Changing the Versus Thread One-Shot Gap

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I understand that my vote doesn't really count but either do 7.5 or 5. Latter would be better but I get why you wouldn't. Don't do 14 that's really stupid.

Noted.

 

[TheRustyOne]

I do hope other that people are aware of this, but common sense should rule over anything else. A 3x gap between two people of equal skill and no special abilities is a stomp, since they have a zero chance beating someone who is 3x stronger than them. But even a 100x gap can be overcome if the character has certain ability/hax.

Personally, I agree that a hard value for one shotting is unnecessary and people should have the sense to discuss if a fight is a stomp or not. While I said I'm fine with 14x or 5x, I really wasn't expecting the 14x results to get any attraction due to how absurdly high it was. A lower number like 5x would be better than using 14x.

Also, this shouldn't change any matches whatsoever regardless of what is chosen. I have no intentions for that to be the case, since I've never once saw this number as an absolute that must be followed. If a 7.5x gap was considered to be unfair, it'd still be unfair even if the one shot gap became 14x.

Nor would a 5x gap limit any match ups at all. These one shot value should never be used as an excuse to close a versus thread without proper discussion. Unfortunately, people like that try to do it all the time. They see a 7.5x gap and instantly try to close a match up and ignore any discussion.

While in the reverse, they'll say a gap of 6x is fair because it isn't a one shot per our rules. Thankfully I personally haven't run into as much, but I'd like for it to be known.

My vote may not matter here, but I'd still like it to be known that right now I much prefer the 5x value and would like to be removed from the 14x counts. My only true issue in this entire discussion is keeping the current 7.5x value which has zero reason to be there as I write this.

7.5x used to be based on the gap between Streel level and Human level, but that is now a 5x gap. It's simple and requires little change to the page in its current state. Honestly, this entire discussion has gone on far longer than it should have. I regret bringing up the 14x value in the first place.

 

[Armorchompy]

I've seen people claim things like "2x isn't a big gap" which is insane, you'd be surprised at how much having the (already very big) one-shot gap we have affects people's perception.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

My vote may not matter here, but I'd still like it to be known that right now I much prefer the 5x value and would like to be removed from the 14x counts. My only true issue in this entire discussion is keeping the current 7.5x value which has zero reason to be there as I write this.

Done.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Okay. People seem to be trying to speak in favor of a stomp value as opposed to a one-shot value, and are trying to make the one-shot value lower in the face of evidence to make it more in-line with what they feel the stomp value should be.

This is messed up, so don't do that. That's blatantly incorrect and ignores what's going on here.

If you think, really and truly think, that we ought to establish some value cutoff for "stomping", a discussion ought to be had about that. We should not, however, instead invent one and call it something else. That, that is really dumb. I even think such a discussion would be fine to have in this thread. Just... stop voting on something because of another, almost unrelated, thing.

 

[KLOL506]

Eh? Stomps? Who said anything about stomps?

 

[Lonkitt]

Okay. People seem to be trying to speak in favor of a stomp value as opposed to a one-shot value, and are trying to make the one-shot value lower in the face of evidence to make it more in-line with what they feel the stomp value should be.

This is messed up, so don't do that. That's blatantly incorrect and ignores what's going on here.

If you think, really and truly think, that we ought to establish some value cutoff for "stomping", a discussion ought to be had about that. We should not, however, instead invent one and call it something else. That, that is really dumb. I even think such a discussion would be fine to have in this thread. Just... stop voting on something because of another, almost unrelated, thing.

Barely anyone here has talked about stomps, Bambu

My opinion and several others here has been based solely on the power difference, not “stomps”

 

[Armorchompy]

Okay. People seem to be trying to speak in favor of a stomp value as opposed to a one-shot value, and are trying to make the one-shot value lower in the face of evidence to make it more in-line with what they feel the stomp value should be.

This is messed up, so don't do that. That's blatantly incorrect and ignores what's going on here.

If you think, really and truly think, that we ought to establish some value cutoff for "stomping", a discussion ought to be had about that. We should not, however, instead invent one and call it something else. That, that is really dumb. I even think such a discussion would be fine to have in this thread. Just... stop voting on something because of another, almost unrelated, thing.

I think this is a fair point but also we have conflated the two so far (AP stomps, that is).

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Barely anyone here has talked about stomps, Bambu

My opinion and several others here has been based solely on the power difference, not “stomps”

Okay, rad. But you're not talking about "one-shots", regardless. Your 'points' have mostly been complaining that your vote was included in the tally, and that somebody called you here (nobody did). If it pleases the court, I'd like to discuss one of two things: the actual factual one-shot gap, without votes coming from different angles, or potential compromises that can be had regarding a different value to use (be it "stomping" or whatever other term one wishes to apply to it), and what basis we should use for that.

 

[Armorchompy]

Folks, let's try to stay on the topic of one-shots, this isn't the place to discuss the staff vote system.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Folks, let's try to stay on the topic of one-shots, this isn't the place to discuss the staff vote system.

Yes. On that note, here's the current tally (people are allowed to vote for two if they wish):

1. Keep 7.5X: Mr._Bambu, Propellus, Armorchompy
2. Change to 5X: DarkDragonMedeus, LordGriffin1000, Emirp sumitpo, Lonkitt, KingTempest, Armorchompy, TheRustyOne, KLOL506, Psychomaster35, SeijiSetto
3. Change to 14X: Antvasima, Mr._Bambu, Qawsedf234, DarkGrath, Elizhaa, LordGriffin1000, Maverick_Zero_X, Damage3245, FinePoint, DMUA, Psychomaster35

@AKM sama @DontTalkDT @Celestial_Pegasus @Andytrenom @Wokistan @Ultima_Reality @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @GyroNutz @Firestorm808 @Everything12 @Just_a_Random_Butler @Agnaa
For the Administrators and Bureaucrats who haven't commented yet, I would like for you to voice your opinions soon so we can wrap this up quick.

 

[Damage3245]

I'm fine with 14x gap I guess, but not too interested in debating on the subject.

 

[KLOL506]

Qawsedf and Grath are both Admins, they should be Green names.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I'm fine with 14x gap I guess, but not too interested in debating on the subject.

Counted.

Qawsedf and Grath are both Admins, they should be Green names.

I colored them as Human Resources, which are admins by default.

 

[Lonkitt]

Okay, rad. But you're not talking about "one-shots", regardless. Your 'points' have mostly been complaining that your vote was included in the tally, and that somebody called you here (nobody did)

Me complaining about the counted votes were not in any way meant to argue the actual reasoning behind the gap. That’s a skewed view on the actually expression I had on the gap above

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Me complaining about the counted votes were not in any way meant to argue the actual reasoning behind the gap. That’s a skewed view on the actually expression I had on the gap above

I will ask again: please contribute to the discussion actually at hand, or simply don't.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that this issue technically counts as calculation related, so our calc group members should also have voting rights here.

Also, I am not sure if this is a sufficiently difficult and sensitive subject to exclude our discussion/thread moderators either, but I cannot just suddenly make an exception to our rules in that regard.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I think that this issue technically counts as calculation related, so our calc group members should also have voting rights here.

Okay, I will count them.

 

[Colonel_Krukov]

I hate to be a pain in the back end, but can someone summarise the reason for each option being used please?

I remember voting already, but it's been a while, and I don't really want to go through 10 pages to re-read everything.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

7.5x: Already in use, simple to use. Previously used since it was the gap from baseline 10-B to baseline 9-C.

5x: Current gap from baseline 10-B to baseline 9-C. This is pursued to keep in line with our previous quasi-standard.

14x: Based on the value needed to punch through the human body (specifically at the head) compared to baseline human level, which is agreed to be an instantly lethal attack and gives some general mathematical basis upon which to base this value.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

1. Keep 7.5X: Mr._Bambu, Propellus, Armorchompy
2. Change to 5X: DarkDragonMedeus, LordGriffin1000, Emirp sumitpo, Lonkitt, KingTempest, Armorchompy, TheRustyOne, KLOL506, Psychomaster35, SeijiSetto
3. Change to 14X: Antvasima, Mr._Bambu, Qawsedf234, DarkGrath, Elizhaa, LordGriffin1000, Maverick_Zero_X, Damage3245, FinePoint, DMUA, Psychomaster35

@Antvasima We have two votes for 7.5X, seven votes for 5X, and 10 votes for 14X. As 14X seems to have the most support, with eight admins and above in favor while the other two combined have only three, and no other staff seem interested in commenting, what should we do here?

 

[CloverDragon03]

I'm torn between the 5x and 14x gaps, admittedly. I do believe we should axe the 7.5x gap, though, as it exists due to a difference in baseline 10-B vs. baseline 9-C, a differential which has changed and thus renders the reasoning for the 7.5x gap pretty much moot

 

[Armorchompy]

How about instead of treating "punching through a skull" to be the one-shot gap, we do "punching through a skull with a finger"? That would still be very lethal, but a more accurate representation of the absolute minimum force required to definitely 100% kill someone.

 

[Colonel_Krukov]

Leaning towards the 14x gap, although I'm interested in Armor's above comment.

 

[Tanin_iver]

Don't have prior permission, but just trying to help out with the calc.

How about instead of treating "punching through a skull" to be the one-shot gap, we do "punching through a skull with a finger"? That would still be very lethal, but a more accurate representation of the absolute minimum force required to definitely 100% kill someone.

although I'm interested in Armor's above comment.

We can try the same method as punching through the skull and fragmenting it, but instead now it will be penetrating the skull with a finger.

Average skull thickness: 6.5 millimeters or 0.65 centimeters

Average surface area of a finger tip: 3.2cm^2 approx

3.2cm^2 x 0.65cm = 2.08 cm^3

Shear strength of bone: 51.6 MPa

(Fragmentation) 2.08 x 51.6 = 107.328 Joules

Baseline 10-B AP: 60 joules

Therefore One-Shot gap when penetrating the skull with a finger: 107.328J / 60J = 1.7888 approx 1.79

I am personally not a fan of hard coded one-shot gaps like 1.8x, 5x, 7.5x, 14x as the methods used to calculate them are arbitrary and highly speculative. One-Shots in general is very case by case and should be carefully evaluated in versus battles.
Any matchup in which a character has the AP advantage will eventually win a battle of attrition no matter how small the gap in AP(ofc all other stats, P&A and conditions being equal)

 

[KLOL506]

How about instead of treating "punching through a skull" to be the one-shot gap, we do "punching through a skull with a finger"? That would still be very lethal, but a more accurate representation of the absolute minimum force required to definitely 100% kill someone.

That's what bullets are for, which abuse surface area AKA piercing damage.

And again, any skilled-enough fighter can reduce that gap to 0 if they know where they're hitting, like the liver, kidneys, or the jaw (Whiplash), assuming their internals aren't as tough as them.

 

[Armorchompy]

Everything is "piercing damage", dude, that's an abstraction done for the purpose of fiction and your own finger is sure as hell not going to pierce a skull anyways. But treating "can crush a skull to paste with a punch" as the starting point of a 100% AP one-shot is stupid as hell.

 

[KLOL506]

But treating "can crush a skull to paste with a punch" as the starting point of a 100% AP one-shot is stupid as hell.

I agree, not sure why this is being brought up tho since I visibly disagreed with the 14x gap and keeping the 7.5x gap as well.

 

[Armorchompy]

Well we have to have a gap.

 

[KLOL506]

Well we have to have a gap.

I am all for it, and I stated that a 5x gap would be best, what with fiction being inconsistent about weak points and what-have-you with organs more or less having the same dura as the outer shell and whatnot.

 

[DMUA]

Everything is "piercing damage", dude, that's an abstraction done for the purpose of fiction and your own finger is sure as hell not going to pierce a skull anyways. But treating "can crush a skull to paste with a punch" as the starting point of a 100% AP one-shot is stupid as hell.

It's not crushing it to paste, it's just for fragmenting it. If we're talking about a sheer brute force gap for one-shots (and of course the idea of one-shotting people is wildly variable based on precision, such as focusing the force into a point that can puncture the skull and penetrate the brain directly), than causing someone's skull to shatter and the ensuing brain damage would be a 100% reliable way to just take them out with a single hit provided they don't have a feat of withstanding such an absurd level of damage (And of course imparting that kind of force onto someone's torso is still going to achieve a similar result)

I think there is something worthwhile to noting that the one-shot value is exclusively for the sheer brute strength required, where a ton of factors can change what causes someone to go down in a single hit

 

[Lonkitt]

It's not crushing it to paste, it's just for fragmenting it. If we're talking about a sheer brute force gap for one-shots (and of course the idea of one-shotting people is wildly variable based on precision, such as focusing the force into a point that can puncture the skull and penetrate the brain directly), than causing someone's skull to shatter and the ensuing brain damage would be a 100% reliable way to just take them out with a single hit provided they don't have a feat of withstanding such an absurd level of damage (And of course imparting that kind of force onto someone's torso is still going to achieve a similar result)

Even if its based on fragmenting, you don't have to fragment somebody's skull to one-shot them

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Why is this debate still going on? We already started the vote, and I don't see any point in going on with these objections when people have already voted. If you have more objections, you can make another thread later.

 

[CloverDragon03]

You know this isn’t a rigid process, right? Yes, people have started voting, but that doesn’t mean people suddenly aren’t allowed to voice objections/opinions/etc.

 

[Propellus]

Why is this debate still going on? We already started the vote, and I don't see any point in going on with these objections when people have already voted. If you have more objections, you can make another thread later.

Please don't rush the thread

 

[Colonel_Krukov]

For the moment I'm on the side of 14x, but I'll be keeping my eye on this thread in case I change my mind.

 

[GyroNutz]

Yes. On that note, here's the current tally (people are allowed to vote for two if they wish):

1. Keep 7.5X: Mr._Bambu, Propellus, Armorchompy
2. Change to 5X: DarkDragonMedeus, LordGriffin1000, Emirp sumitpo, Lonkitt, KingTempest, Armorchompy, TheRustyOne, KLOL506, Psychomaster35, SeijiSetto
3. Change to 14X: Antvasima, Mr._Bambu, Qawsedf234, DarkGrath, Elizhaa, LordGriffin1000, Maverick_Zero_X, Damage3245, FinePoint, DMUA, Psychomaster35

Is “punching through the head” really the smallest guaranteed one shot here? One punch kills happen in real life with far less than a “14x strength gap” and a caved in skull. The more caveats that are brought up, the more I’m wondering whether the idea of a “one-shot” gap is even necessary. Apologies if I’m repeating past statements.

 

[Antvasima]

@Antvasima We have two votes for 7.5X, seven votes for 5X, and 10 votes for 14X. As 14X seems to have the most support, with eight admins and above in favor while the other two combined have only three, and no other staff seem interested in commenting, what should we do here?

What is the current updated score here?

I do agree with Tanin_iver about that 14x seems like a large gap for somewhat even matchups. Is there any lower border closer to 5x based on existing real world mathematical standards?

 

[Phoenks]

What is the gap for a character to no longer be capable of damaging the other person?

And can we say that those with high-levels of tenacity/pain tolerance/will power can continue fighting even after being hit with an attack above the one-shot value, assuming it isn't enough to break every bone in their body or something?

And on that note, wouldn't it be more useful to give a list of gaps, and what they would entail? I think that would be a lot more useful.

For example, you could have:

5x Gap: The gap between a normal human's punch and peak human's punch. Well-placed attacks could instantly knock-out the opponent.
14x Gap: The gap between a normal human's punch and the energy required to shatter a human skull.
??? Gap: The gap between a normal human's punch and the energy required to turn a human into paste.

Don't pay much mind to the specifics or the descriptions, those can be changed. It's the concept that matters. The idea of having these multiple gaps that give insight as to how much they matter in a matchup.

Things like that. For VS matches, it would be infinitely easier to quantify how much of a gap a character would be able to withstand, given their tenacity, regeneration, immortality, and other abilities.

Having one standard value just makes things difficult.

Does anyone else have an opinion on this suggestion?

I do not think it is useful to have a singular, rigid "one-shot" gap when there are so many factors at play in VS matches.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

What is the gap for a character to no longer be capable of damaging the other person?

Surface area makes this an impossible question to answer. A needle-thin bullet fired at 10-C energies could almost definitely instantly kill a human.

I don't see the utility in having a bunch of numbers if we're not providing one as our chosen one-shot value. The purpose of VSBW is to leave as little to interpretation as is possible- we cannot provide objective stances, obviously, but we can do our best. Providing a number of values and asking thread creators to do as they can seems less than ideal.

I don't feel strongly about using 14x, but I do feel strongly that we should create a value based on more than just general vibes, which seems to be the general consensus for using 5x.