Changing the Versus Thread One-Shot Gap

[Mr. Bambu]

As I pointed out earlier, you can KO people of equal strength with one blow if it lands in the right spot, so simply being able to defeat/incapacitate someone in one blow is not sufficient.

Why is no-one acknowledging that? We've been given a number for an instant kill (13x), and people are still arguing over whether one-shot should be changed to incap at 5x or 7.5x when that can be done at 1x. What the hell is everyone doing?

Why are y'all sticking so hard to the logic of "Peak humans one-shot normal humans" when that's something we literally made up on a dime a few years ago since we just needed to pull a number from somewhere, and which I've demonstrated to not be true in any meaningful way?

Even 13x presumes a particular spot on the body (the skull), no? Do we presume creatures without heads, or who can survive without their head, to be immune to one-shot logic? We're all aware that it's arbitrary, but it seems every value comes from more or less non-exhaustive explanations.

 

[DMUA]

Honestly thinking about it I might prefer the 13x gap, mostly because the calc isn't actually punching through the skull, it's fragmenting it. Cracking someone's skull is certainly in the bounds of knocking them out and potentially becoming fatal if not addressed, and it's a bit more concrete than "well someone who's really well trained at boxing is probably going to 9/10 knock a guy out by punching them once" when some IRL one-shots are just two mostly even fighters hitting each other at a particularly lucky time/spot

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Honestly thinking about it I might prefer the 13x gap, mostly because the calc isn't actually punching through the skull, it's fragmenting it. Cracking someone's skull is certainly in the bounds of knocking them out and potentially becoming fatal if not addressed, and it's a bit more concrete than "well someone who's really well trained at boxing is probably going to 9/10 knock a guy out by punching them once" when some IRL one-shots are just two mostly even fighters hitting each other at a particularly lucky time/spot

I agree I'd rather have math, but again we're just sort of assuming a lot about the creature being hit in question, and I don't think we have a definite way of accounting for everything. If I had to go for a compromise at gunpoint, I'd probably choose the 13x thing, but I consider just sticking with what we have at 7.5x to be more ideal if we're being arbitrary anyways.

 

[TheRustyOne]

I'm perfectly alright with going for a one hit kill at 13.975x or 14x for the sake of rounding it up. But sticking to tradition would mean changing the gap to 5x.

Technically there is no AP gap we can make that'll truly kill every kind of opponent no matter what, the same is true for 7.5x or the 5x gap in general.

If someone is special in anyway, there is a vastly higher chance they won't go down. Such has having regeneration, being far larger/smaller, or any other abilities. AOE is another reasoning as well, since it's possible for a Tier 2 character's punch to not kill a Tier 7 character if they lack the AOE to destroy their whole body.

This gap is only really important when someone lacks anything special. That's why the one shot page talks about human size characters being hit in a certain area.

Since we're well aware that this isn't absolute and we should use basic common sense. If someone doesn't have a humanoid physiology, that means they're special and are possibly not affected by this gap all that much depending on their abilities.

 

[DMUA]

(Even then, if someone hits you in the ribcage with skull-shattering force that's still absolutely going to ruin your day and it's much rarer to have an alien that just completely lacks a center mass to hit like that)

(Also, yeah, messed it up, it was a 14x gap but either way it's off a person's strength compared to the strength required to fracture their skull)

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I'm perfectly alright with going for a one hit kill at 13.975x or 14x for the sake of rounding it up. But sticking to tradition would mean changing the gap to 5x.

Technically there is no AP gap we can make that'll truly kill every kind of opponent no matter what, the same is true for 7.5x or the 5x gap in general.

If someone is special in anyway, there is a vastly higher chance they won't go down. Such has having regeneration, being far larger/smaller, or any other abilities. AOE is another reasoning as well, since it's possible for a Tier 2 character's punch to not kill a Tier 7 character if they lack the AOE to destroy their whole body.

This gap is only really important when someone lacks anything special. That's why the one shot page talks about human size characters being hit in a certain area.

Since we're well aware that this isn't absolute and we should use basic common sense. If someone doesn't have a humanoid physiology, that means they're special and are possibly not affected by this gap all that much depending on their abilities.

The tradition being 7.5x is perfectly fine, you're just focusing on the reason for the tradition over the result. 7.5x is an acceptable value. I don't get why you're latching to this point so vehemently.

 

[TheRustyOne]

The tradition being 7.5x is perfectly fine, you're just focusing on the reason for the tradition over the result. 7.5x is an acceptable value. I don't get why you're latching to this point so vehemently.

Because I don't see a reason for 7.5x being fine, as the reason for it has now changed to 5x. I find your logic to be strange just like how you see mine as strange. Especially when you have yet to provide a reason for it to be 7.5x, as I've been waiting for it since you admit that the text should be changed.

It's rather confusing, although I'm not latching on to a point "vehemently", we just have different opinions that don't agree with each other.

I find this response to be off-putting for me, so I suspect I accidently offended you. Once again I'll apologize, I'm not the best at reading a situation but it's not my intention to be rude to you. I don't want you to misunderstand my intention, I'm just saying what I believe is correct.

But like I said, I'm fine with using the 14x gap as well. The tradition was not a 7.5x gap, it was the gap between Human level and Street level, and that was 7.5x.

 

[Agnaa]

Even 13x presumes a particular spot on the body (the skull), no? Do we presume creatures without heads, or who can survive without their head, to be immune to one-shot logic? We're all aware that it's arbitrary, but it seems every value comes from more or less non-exhaustive explanations.

I'd expect "fragmenting a skull" to also be generally applicable to "fragmenting a less-than-skull-sized body part" (i.e. punching through to someone's heart).

If a character does actually have no single vital organs, then this logic wouldn't be workable, but at that point no multiplier would be, since some characters can get arbitrarily large.

I think it keeps well with the idea of "one-shotting". Even if it fails for non-humans, we can only write up something reasonable for humans anyway.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Because I don't see a reason for 7.5x being fine, as the reason for it has now changed to 5x. I find your logic to be strange just like how you see mine as strange. Especially when you have yet to provide a reason for it to be 7.5x, as I've been waiting for it since you admit that the text should be changed.

It's rather confusing, although I'm not latching on to a point "vehemently", we just have different opinions that don't agree with each other.

I find this response to be off-putting for me, so I suspect I accidently offended you. Once again I'll apologize, I'm not the best at reading a situation but it's not my intention to be rude to you. I don't want you to misunderstand my intention, I'm just saying what I believe is correct.

But like I said, I'm fine with using the 14x gap as well. The tradition was not a 7.5x gap, it was the gap between Human level and Street level, and that was 7.5x.

I at least comprehend yours though. Let me try to simplify this for you.

Flashlight: I think we should keep it at 7.5x because that's what it is already.

You: But the reason for that 7.5x, even if it's wrong, would make it 5x.

Me: Yes, but if we're already wrong, it is simpler to keep it at 7.5x and not change the status quo than to change it to 5x on equally flawed logic.

Does that track? I presume I'm incoherent 99% of the time so I'm hoping there's sense in that.

I'd expect "fragmenting a skull" to also be generally applicable to "fragmenting a less-than-skull-sized body part" (i.e. punching through to someone's heart).

If a character does actually have no single vital organs, then this logic wouldn't be workable, but at that point no multiplier would be, since some characters can get arbitrarily large.

I think it keeps well with the idea of "one-shotting". Even if it fails for non-humans, we can only write up something reasonable for humans anyway.

Could be, probably would be, and like I said if we must compromise it's begrudgingly acceptable. My stance has always been that the status quo is generally preferable unless proven adequately wrong and also given a more established solution. The status quo is wrong, here, but I don't think there's actually going to be a universally good solution. Yours isn't the worst, from a certain angle it works.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Is this still needing input?

 

[Greatsage13th]

Is this still needing input?

Yes

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

@TheRustyOne @Agnaa @Mr._Bambu Can we wrap this up?

 

[TheRustyOne]

I don't believe I have anything else to add, I'd rather avoid talking in circles.

There are three choices right now.

1. Keep the same 7.5x gap. We'll have to come up with reasoning on why we're using that number.

2. Changing it to a 5x gap. The 7.5x gap came from the gap between baseline Human level (60 Joules) and Street level (300 Joules), which is currently a 5x gap.

3. Changing it to a 14x gap. This is the energy needed to fragment a human skull compared to baseline Human level.

Regardless of what is chosen the One-Shot page needs to be edited in some way. I'm curious, does the One-Shot pages speak about a "one hit kill" or a one hit knockout? I believe one hit kill would be better, both rely on many factors but knocking someone out in one hit is more iffy than just killing them.

Considering the current page mentions hitting a person with human physiology in the torso, I'm assuming this is meant to be one hit kill.

I'm alright with a 14x gap since this is a pretty safe bet at being a one-shot, assuming the above scenario. Edit: Not okay with the 14x gap anymore.

I'm alright with making it 5x, since a baseline Street level character taking out a baseline Human level character in one shot is reasonable.

I'm not a fan of keeping the 7.5x gap, the arguments I've read for keeping it have not convinced me otherwise.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I don't believe I have anything else to add, I'd rather avoid talking in circles.

There are three choices right now.

1. Keep the same 7.5x gap. We'll have to come up with reasoning on why we're using that number.

2. Changing it to a 5x gap. The 7.5x gap came from the gap between baseline Human level (60 Joules) and Street level (300 Joules), which is currently a 5x gap.

3. Changing it to a 14x gap. This is the energy needed to fragment a human skull compared to baseline Human level.

Regardless of what is chosen the One-Shot page needs to be edited in some way. I'm curious, does the One-Shot pages speak about a "one hit kill" or a one hit knockout? I believe one hit kill would be better, both rely on many factors but knocking someone out in one hit is more iffy than just killing them.

Considering the current page mentions hitting a person with human physiology in the torso, I'm assuming this is meant to be one hit kill.

I'm alright with a 14x gap since this is a pretty safe bet at being a one-shot, assuming the above scenario.

I'm not against making it 5x, since a baseline Street level character taking out a baseline Human level character in one shot sounds alright.

I'm not a fan of keeping the 7.5x gap, the arguments I've read for keeping it have not convinced me otherwise.

In that case, unless there's more to be said, I believe we should put this up to a vote. I really do want this topic settled, given how it's over a year old, though I have no stake in this fight.
@Antvasima @AKM sama @DontTalkDT @DarkDragonMedeus @Mr._Bambu @Celestial_Pegasus @Andytrenom @Wokistan @Ultima_Reality @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @GyroNutz @Firestorm808 @Everything12 @Maverick_Zero_X @Crabwhale @Just_a_Random_Butler @Agnaa @DarkGrath Based on the arguments given, which do you prefer between these three options?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Of those three options, I still think the 5x gap is reasonable. You don't need to kill an opponent to win and simply knocking them out is enough. Also, 7.5x is still based on outdated reasoning, and not sure what type of reasoning could be used to keep that as a justification. But changing it to 5x just sounds like the simplest and easiest solutions that doesn't rely on outdated formulas, doesn't require digging for a secondary study, or doesn't require redefining the definition of oneshot.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

14x has a non-arbitrary reason to be used. 7.5x is more easily used (it has been the accepted value for some time).

I would accept either one. 5x is entirely arbitrary.

 

[Propellus]

Mines still hasn't changed, it doesn't need to be altered

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Of those three options, I still think the 5x gap is reasonable. You don't need to kill an opponent to win and simply knocking them out is enough. Also, 7.5x is still based on outdated reasoning, and not sure what type of reasoning could be used to keep that as a justification. But changing it to 5x just sounds like the simplest and easiest solutions that doesn't rely on outdated formulas, doesn't require digging for a secondary study, or doesn't require redefining the definition of oneshot.

14x has a non-arbitrary reason to be used. 7.5x is more easily used (it has been the accepted value for some time).

I would accept either one. 5x is entirely arbitrary.

Mines still hasn't changed, it doesn't need to be altered

Okay. Tagging is broken, so I'll ping five people at a time.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I don't believe I have anything else to add, I'd rather avoid talking in circles.

There are three choices right now.

1. Keep the same 7.5x gap. We'll have to come up with reasoning on why we're using that number.

2. Changing it to a 5x gap. The 7.5x gap came from the gap between baseline Human level (60 Joules) and Street level (300 Joules), which is currently a 5x gap.

3. Changing it to a 14x gap. This is the energy needed to fragment a human skull compared to baseline Human level.

Regardless of what is chosen the One-Shot page needs to be edited in some way. I'm curious, does the One-Shot pages speak about a "one hit kill" or a one hit knockout? I believe one hit kill would be better, both rely on many factors but knocking someone out in one hit is more iffy than just killing them.

Considering the current page mentions hitting a person with human physiology in the torso, I'm assuming this is meant to be one hit kill.

I'm alright with a 14x gap since this is a pretty safe bet at being a one-shot, assuming the above scenario.

I'm not against making it 5x, since a baseline Street level character taking out a baseline Human level character in one shot sounds alright.

I'm not a fan of keeping the 7.5x gap, the arguments I've read for keeping it have not convinced me otherwise.

@Celestial_Pegasus @Andytrenom @Wokistan @Ultima_Reality @Elizhaa Which of these three options do you prefer?

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I don't believe I have anything else to add, I'd rather avoid talking in circles.

There are three choices right now.

1. Keep the same 7.5x gap. We'll have to come up with reasoning on why we're using that number.

2. Changing it to a 5x gap. The 7.5x gap came from the gap between baseline Human level (60 Joules) and Street level (300 Joules), which is currently a 5x gap.

3. Changing it to a 14x gap. This is the energy needed to fragment a human skull compared to baseline Human level.

Regardless of what is chosen the One-Shot page needs to be edited in some way. I'm curious, does the One-Shot pages speak about a "one hit kill" or a one hit knockout? I believe one hit kill would be better, both rely on many factors but knocking someone out in one hit is more iffy than just killing them.

Considering the current page mentions hitting a person with human physiology in the torso, I'm assuming this is meant to be one hit kill.

I'm alright with a 14x gap since this is a pretty safe bet at being a one-shot, assuming the above scenario.

I'm not against making it 5x, since a baseline Street level character taking out a baseline Human level character in one shot sounds alright.

I'm not a fan of keeping the 7.5x gap, the arguments I've read for keeping it have not convinced me otherwise.

@Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack Which of these three options do you prefer?

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I don't believe I have anything else to add, I'd rather avoid talking in circles.

There are three choices right now.

1. Keep the same 7.5x gap. We'll have to come up with reasoning on why we're using that number.

2. Changing it to a 5x gap. The 7.5x gap came from the gap between baseline Human level (60 Joules) and Street level (300 Joules), which is currently a 5x gap.

3. Changing it to a 14x gap. This is the energy needed to fragment a human skull compared to baseline Human level.

Regardless of what is chosen the One-Shot page needs to be edited in some way. I'm curious, does the One-Shot pages speak about a "one hit kill" or a one hit knockout? I believe one hit kill would be better, both rely on many factors but knocking someone out in one hit is more iffy than just killing them.

Considering the current page mentions hitting a person with human physiology in the torso, I'm assuming this is meant to be one hit kill.

I'm alright with a 14x gap since this is a pretty safe bet at being a one-shot, assuming the above scenario.

I'm not against making it 5x, since a baseline Street level character taking out a baseline Human level character in one shot sounds alright.

I'm not a fan of keeping the 7.5x gap, the arguments I've read for keeping it have not convinced me otherwise.

@Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @GyroNutz Which of these three options do you prefer?

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I don't believe I have anything else to add, I'd rather avoid talking in circles.

There are three choices right now.

1. Keep the same 7.5x gap. We'll have to come up with reasoning on why we're using that number.

2. Changing it to a 5x gap. The 7.5x gap came from the gap between baseline Human level (60 Joules) and Street level (300 Joules), which is currently a 5x gap.

3. Changing it to a 14x gap. This is the energy needed to fragment a human skull compared to baseline Human level.

Regardless of what is chosen the One-Shot page needs to be edited in some way. I'm curious, does the One-Shot pages speak about a "one hit kill" or a one hit knockout? I believe one hit kill would be better, both rely on many factors but knocking someone out in one hit is more iffy than just killing them.

Considering the current page mentions hitting a person with human physiology in the torso, I'm assuming this is meant to be one hit kill.

I'm alright with a 14x gap since this is a pretty safe bet at being a one-shot, assuming the above scenario.

I'm not against making it 5x, since a baseline Street level character taking out a baseline Human level character in one shot sounds alright.

I'm not a fan of keeping the 7.5x gap, the arguments I've read for keeping it have not convinced me otherwise.

@Firestorm808 @Everything12 @Maverick_Zero_X @Crabwhale @Just_a_Random_Butler Which of these three options do you prefer?

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I don't believe I have anything else to add, I'd rather avoid talking in circles.

There are three choices right now.

1. Keep the same 7.5x gap. We'll have to come up with reasoning on why we're using that number.

2. Changing it to a 5x gap. The 7.5x gap came from the gap between baseline Human level (60 Joules) and Street level (300 Joules), which is currently a 5x gap.

3. Changing it to a 14x gap. This is the energy needed to fragment a human skull compared to baseline Human level.

Regardless of what is chosen the One-Shot page needs to be edited in some way. I'm curious, does the One-Shot pages speak about a "one hit kill" or a one hit knockout? I believe one hit kill would be better, both rely on many factors but knocking someone out in one hit is more iffy than just killing them.

Considering the current page mentions hitting a person with human physiology in the torso, I'm assuming this is meant to be one hit kill.

I'm alright with a 14x gap since this is a pretty safe bet at being a one-shot, assuming the above scenario.

I'm not against making it 5x, since a baseline Street level character taking out a baseline Human level character in one shot sounds alright.

I'm not a fan of keeping the 7.5x gap, the arguments I've read for keeping it have not convinced me otherwise.

@Antvasima @AKM sama @DontTalkDT @Agnaa @DarkGrath Which of these three options do you prefer?

 

[Qawsedf234]

@Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack Which of these three options do you prefer?

For realistic tiers 5x is probably fine (plenty of IRL examples of a martial artist decking someone in one hit), but 14x is probably an overall safer bet for cross-site stuff.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

For realistic tiers 5x is probably fine (plenty of IRL examples of a martial artist decking someone in one hit), but 14x is probably an overall safer bet for cross-site stuff.

So what are you voting for?

 

[Qawsedf234]

14x like I said.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

14x like I said.

I updated the tally.

 

[Propellus]

@Antvasima @AKM sama @DontTalkDT @Agnaa @DarkGrath Which of these three options do you prefer?

Try not to multi-post please.

But my opinion never changed saying this as a Thread Moderator now.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Try not to multi-post please.

But my opinion never changed saying this as a Thread Moderator now.

I was multi-posting because pings were broken due to a bug and everyone after the fifth person tagged wouldn't get notified, so I pinged everyone five at a time.

 

[DMUA]

I was for the 14x gap

 

[KLOL506]

I am for the 5x gap (Since the 7.5x gap stemmed solely from the previous ends of Human level and Street level, which have since been revised), and personally, I think the gap should be significantly lower than that, considering the number of points in a human body that don't need to be struck hard enough to critically injure (Just enough to put them out of commission and leave them at death's door without treatment) or kill a person.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I was for the 14x gap

I am for the 5x gap (Since the 7.5x gap stemmed solely from the previous ends of Human level and Street level, which have since been revised), and personally, I think the gap should be significantly lower than that, considering the number of points in a human body that don't need to be struck hard enough to critically injure (Just enough to put them out of commission and leave them at death's door without treatment) or kill a person.

I updated the tally.

 

[Elizhaa]

I think the 14x gap.

 

[DarkGrath]

I would prefer the 14x gap.

Striking a human body with a certain amount of energy could potentially be a one-shot, or not a one-shot, depending on where it hits. In Versus Debates, we usually don't think of one-shots in this way outside of specific circumstances - when we say that one character can one-shot another, we usually mean them hitting the opponent at all would reasonably kill them in one strike. This goes especially so when we are thinking of characters who do not have traditional human physiology, and therefore do not have the same easily recognisable weak/strong points on their body.

By the standards we have outlined, a baseline Street Level character could surely kill a baseline human in one good strike, if that strike were placed in the right location. But I think a better analogue for the way we typically treat one-shots in debates would be a strike that would reasonably kill a baseline human if it struck them anywhere, and I believe the energy of skull fragmentation is a safer bet for this analogue.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I think the 14x gap.

I would prefer the 14x gap.

Striking a human body with a certain amount of energy could potentially be a one-shot, or not a one-shot, depending on where it hits. In Versus Debates, we usually don't think of one-shots in this way outside of specific circumstances - when we say that one character can one-shot another, we usually mean them hitting the opponent at all would reasonably kill them in one strike. This goes especially so when we are thinking of characters who do not have traditional human physiology, and therefore do not have the same easily recognisable weak/strong points on their body.

By the standards we have outlined, a baseline Street Level character could surely kill a baseline human in one good strike, if that strike were placed in the right location. But I think a better analogue for the way we typically treat one-shots in debates would be a strike that would reasonably kill a baseline human if it struck them anywhere, and I believe the energy of skull fragmentation is a safer bet for this analogue.

I updated the tally.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Prefer 5x over 14x but the later is safer, you can put me down for either of those two I guess.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Prefer 5x over 14x but the later is safer, you can put me down for either of those two I guess.

Done.

 

[Psychomaster35]

As long as the gap doesn’t stay at 7.5x, I’m personally fine with either 5x or 14x

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

As long as the gap doesn’t stay at 7.5x, I’m personally fine with either 5x or 14x

Counted.