• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Cosmology rating and possible Conceptual Manipulation upgrade - Maou Gakuin

Status
Not open for further replies.
Ian2296 said:
Idk if this will helps or not, but deeper worlds inhabitant is naturally stronger than the Lord God/Chief God.
Click to expand...
Not all deeper world inhabitants are stronger than the Lord God of a more shallow world. Ronkross' point was that it is natural that some deeper world inhabitants could be stronger than the Lord God of a more shallow world, but it isn't natural whatsoever and should be impossible that the inhabitants of that Lord God's world are more powerful than that Lord God. You have to remember, Ronkross is considered extremely powerful across the entire Silver Sea as "inviolable waters" due to possessing the Tyrant Noah's body. He isn't your average deeper world inhabitant.

In this chapter(https://ncode.syosetu.com/n1578dx/510/) it is stated that not all inhabitants of a deeper world could defeat the Lord God of a shallow world.
 
AncientKing95 said:
Not all deeper world inhabitants are stronger than the Lord God of a more shallow world. Ronkross' point was that it is natural that some deeper world inhabitants could be stronger than the Lord God of a more shallow world, but it isn't natural whatsoever and should be impossible that the inhabitants of that Lord God's world are more powerful than that Lord God. You have to remember, Ronkross is considered extremely powerful across the entire Silver Sea as "inviolable waters" due to possessing the Tyrant Noah's body. He isn't your average deeper world inhabitant.

In this chapter(https://ncode.syosetu.com/n1578dx/510/) it is stated that not all inhabitants of a deeper world could defeat the Lord God of a shallow world.
Click to expand...
is it? I though when Roncruz said this, he was reffering to all of the deeper world inhabitants.
"... Sir is a resident of the shallow world. Even if I was born in a deeper world than that, it is natural that I am stronger than the main god of the Lord's world. However, it is almost unthinkable for people in the same world to do that ... ”
Click to expand...
 
imZer0Null said:
I think we should wait for some more knowledgeable members' opinions on this before we continue.

A summary:

The cosmology's rating seems to be accepted.

Characters with the "Post-Silver Sea" key are "Uncountable * 21" in the Low 2-C tier.
Venuzdonoa and "True Power" Anos are "Countless * 100 (99+)" in the 2-B tier.

The conceptual manipulation upgrade is still in progress.

Here are the current reasons for why concept manipulation type 2 might be possible.

Order (laws and concepts) from deeper layers are uncountably greater than order from shallow layers.
If Order X was erased from a shallow layer, Order X from a deeper layer would be unaffected.
Order from a deeper layer could also be considered to somewhat transcend order from a shallow layer.
"If I had to compare it to something, it would be to the idea of plato where what we see in a lower reality is only an imperfect manifestation of the actual concept that exists in a superior layer or so."

The main argument against concept manipulation type 2 is that erasing Order X from a deeper layer likely won't affect Order X from a shallow layer.

A recently added reason would be that there exists an "Order of Order". This order creates and maintains all other orders. No other order can exist if this order doesn't exist. If this order is destroyed, all other orders is also destroyed.

If Conceptual Manipulation Type 2 is not accepted, characters with the "Post-Silver Sea" key that can manipulate *laws and concepts in a deep layer would be able to overpower 21 layers of resistance, while Venuzdonoa and "True Power" Anos would be able to overpower 100 (99+) layers of resistance to *Law Manipulation & Conceptual Manipulation Type 3. (Order = laws and concepts)

Agree: @Bernkastelll @Dereck03 @Ionliosite @Zencha9 @Cloozuma @RamadhanDayYet @Infinity_Shun
Disagree: @Ned_the_outer_god (CM2) @Everything12 (CM2) @Rikimarox2 (CM2)
Neutral: @Alphaapexnep00
Click to expand...
Here is the current summary. There are other counter arguments to the CM2 upgrade after the summary, so be sure to go check it out.
I am fine with either CM2 or higher potency CM3, but I would appreciate it if we could get at least one or two more knowledgeable members' opinions on this before coming to a conclusion.
 
Ian2296 said:
is it? I though when Roncruz said this, he was reffering to all of the deeper world inhabitants.
Click to expand...
Let me put it like this, do you think your average deeper world inhabitant could survive the <Egil Grone Angdroa>? No? Most of them would perish instantly. Only those considered extremely powerful even among deeper world inhabitants could survive taking the <Egil Grone Angdroa> head on. When Eques fought Anos, Eques was able to tank and shrug off multiple <Egil Grone Angdroa> cast by Anos.

In any case, how did you read through the story thinking that Eques was weaker than all deeper world inhabitants? Context should've been enough to know around how powerful Eques is in the Silver Sea. Saying Eques is weaker than all deeper world inhabitants is like saying that none of Anos' subordinates should be stronger than any deeper world inhabitants either.
 
RamadhanDayYet said:
But not every lord gods/world head stronger than deeper world inhabitant tho

It's repeatly stated and solidified
Click to expand...
You do realize that "deeper world inhabitant" is an extremely broad term right? Deeper world inhabitant could refer to a being just one layer deeper all the way to a being 98 layers deeper. All Lord Gods are undoubtedly stronger than some deeper world inhabitants. That is an absolute fact.

And are you ignoring the <Egil Grone Angdroa> point I brought up? It's been shown that even Heads of States of deeper worlds barely were able to survive the <Egil Grone Angdroa> that Anos cast, and he didn't even cast it directly at them. Heads of States are generally one of the most powerful beings of their worlds, so it stands to reason that if those Heads of States could barely survive it, then the majority if not all other inhabitants within those worlds couldn't survive it.
 
AncientKing95 said:
You do realize that "deeper world inhabitant" is an extremely broad term right? Deeper world inhabitant could refer to a being just one layer deeper all the way to a being 98 layers deeper. All Lord Gods are undoubtedly stronger than some deeper world inhabitants. That is an absolute fact.

And are you ignoring the <Egil Grone Angdroa> point I brought up? It's been shown that even Heads of States of deeper worlds barely were able to survive the <Egil Grone Angdroa> that Anos cast, and he didn't even cast it directly at them. Heads of States are generally one of the most powerful beings of their worlds, so it stands to reason that if those Heads of States could barely survive it, then the majority if not all other inhabitants within those worlds couldn't survive it.
Click to expand...
Since when i said that "every lord god/head world is weaker than deeper inhabitant"

And you do know that anos is one of the stronger being in the verse, bad comparison

You use the spesific case to justified the gap between each Inhabitant but it's normally, should be worked likes ian interpretation and you do know the weight between the world is numerically higher, it's alread explained in the early arc
 
Last edited:
RamadhanDayYet said:
Since when i said that "every lord god/head world is weaker than deeper inhabitant"

And you do know that anos is one of the stronger being in the verse, bad comparison

You use the spesific case to justified the gap between each Inhabitant but it's normally, should be worked likes ian interpretation and you do know the weight between the world is numerically higher, it's alread explained in early arc
Click to expand...
How is using Anos a bad comparison? Anos used the <Egil Grone Angdroa> against Eques, and he used the <Egil Grone Angdroa> against multiple Heads of States of deeper worlds. Eques was able to shrug off multiple <Egil Grone Angdroa> while those Heads of States were barely able to survive a single <Egil Grone Angdroa>. Which proves that Eques is stronger than multiple deeper world inhabitants.

Yes, inhabitants of deeper worlds are generally uncountably stronger than inhabitants from shallow worlds. But its already been stated within the story that the Lord God is always an exceptional existence even in the shallow world.

You said that not all Lord Gods are stronger than deeper world inhabitants. And I'm saying that all Lord Gods are stronger than some deeper world inhabitants. There is nothing to interpret there. It's just a fact. You can't use the difference between worlds to justify a deeper world inhabitant automatically being stronger than any Lord God, when Lord Gods are uncountably more powerful than nearly everyone in their own world.
 
AncientKing95 said:
How is using Anos a bad comparison? Anos used the <Egil Grone Angdroa> against Eques, and he used the <Egil Grone Angdroa> against multiple Heads of States of deeper worlds. Eques was able to shrug off multiple <Egil Grone Angdroa> while those Heads of States were barely able to survive a single <Egil Grone Angdroa>. Which proves that Eques is stronger than multiple deeper world inhabitants.

Yes, inhabitants of deeper worlds are generally uncountably stronger than inhabitants from shallow worlds. But its already been stated within the story that the Lord God is always an exceptional existence even in the shallow world.

You said that not all Lord Gods are stronger than deeper world inhabitants. And I'm saying that all Lord Gods are stronger than some deeper world inhabitants. There is nothing to interpret there. It's just a fact. You can't use the difference between worlds to justify a deeper world inhabitant automatically being stronger than any Lord God, when Lord Gods are uncountably more powerful than nearly everyone in their own world.
Click to expand...
Anos is the main character also the misfits, he's the special one, even for deeper world inhabitant

His root is stated "should be exist in deeper world" ,it's also in the same chapter where Venuzdonoa stated to be a controller for his root and the time lag between lord feats

Lord gods is usually an exceptional (yes lord gods is stronger than most of the deeper world inhabitant except the deeper world lord gods and some dweller in there) but there's no spesific statement where All lord gods is stronger than all deeper world inhabitant, unless you can provide me some scan
 
RamadhanDayYet said:
Anos is the main character also the misfits, he's the special one, even for deeper world inhabitant

His root is stated "should be exist in deeper world" ,it's also in the same chapter where Venuzdonoa stated to be a controller for his root and the time lag between lord feats

Lord gods is usually an exceptional (yes lord gods is stronger than most of the deeper world inhabitant except the deeper world lord gods and some dweller in there) but there's no spesific statement where All lord gods is stronger than all deeper world inhabitant, unless you can provide me some scan
Click to expand...
I didn't say that all Lord Gods are stronger than all deeper world inhabitants, I said that all Lord Gods are stronger than (at least) some deeper world inhabitants. Unless you think that there are some Lord Gods who are weaker than even the weakest inhabitant of a world just one layer deeper. Which makes absolutely no sense and would contradict everything we've seen in the story so far.

Anyways, I admit that we're getting just a bit off-topic here. Although, strictly defining just how powerful a Lord God could be in relation to deeper world inhabitants could play a role in determining just how much more uncountably stronger inhabitants from deeper layers usually are in general.
 
Last edited:
imZer0Null said:
I think we should wait for some more knowledgeable members' opinions on this before we continue.

A summary:

The cosmology's rating seems to be accepted.

Characters with the "Post-Silver Sea" key are "Uncountable * 21" in the Low 2-C tier.
Venuzdonoa and "True Power" Anos are "Countless * 100 (99+)" in the 2-B tier.

The conceptual manipulation upgrade is still in progress.

Here are the current reasons for why concept manipulation type 2 might be possible.

Order (laws and concepts) from deeper layers are uncountably greater than order from shallow layers.
If Order X was erased from a shallow layer, Order X from a deeper layer would be unaffected.
Order from a deeper layer could also be considered to somewhat transcend order from a shallow layer.
"If I had to compare it to something, it would be to the idea of plato where what we see in a lower reality is only an imperfect manifestation of the actual concept that exists in a superior layer or so."

The main argument against concept manipulation type 2 is that erasing Order X from a deeper layer likely won't affect Order X from a shallow layer.

A recently added reason would be that there exists an "Order of Order". This order creates and maintains all other orders. No other order can exist if this order doesn't exist. If this order is destroyed, all other orders is also destroyed.

If Conceptual Manipulation Type 2 is not accepted, characters with the "Post-Silver Sea" key that can manipulate *laws and concepts in a deep layer would be able to overpower 21 layers of resistance, while Venuzdonoa and "True Power" Anos would be able to overpower 100 (99+) layers of resistance to *Law Manipulation & Conceptual Manipulation Type 3. (Order = laws and concepts)

Agree: @Bernkastelll @Dereck03 @Ionliosite @Zencha9 @Cloozuma @RamadhanDayYet @Infinity_Shun
Disagree: @Ned_the_outer_god (CM2) @Everything12 (CM2) @Rikimarox2 (CM2)
Neutral: @Alphaapexnep00
Click to expand...
@Eficiente @GyroNutz @DarkGrath @The_Wright_Way @Ogbunabali @Moritzva @DemonGodMitchAubin @Everything12 @Duedate8898

Your input here would be appreciated.
 
AncientKing95 said:
I didn't say that all Lord Gods are stronger than all deeper world inhabitants, I said that all Lord Gods are stronger than (at least) some deeper world inhabitants. Unless you think that there are some Lord Gods who are weaker than even the weakest inhabitant of a world just one layer deeper. Which makes absolutely no sense and would contradict everything we've seen in the story so far.

Anyways, I admit that we're getting just a bit off-topic here. Although, strictly defining just how powerful a Lord God could be in relation to deeper world inhabitants could play a role in determining just how much more uncountably stronger inhabitants from deeper layers usually are in general.
Click to expand...
For the lord gods case, we seems already reach the conclusion, because in the first place, I think the same way, but bit different, you're bit misinterprated some of my point

Let's end this out of topic debate here
 
imZer0Null said:
I think we should wait for some more knowledgeable members' opinions on this before we continue.

A summary:

The cosmology's rating seems to be accepted.

Characters with the "Post-Silver Sea" key are "Uncountable * 21" in the Low 2-C tier.
Venuzdonoa and "True Power" Anos are "Countless * 100 (99+)" in the 2-B tier.

The conceptual manipulation upgrade is still in progress.

Here are the current reasons for why concept manipulation type 2 might be possible.

Order (laws and concepts) from deeper layers are uncountably greater than order from shallow layers.
If Order X was erased from a shallow layer, Order X from a deeper layer would be unaffected.
Order from a deeper layer could also be considered to somewhat transcend order from a shallow layer.
"If I had to compare it to something, it would be to the idea of plato where what we see in a lower reality is only an imperfect manifestation of the actual concept that exists in a superior layer or so."

The main argument against concept manipulation type 2 is that erasing Order X from a deeper layer likely won't affect Order X from a shallow layer.

A recently added reason would be that there exists an "Order of Order". This order creates and maintains all other orders. No other order can exist if this order doesn't exist. If this order is destroyed, all other orders is also destroyed.

If Conceptual Manipulation Type 2 is not accepted, characters with the "Post-Silver Sea" key that can manipulate *laws and concepts in a deep layer would be able to overpower 21 layers of resistance, while Venuzdonoa and "True Power" Anos would be able to overpower 100 (99+) layers of resistance to *Law Manipulation & Conceptual Manipulation Type 3. (Order = laws and concepts)

Agree: @Bernkastelll @Dereck03 @Ionliosite @Zencha9 @Cloozuma @RamadhanDayYet @Infinity_Shun
Disagree: @Ned_the_outer_god (CM2) @Everything12 (CM2) @Rikimarox2 (CM2)
Neutral: @Alphaapexnep00
Click to expand...

imZer0Null said:
Here is the current summary. There are other counter arguments to the CM2 upgrade after the summary, so be sure to go check it out.
I am fine with either CM2 or higher potency CM3, but I would appreciate it if we could get at least one or two more knowledgeable members' opinions on this before coming to a conclusion.
Click to expand...
 
So what's the final conclusion here?
Like I said, I am fine with either CM2 or higher potency CM3, but I think we need at least one more knowledgeable member's opinion on this.
 
imZer0Null said:
I think we should wait for some more knowledgeable members' opinions on this before we continue.

A summary:

The cosmology's rating seems to be accepted.

Characters with the "Post-Silver Sea" key are "Uncountable * 21" in the Low 2-C tier.
Venuzdonoa and "True Power" Anos are "Countless * 100 (99+)" in the 2-B tier.

The conceptual manipulation upgrade is still in progress.

Here are the current reasons for why concept manipulation type 2 might be possible.

Order (laws and concepts) from deeper layers are uncountably greater than order from shallow layers.
If Order X was erased from a shallow layer, Order X from a deeper layer would be unaffected.
Order from a deeper layer could also be considered to somewhat transcend order from a shallow layer.
"If I had to compare it to something, it would be to the idea of plato where what we see in a lower reality is only an imperfect manifestation of the actual concept that exists in a superior layer or so."

The main argument against concept manipulation type 2 is that erasing Order X from a deeper layer likely won't affect Order X from a shallow layer.

A recently added reason would be that there exists an "Order of Order". This order creates and maintains all other orders. No other order can exist if this order doesn't exist. If this order is destroyed, all other orders is also destroyed.

If Conceptual Manipulation Type 2 is not accepted, characters with the "Post-Silver Sea" key that can manipulate *laws and concepts in a deep layer would be able to overpower 21 layers of resistance, while Venuzdonoa and "True Power" Anos would be able to overpower 100 (99+) layers of resistance to *Law Manipulation & Conceptual Manipulation Type 3. (Order = laws and concepts)

Agree: @Bernkastelll @Dereck03 @Ionliosite @Zencha9 @Cloozuma @RamadhanDayYet @Infinity_Shun
Disagree: @Ned_the_outer_god (CM2) @Everything12 (CM2) @Rikimarox2 (CM2)
Neutral: @Alphaapexnep00
Click to expand...
@SomebodyData @Dragonmasterxyz @Celestial_Pegasus @Soldier_Blue @DarkDragonMedeus @Wokistan @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Damage3245

Would any of you be willing to help us settle this please?
 
So is the key issue here whether or not some characters can affect concepts in their entireties for the verse in question? I do not understand the principles of our Conceptual Manipulation standards particularly well, so an explanation of the key issues here would be appreciated.
 
Kind of tired here, so pardon me if I'm wrong, but the main argument for type 2 concept manip is the fact that concepts in a higher layer is stronger than concepts in lower layers. And if you destroy all the concepts in a lower layer, it doesn't affect the higher layer.

The problem here is that, the opposite is also true. If you destroy a concept in a higher layer, it doesn't affect the concepts of a lower layer. Which means they are separated, not transcendental.
 
Okay, so we are not talking about the concepts in their entireties for the entire hierarchical multiversal structure then?
 
Order = Concept

Order which originates from deeper worlds exerts more power throughout the Silver Sea than Order which originates from shallower worlds.

Each (fully-developed/evolved) world follows and abides by an overall Order which is dictated by the Lord God. For example, there is a Lord God who's Order is that of a castle that erases cause to reach the desired effect. Because their Order is a castle, everything within that world(inhabitants, weapons, etc.) possesses a castle attribute to an extent, and as such have the strengths and weaknesses of a castle. Because each Lord God of a world is entirely unique, so is the overall Order which dictates their world.

Aside from the Lord God, there are various Gods that represent/possess various other Orders within the world that uphold a certain aspect of that reality. As an example, a God of Birth makes it possible for new life to be born. Given that certain aspects and concepts of the world would not exist if not for the various Gods, and that it's confirmed that at least some of the same types of Gods exist in different worlds (The God of Destruction, God of Creation, and Heavenly Father God at the very least are confirmed to exist in other worlds), it can be presumed that all worlds possess all the same types of Gods. For example, all worlds would possess a God of Time, but the God of Time of that world would be different to the God of Time (Eugo La Raviaz) of the Militia World (The world that the main characters are from).

To summarize the three points above: Order which originates from deeper worlds (layers) exert more power throughout the Silver Sea, their is an overall Order of the world dictated by the Lord God that is unique to their world, and their are various other Orders dictated by the various other Gods under the Lord God that uphold that aspect of reality and they can be found in every world.

All the Orders I mentioned above are part of the Silver Sea as a whole, but they're still seperate from each other, connected only to their own world. That is to say, for example, a God who possess a certain Order can go outside of their world and exert their Order in the rest of the Silver Sea (how powerful it is depends on how deep the world that they are from is), but if their Order (concept) was destroyed (which imo would be from their death but that has been argued against so idk) it would only affect the world that they're from, not the rest of the Silver Sea. My point in bringing up the Lord God and other various Gods is that Order doesn't just refer to a singular thing, as there are various types of it. The statement about Order exerting it's power in deeper places only meant that, as said earlier, any Order originating from a deeper world would naturally exert more power than Order from a shallow one.

The biggest point being debated is whether or not if concepts from a deeper layer being destroyed would affect concepts from a shallower layer. Which I disagree with, because while aside from the Lord God every world has the same types of concepts (Example; Every world has a God of Creation but those Gods of Creation are totally different people), they are strictly tied to that world.
 
Okay. Thank you for the explanation. So what does that mean for our discussion here?
 
Antvasima said:
Would any of you be willing to help us settle this please?
Click to expand...
Cosmology is fine. Concept type I'm not sure of considering its all going to be changed soon.

As of now I think the layers being separate basically precludes Type 2 from being accepted.
 
Well, it seems that the conclusions are already here, although I still agree with type 2, but if higher potency type 3 its accepted its ok tho
 
AncientKing95 said:
All the Orders I mentioned above are part of the Silver Sea as a whole, but they're still separate from each other, connected only to their own world. That is to say, for example, a God who possess a certain Order can go outside of their world and exert their Order in the rest of the Silver Sea (how powerful it is depends on how deep the world that they are from is), but if their Order (concept) was destroyed (which imo would be from their death but that has been argued against so idk) it would only affect the world that they're from, not the rest of the Silver Sea. My point in bringing up the Lord God and other various Gods is that Order doesn't just refer to a singular thing, as there are various types of it. The statement about Order exerting it's power in deeper places only meant that, as said earlier, any Order originating from a deeper world would naturally exert more power than Order from a shallow one.
Click to expand...
Order isn't separate, but a singular thing that exists across the entire Silver Sea.
Gods control order, and while there are various gods who control the same singular order, their control is limited to their own world. They have "abilities" which are likely personal manifestations of their order. Since order exists across the entire Silver Sea, they can use these abilities outside of their own world. Destroying a god wouldn't destroy their order, but it would mean they can no longer control that order in their world, causing it to be disturbed. Destroying order in one world, and it not affecting another world is because the order wasn't completely destroyed, but only the part that encompassed that world was destroyed.
Order in a deeper layer has an uncountably greater affect on reality than order in shallow layer.
I don't want to debate you on this again, since I've already disproved your argument about there being "alike orders" in the Silver Sea, but I wanted to correct this so that newcomers wouldn't be misinformed.
 
Last edited:
Thanks for everyone's input on this. Since the amount of people who agree and the amount of people who disagree with the concept manipulation type 2 upgrade are roughly equal, the CM2 upgrade is not accepted.
 
Last edited:
A summary:

The cosmology's rating is accepted.

Characters with the "Post-Silver Sea" key are "Uncountable * 21" in the Low 2-C tier.
Venuzdonoa and "True Power" Anos are "Countless * 100 (99+)" in the 2-B tier.

The Conceptual Manipulation Type 2 upgrade is not accepted.
Certain characters now gain higher potency Law Manipulation & Conceptual Manipulation Type 3.

(Order = Laws & Concepts)
Since order in a deeper layer has an uncountably greater affect on reality than order in shallow layer, characters with the "Post-Silver Sea" key that can manipulate laws and concepts in a deep layer would be able to overpower 21 layers of resistance, while Venuzdonoa and "True Power" Anos would be able to overpower 100 (99+) layers of resistance to Law Manipulation & Conceptual Manipulation Type 3.

Is this agreeable?
 
the resistance layer is ok for me now and just noting that silver sea orders is linked each other

and we possibly get cm2 by naousgalia if that's possible
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

CloverDragon03
  • Locked
Maou Gakuin no Futekigousha CRT: Addressing Venuzdonoa’s “Logic Manipulation”
3 4 5
Replies
175
Views
12K
UchihaSlayer96
UchihaSlayer96
Astral_Trinity439
Upgrade for Law Manipulation Layers for Skills and Magic [TenSura]
Replies
19
Views
2K
Astral_Trinity439
Astral_Trinity439
  • Locked
MGnF Explanation Page Revision
2 3
Replies
87
Views
3K
Dereck03
Dereck03
BreezeHM
[Martial Peak] Hax Layer CRT
Replies
12
Views
2K
Elizhaa
Elizhaa
Dereck03
  • Locked
Anos' unexpected upgrade.
Replies
33
Views
6K
Dereck03
Dereck03
Back
Top