in the same manner as listed above. In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept on whatever scale has been shown.
 
If it does not affect the deep layers, it only means that the concept between layers is much superior, but in the same way Anos's still able to affect the concepts of the deep layers
 
Higher layer as in, to explain in simple terms; that destroying a single Universe a Multiversal Concept applies to won't affect said Concept but doesn't make it Type 2. Of course, this is more like destroying a single layer of a Multiverse won't affect a Concept because the Multiverse it applies to is so much bigger than that, still doesn't make it Type 2.

To be Type 2 would require the Concept to be above everything in the Silver Sea, or at least have proof that said Concept is only limited to a certain area of the Silver Sea and is above said limited area it affects.
 
Thank you for helping out Everything12.
 
No this is above if the Concept is Type 2 or 3, and when talking about the difference between the Types its vital to speak of the areas they affect and their relationship with them. It would only be Type 2 if it existed above everything it applies to, not just be able to be unaffected if only a small area it applies to is destroyed.
 
Higher layer as in, to explain in simple terms; that destroying a single Universe a Multiversal Concept applies to won't affect said Concept but doesn't make it Type 2. Of course, this is more like destroying a single layer of a Multiverse won't affect a Concept because the Multiverse it applies to is so much bigger than that, still doesn't make it Type 2.

To be Type 2 would require the Concept to be above everything in the Silver Sea, or at least have proof that said Concept is only limited to a certain area of the Silver Sea and is above said limited area it affects.
They erase the entire concept, and the higher layers aren't affected, which is the proof of type 2
 
No this is above if the Concept is Type 2 or 3, and when talking about the difference between the Types its vital to speak of the areas they affect and their relationship with them.
Occam's Razor. Nothing suggests the concept is the same across the entire silver sea when the weight of order exists to dIfferentiate from that.
 
I want you to clarify exactly why you think this is Type 2, because the OP says this:
The order (laws and concepts) in deeper layers are superior to that of shallow layers, so even if you destroy a certain order in a shallow layer, it would still exist in a deeper layer due to the "strength" of order being at least uncountably greater and also independent of what happens in the shallow layer.
Which is saying that the Orders are shared among higher layers?

And it the Order's are truly independent regardless of how similar they are between layer, then destroying a shallow layer and its Order would not prove anything about the higher Orders being independent of them.
 
"destroy concept on lower-layer , but on higher-layer concept still exist" , does my understanding is corretc ?
 
In MG, order = a certain concept

What he is saying is that if you erase X concept itself from a shallow layer, the X from the deep layer would still be unnafected

If I had to compare to something, it would be to the idea of plato where what we see in a lower reality is only an imperfect manifestation of the actual concept that exists in a superior layer or so (and platonic shenanigans are type 2 here). But either way, this is either a very strong/layered concept manip type 3 or concept type 2
 
I want to clarify something, I don't have any examples because this situation is extremely extremely rare in fiction. But if we had a Higher-Dimensions true Low 1-C Concept but said Concept showed the traits of a Type 3 Concept (destroy everything in the 4D and 5D parts of Verse it applies to destroys it) then it would be Type 3, it being Higher Dimensional and above the 4D verse does not automatically make its Type 2 if it doesn't exhibit the traits.

It being unaffected by the destruction of everything in the 4D would not be evidence for Type 2 because all the 5D stuff it applies to is still unaffected, only by proving both the alteration of the 4D and 5D would not affect it would it prove its Type 2.
 
I've already commented on the tier 1 stuff on the previous thread so I won't be getting into that. As for the concept stuff, it's best to wait for the revision that's going on right now on how we treat concepts before coming to a conclusion here, since it's still not exactly decided on how we're going to treat the types from what I saw.
 
Doesn't it seem like the only changes of Concepts is we merge Types 1 and 2 as the only actual difference is that Type 1's are 1-A, which is an unnecessary difference to make a different Type for, and all the other Types go up a number to fill the vacant position? There won't be any actual changes to what Types 2 and 3 are besides said number, which wouldn't affect this CRT?
 
Doesn't it seem like the only changes of Concepts is we merge Types 1 and 2 as the only actual difference is that Type 1's are 1-A, which is an unnecessary difference to make a different Type for, and all the other Types go up a number to fill the vacant position? There won't be any actual changes to what Types 2 and 3 are besides said number, which wouldn't affect this CRT?
ye, that is the only difference between type 1 and 2, but I don't see how type 3 would be affected by it
 
Because if Type 1 and 2 is merged that means there won't be a Type 2, which would make it skip from Type 1 to Type 3 than Type 4, so all their names would be changed, but besides that no difference.
 
Sorry for OOT

Is the venuzdoa like shandalphon from Date a live and Shandalphon getting Cm2

However i agree With this because sandhalpon got cm2
 
I've already commented on the tier 1 stuff on the previous thread so I won't be getting into that. As for the concept stuff, it's best to wait for the revision that's going on right now on how we treat concepts before coming to a conclusion here, since it's still not exactly decided on how we're going to treat the types from what I saw.
Kinda derailing but could you link this CRT? If possible.
 
They can't just agree or disagree, if they don't state the reason and explain why, it will have practically no relevance, since it is between yes and no.
 
in fact what was shown there is only type 3 conceptual manipulation, cosmology already confirms this From what they said, the alteration of concepts in the lower layers does not interfere in the upper layers, which already contradicts the conceptual manipulation type 2, its definition is "Such concepts, or forms, are mostly transcendent of reality. These concepts shape all of reality and whatever level that reality exists in, and everything in reality" participates "in these concepts. These concepts interact with their objects in the same manner as listed In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept on whatever scale has been shown. " If changing the concept in one layer does not interfere with the upper one, it means that that same concept does not govern the entire reality of Maou, the greatest proof of this is that each layer has its own God
 
It seems like the cosmology's rating is mostly accepted.

As for the concept manipulation upgrade...

The best example I can think of is the Order of Destruction. Anos "disturbed" the Order of Destruction, meaning he manipulated the concept of destruction, which affected the entire universe, yet deeper worlds are completely unaffected by that.

Completely erasing an order from the universe would destroy the universe as a by-product, but deeper worlds would still be unaffected by that.
What this means is that if you completely erase a certain concept in a shallow layer, that same concept in a deeper layer would be unaffected.

The "strength of order"/"weight of order" is said to be the amount of influence order (laws and concept) has on the Silver Sea. If in some way it was possible to bring "order from a deeper layer" together with "order from a shallow layer", the order from the deeper layer would be uncountably greater than that of the shallow layer, meaning the order from the shallow layer would seem to participate in the order from the deeper layer.

Anyways, if Conceptual Manipulation Type 2 is not accepted, I have another suggestion.

Characters with the "Post-Silver Sea" key that can manipulate concepts in a deep layer would be able to negate 21 layers of resistance, while Venuzdonoa and "True Power" Anos would be able to negate 100 (99+) layers of resistance to Conceptual Manipulation Type 3.
 
Last edited:
Right , that already refutes the CM type 2, after all it is not affecting the whole reality of the Silver Sea, but only one layer
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top