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Cosmology rating and possible Conceptual Manipulation upgrade - Maou Gakuin

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If I'm not mistaken, Nousgalia controls the "Order of Order".
Without his order, no other orders can exist.
If his order is destroyed, all orders would be destroyed.

Doesn't that somewhat qualify as a Type 2 concept? Or would it rather be something along the lines of, "Concepts cannot exist without the concept of concepts", and thus remain a Type 3 concept?
Well Naousgalia thing is also possible for type 2 concept
 
DAL got type 2 without good reason if we looked at concept page just cut concept between world is not enough.
 
The thing we brought up for type 2 is silversea concept and naousgalia ( maybe another thread)

They can still be affected each other, and linked each other, but i don't know if the deeper destroyed, would the shallow one too, considering how the orders work it's should be like that
 
"Disappear and collapse" doesn't sound like "destroyed" to me... If Eques was destroyed, and could no longer control his order, then of course it would "disappear and collapse", because the order was disturbed, and thus removed from the natural cycle of the world. Since he was the unofficial Lord God, meaning his order would've become the foundation of the world, it would also be natural that the world could possibly be destroyed if his order was destroyed, same as with Nousgalia.

From the LN Keyword:

Order: The various laws that make up the world, or the power of the gods that keep these laws normal. There are various orders such as “time”, “creation”, and “destruction”, and the same number of gods control them.

Gods: The race that controls the world. Each person has some kind of "order" as their authority and is extremely powerful.
 
"Disappear and collapse" doesn't sound like "destroyed" to me... If Eques was destroyed, and could no longer control his order, then of course it would "disappear and collapse", because the order was disturbed, and thus removed from the natural cycle of the world. Since he was the unofficial Lord God, meaning his order would've become the foundation of the world, it would also be natural that the world could possibly be destroyed if his order was destroyed, same as with Nousgalia.

From the LN Keyword:

Order: The various laws that make up the world, or the power of the gods that keep these laws normal. There are various orders such as “time”, “creation”, and “destruction”, and the same number of gods control them.

Gods: The race that controls the world. Each person has some kind of "order" as their authority and is extremely powerful.
Going off of your logic, not even the destruction of a God that pertains to a certain Order would lead to the destruction of that certain Order. So there is nothing that could destroy an Order in the first place. Which means that your argument of, "if the concept of a shallow layer was destroyed it wouldn't affect the concept of a deeper layer but if the concept of a deeper layer was destroyed it would affect the concept of a shallow layer" is utterly pointless and isn't valid.
 
I think we should wait for some more knowledgeable members' opinions on this before we continue.

A summary:

The cosmology's rating seems to be accepted.

Characters with the "Post-Silver Sea" key are "Uncountable * 21" in the Low 2-C tier.
Venuzdonoa and "True Power" Anos are "Countless * 100 (99+)" in the 2-B tier.

The conceptual manipulation upgrade is still in progress.

Here are the current reasons for why concept manipulation type 2 might be possible. Please correct me if the reasons are incorrect.

Order (laws and concepts) from deeper layers are uncountably greater than order from shallow layers.
If Order X was erased from a shallow layer, Order X from a deeper layer would be unaffected.
Order from a deeper layer could also be considered to somewhat transcend order from a shallow layer.
"If I had to compare it to something, it would be to the idea of plato where what we see in a lower reality is only an imperfect manifestation of the actual concept that exists in a superior layer or so."

A recently added reason would be that there exists an "Order of Order". This order creates and maintains all other orders. No other order can exist if this order doesn't exist. If this order is destroyed, all other orders is also destroyed.

If concept manipulation type 2 isn't accepted, characters with the "Post-Silver Sea" key that can manipulate concepts in a deep layer would be able to negate 21 layers of resistance, while Venuzdonoa and "True Power" Anos would be able to negate 100 (99+) layers of resistance to Conceptual Manipulation Type 3.
 
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If Order X was erased from a shallow layer, Order X from a deeper layer would be unaffected.
By that logic any tier 2-B conceptual manipulators would get concepts manip type 2.


Order from a deeper layer could also be considered to somewhat transcend order from a shallow layer.
"If I had to compare it to something, it would be to the idea of plato where what we see in a lower reality is only an imperfect manifestation of the actual concept that exists in a superior layer or so."
Nope, transcends is a big word. They are generally just more harder to be destroyed than shallow world.


A recently added reason would be that there exists an "Order of Order". This order creates and maintains all other orders. No other order can exist if this order doesn't exist. If this order is destroyed, all other orders is also destroyed
Prove that the concepts on shallow layers are dependent on deeper layers concepts.

If concept manipulation type 2 isn't accepted, characters with the "Post-Silver Sea" key that can manipulate concepts in a deep layer would be able to negate 21 layers of resistance, while Venuzdonoa and "True Power" Anos would be able to negate 100 (99+) layers of resistance to Conceptual Manipulation Type 3.
That's i don't know how to deal with it, leaving it for the more knowledgeable member.
 
Venuzdonoa and Magic Eye of Chaotic Destruction laughing in the distance
What I mean is, the concept of an Order. If an Order was completely destroyed, so would its concept which means that aspect of the world would be destroyed. Yet all of the concepts of the world are perfectly fine, which means that Anos hasn't completely destroyed any concepts.
 
False equivalency as the concept normally would be gone from the entire multiverse, but in this case it isn't

->Nit-picking and not looking at the nucleus of the argument
This. ^

The reason for possible concept manipulation type 2 has nothing to do with the Silver Sea being a multiverse. It has to do with the difference between layers (the overall "strength", meaning attack potency, durability and speed, as well as the "strength" of laws and concepts) being at least uncountable.
 
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I think we should wait for some more knowledgeable members' opinions on this before we continue.

A summary:

The cosmology's rating seems to be accepted.

Characters with the "Post-Silver Sea" key are "Uncountable * 21" in the Low 2-C tier.
Venuzdonoa and "True Power" Anos are "Countless * 100 (99+)" in the 2-B tier.

The conceptual manipulation upgrade is still in progress.

Here are the current reasons for why concept manipulation type 2 might be possible. Please correct me if the reasons are incorrect.

Order (laws and concepts) from deeper layers are uncountably greater than order from shallow layers.
If Order X was erased from a shallow layer, Order X from a deeper layer would be unaffected.
Order from a deeper layer could also be considered to somewhat transcend order from a shallow layer.
"If I had to compare it to something, it would be to the idea of plato where what we see in a lower reality is only an imperfect manifestation of the actual concept that exists in a superior layer or so."

A recently added reason would be that there exists an "Order of Order". This order creates and maintains all other orders. No other order can exist if this order doesn't exist. If this order is destroyed, all other orders is also destroyed.

If concept manipulation type 2 isn't accepted, characters with the "Post-Silver Sea" key that can manipulate concepts in a deep layer would be able to negate 21 layers of resistance, while Venuzdonoa and "True Power" Anos would be able to negate 100 (99+) layers of resistance to Conceptual Manipulation Type 3.
Summary from page 1:
 
What I mean is, the concept of an Order. If an Order was completely destroyed, so would its concept which means that aspect of the world would be destroyed. Yet all of the concepts of the world are perfectly fine, which means that Anos hasn't completely destroyed any concepts.
He destroyed Eques' order of <Beld Rase Femblem> to save the Demon King's Garden.
 
The destruction of a concept from World X (a deep world) would not result in the destruction of the same concept from World Y (a shallow world).
 
I did say that was only a theory... That's why it isn't added in the summary.
I understand that its a theory, it just doesn't make any sense. Its like saying that a deep world being destroyed would lead to all the shallow worlds before it being destroyed just because its uncountably deeper.
 
I understand that its a theory, it just doesn't make any sense. Its like saying that a deep world being destroyed would lead to all the shallow worlds before it being destroyed just because its uncountably deeper.
It's based on theories about higher- and lower reality concepts.
 
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False equivalency as the concept normally would be gone from the entire multiverse, but in this case it isnt

->Nitpicking and not looking at the nucleus of the argument
False equivalent?

Each world had their own concepts and order. Destroying concepts on World X wouldn't do anything to world Y.

What do you mean?

Destroying a concepts in single universe didn't automatically destroy the concepts of the whole multiverse, thats exactly how type 3 works. You know how type 3 concepts works aren't you?

Nucleus of the argument?

He just exaggerating deeper layers. Deeper layers just much more stronger and a lot harder.

Also Where's the proof that concepts in shallow layers are dependent on deeper layers?
 
Not really. If you have 2-B range and erase concept X, X would be gone from the entire multiverse. Now this wouldnt be the case in MG even if the character has 2-B range since deeper layers with heavier order exists. They must have the necessary potency to affect said order.

Yes, you missed the main point of his premise in that comment, which was the comparison to plato's idea.
 
What are the summarised conclusions here so far?
 
What are the summarised conclusions here so far?

I think we should wait for some more knowledgeable members' opinions on this before we continue.

A summary:

The cosmology's rating seems to be accepted.

Characters with the "Post-Silver Sea" key are "Uncountable * 21" in the Low 2-C tier.
Venuzdonoa and "True Power" Anos are "Countless * 100 (99+)" in the 2-B tier.

The conceptual manipulation upgrade is still in progress.

Here are the current reasons for why concept manipulation type 2 might be possible. Please correct me if the reasons are incorrect.

Order (laws and concepts) from deeper layers are uncountably greater than order from shallow layers.
If Order X was erased from a shallow layer, Order X from a deeper layer would be unaffected.
Order from a deeper layer could also be considered to somewhat transcend order from a shallow layer.
"If I had to compare it to something, it would be to the idea of plato where what we see in a lower reality is only an imperfect manifestation of the actual concept that exists in a superior layer or so."

A recently added reason would be that there exists an "Order of Order". This order creates and maintains all other orders. No other order can exist if this order doesn't exist. If this order is destroyed, all other orders is also destroyed.

If concept manipulation type 2 isn't accepted, characters with the "Post-Silver Sea" key that can manipulate concepts in a deep layer would be able to negate 21 layers of resistance, while Venuzdonoa and "True Power" Anos would be able to negate 100 (99+) layers of resistance to Conceptual Manipulation Type 3.
 
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I'm still of the opinion that the interpretation given above is not Type 2. As the whole a single Order, spread through all layers, is greater in Deeper layers and won't be affected by the destruction of its erasure in Shallow layers doesn't meet the requirements for Type 2.

However, theirs been so many interpretations of the Orders and how Shallow/Deeper Orders affect each other it's hard to get a clear grasp on what said here is correct or not. I believe that more scans and quotes are probably necessary at this point just to figure out what's true and whats headcanon.
 
Everything12 makes sense to me. Should I ask some more staff members to help us out?
 
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