Changing the Versus Thread One-Shot Gap

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Ant told me pings were fixed, so I'll try tagging everyone who hasn't responded again.
@Antvasima @AKM sama @DontTalkDT @Celestial_Pegasus @Andytrenom @Wokistan @Ultima_Reality @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @GyroNutz @Firestorm808 @Everything12 @Maverick_Zero_X @Crabwhale @Just_a_Random_Butler @Agnaa Which of these three options do you find most reasonable?

There are three choices right now.

1. Keep the same 7.5x gap. We'll have to come up with reasoning on why we're using that number.

2. Changing it to a 5x gap. The 7.5x gap came from the gap between baseline Human level (60 Joules) and Street level (300 Joules), which is currently a 5x gap.

3. Changing it to a 14x gap. This is the energy needed to fragment a human skull compared to baseline Human level.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I’m for the 14x gap

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I’m for the 14x gap

Noted.

 

[Antvasima]

I don't believe I have anything else to add, I'd rather avoid talking in circles.

There are three choices right now.

1. Keep the same 7.5x gap. We'll have to come up with reasoning on why we're using that number.

2. Changing it to a 5x gap. The 7.5x gap came from the gap between baseline Human level (60 Joules) and Street level (300 Joules), which is currently a 5x gap.

3. Changing it to a 14x gap. This is the energy needed to fragment a human skull compared to baseline Human level.

Regardless of what is chosen the One-Shot page needs to be edited in some way. I'm curious, does the One-Shot pages speak about a "one hit kill" or a one hit knockout? I believe one hit kill would be better, both rely on many factors but knocking someone out in one hit is more iffy than just killing them.

Considering the current page mentions hitting a person with human physiology in the torso, I'm assuming this is meant to be one hit kill.

I'm alright with a 14x gap since this is a pretty safe bet at being a one-shot, assuming the above scenario.

I'm not against making it 5x, since a baseline Street level character taking out a baseline Human level character in one shot sounds alright.

I'm not a fan of keeping the 7.5x gap, the arguments I've read for keeping it have not convinced me otherwise.

The 14x gap seems to make sense to me in that case.

 

[Antvasima]

I don't believe I have anything else to add, I'd rather avoid talking in circles.

There are three choices right now.

1. Keep the same 7.5x gap. We'll have to come up with reasoning on why we're using that number.

2. Changing it to a 5x gap. The 7.5x gap came from the gap between baseline Human level (60 Joules) and Street level (300 Joules), which is currently a 5x gap.

3. Changing it to a 14x gap. This is the energy needed to fragment a human skull compared to baseline Human level.

Regardless of what is chosen the One-Shot page needs to be edited in some way. I'm curious, does the One-Shot pages speak about a "one hit kill" or a one hit knockout? I believe one hit kill would be better, both rely on many factors but knocking someone out in one hit is more iffy than just killing them.

Considering the current page mentions hitting a person with human physiology in the torso, I'm assuming this is meant to be one hit kill.

I'm alright with a 14x gap since this is a pretty safe bet at being a one-shot, assuming the above scenario.

I'm not against making it 5x, since a baseline Street level character taking out a baseline Human level character in one shot sounds alright.

I'm not a fan of keeping the 7.5x gap, the arguments I've read for keeping it have not convinced me otherwise.

@DontTalkDT

What do you think? Would the 14x gap be acceptable to you?

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

The 14x gap seems to make sense to me in that case.

Thank you. I have counted your vote.

 

[Crabwhale]

I'm neutral on this because even the one shot gaps with justifications are largely arbitrary numbers.

In real life someone even having twice or thrice the punching power of someone else can be enough to score an immediate one shot. It depends on where it lands though. Of course, the mechanics of headshots, livershots, different punches and mechanical advantages doesn't really come up in VS matches since it's like, too complicated for most scenarios.

So whether you make the value 5 times, 7 times, 3 times, 9 times, or 15 times, it doesn't really matter to me.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I'm neutral on this because even the one shot gaps with justifications are largely arbitrary numbers.

In real life someone even having twice or thrice the punching power of someone else can be enough to score an immediate one shot. It depends on where it lands though. Of course, the mechanics of headshots, livershots, different punches and mechanical advantages doesn't really come up in VS matches since it's like, too complicated for most scenarios.

So whether you make the value 5 times, 7 times, 3 times, 9 times, or 15 times, it doesn't really matter to me.

Okay, I won't count your vote then.

 

[FinePoint]

For the most part I share Crabwhale's opinion, but for the sake of being practical I think 14x is reasonable.
(Though, since it's highly arbitrary anyways, I would prefer 15x just for the neatness of it.)

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

For the most part I share Crabwhale's opinion, but for the sake of being practical I think 14x is reasonable.
Though, since it's highly arbitrary anyways, I would prefer 15x just for the neatness of it.

I counted you for 14x.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Change to 5X:

I'm for the 5x Gap

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I'm for the 5x Gap

Counted.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Wait, why am I in 7.5x, I voted option 2

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Wait, why am I in 7.5x, I voted option 2

Sorry, corrected.

 

[Lonkitt]

14 is like, way too high IMO. 5 times is the way to go and I can’t be convinced otherwise

 

[KingTempest]

Swing me to the 5x

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

14 is like, way too high IMO. 5 times is the way to go and I can’t be convinced otherwise

Noted.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Swing me to the 5x

Okay.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

For the most part I share Crabwhale's opinion, but for the sake of being practical I think 14x is reasonable.
(Though, since it's highly arbitrary anyways, I would prefer 15x just for the neatness of it.)

I'm for the 5x Gap

14 is like, way too high IMO. 5 times is the way to go and I can’t be convinced otherwise

Swing me to the 5x

Do, however, note that only Administrators and Bureaucrats have official voting rights in wiki policy revisions.

• In wiki policy revision threads, bureaucrats have both voting and veto rights. Administrators also have voting rights, and all staff members are welcome to comment in these threads, regardless of whether they have evaluation rights or not.

 

[KingTempest]

Should remove all the names that ain't admins or bureaucrats then

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Should remove all the names that ain't admins or bureaucrats then

I'm listing them for completeness's sake.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

This is more so a calculation policy, so technically calc group members input should matter.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

This is more so a calculation policy, so technically calc group members input should matter.

Are versus threads part of calculations? If so, I'd like to specify that in our rules.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

This is more so a calculation policy, so technically calc group members input should matter.

No it isn't, not really.

I dislike the policy of restricting voting to admins only of course, but also people seem to be voting on which number is prettier, so.

 

[Propellus]

Restricting votes to admins only for this? That doesn't seem fair

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

No it isn't, not really.

I dislike the policy of restricting voting to admins only of course, but also people seem to be voting on which number is prettier, so.

But we're deciding which one would make more sense from a reliable calculation gap; baseline from 10-B and baseline from 9-C. With the alternative being to find a study for the energy required to knock out an average human with a single punch.

 

[Lonkitt]

It makes absolute sense to count calc member input here. This one-shot gap is literally based on the numbers that make up our system

 

[SeijiSetto]

i am of the sentiment that a hardcoded number is unnecessary because most scenarios can be reasoned with common sense to assume the kind of damage that'll be done with a given AP gap
setting a hard value'll get you things like "oh it's only 4.6x it's not a oneshot" and similar

if i had to pick one though it would be 5x

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

i am of the sentiment that a hardcoded number is unnecessary because most scenarios can be reasoned with common sense to assume the kind of damage that'll be done with a given AP gap
setting a hard value'll get you things like "oh it's only 4.6x it's not a oneshot" and similar

if i had to pick one though it would be 5x

Noted.

 

[Phoenks]

What is the gap for a character to no longer be capable of damaging the other person?

And can we say that those with high-levels of tenacity/pain tolerance/will power can continue fighting even after being hit with an attack above the one-shot value, assuming it isn't enough to break every bone in their body or something?

And on that note, wouldn't it be more useful to give a list of gaps, and what they would entail? I think that would be a lot more useful.

For example, you could have:

5x Gap: The gap between a normal human's punch and peak human's punch. Well-placed attacks could instantly knock-out the opponent.
14x Gap: The gap between a normal human's punch and the energy required to shatter human bone.
??? Gap: The gap between a normal human's punch and the energy required to turn a human into paste.

(Don't pay much mind to the specifics. It's the concept that matters. The idea of having these multiple gaps that give insight as to how much they matter in a matchup)

Things like that. For VS matches, it would be infinitely easier to quantify how much of a gap a character would be able to withstand, given their tenacity, regeneration, immortality, and other abilities.

Having one standard value just makes things difficult.

 

[BoastJr]

snip

Thats a good idea. It makes alot of sense if we just make a One Shot page incase users aren't clear about what counts as knock out or kills.

 

[Greatsage13th]

And on that note, wouldn't it be more useful to give a list of gaps, and what they would entail? I think that would be a lot more useful.

For example, you could have:

5x Gap: The gap between a normal human's punch and peak human's punch. Well-placed attacks could instantly knock-out the opponent.
14x Gap: The gap between a normal human's punch and the energy required to shatter human bone.
??? Gap: The gap between a normal human's punch and the energy required to turn a human into paste.

That one had a ludicrous over 2000x gap

 

[Mr. Bambu]

It makes absolute sense to count calc member input here. This one-shot gap is literally based on the numbers that make up our system

To be clear.

Yeah, I agree, to an extent.

But this is not a calc discussion, so no.

The fact that it includes [NUMBERS] is not the deciding factor. This has very little to do with actual calculations. We will not suddenly be using a 14x multiplier when someone instant kills someone else to justify a higher tier. There is... literally no interfacing with calculation matters, I do not understand how you came to that conclusion.

 

[Lonkitt]

To be clear.

Yeah, I agree, to an extent.

But this is not a calc discussion, so no.

The fact that it includes [NUMBERS] is not the deciding factor. This has very little to do with actual calculations. We will not suddenly be using a 14x multiplier when someone instant kills someone else to justify a higher tier. There is... literally no interfacing with calculation matters, I do not understand how you came to that conclusion.

Regardless of what you think, I think it feels moot to list the input of Thread Mods and Calc Members if we just….don't have any input in the end. Like no offence, but why even call us in if only two types of mods have priority votes here?

 

[Armorchompy]

14x seems like a massively generous high-ball. I would find it pretty ridiculous if a character was matched up against someone 10x weaker and people refused to accept that the former could easily kill them with one strike.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Regardless of what you think, I think it feels useless moot to list the input of Thread Mods and Calc Members if we just….don't have any input in the end. Like no offence, but why even call us in if only two types of mods have priority votes here?

For the record, I only ever tagged Administrators and Bureaucrats. I listed everyone who voted out of courtesy, but only people with voting rights are bolded.

 

[Lonkitt]

For the record, I only ever tagged Administrators and Bureaucrats. I listed everyone who voted out of courtesy, but only people with voting rights are bolded.

Okay. So again I ask. Why even call us? Or list us? Courtesy means nothing if the bolded names are gonna be favoured

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Okay. So again I ask. Why even call us? Courtesy means nothing if the bolded names are gonna be favoured

I listed your names so staff can see which option has the most support among non-voting members in case they want to account for that when voting.

 

[Lonkitt]

14x seems like a massively generous high-ball. I would find it pretty ridiculous if a character was matched up against someone 10x weaker and they refused to accept that the former could easily kill them with one strike.

My thoughts exactly. I find it fairly ridiculous to assume somebody with a 10x advantage or even something like 8x couldn’t one shot the other opponent

Like imagine you have somebody with a whopping 13 times advantage, but because it’s not 14, it’s not a one shot. I’m sorry, that’s just not accurate

 

[Armorchompy]

I understand that my vote doesn't really count but either do 7.5 or 5. Latter would be better but I get why you wouldn't. Don't do 14 that's really stupid.