"Speed Blitzes" and "One-Shots"

[Colonel_Krukov]

I think we should note down somewhere the requirements for a blitz and ap/durability difference for a one-shot, just for easy reference. (I couldn't find anything already that takes note of this, so I've missed something, please link)

I believe that 7.5x is the amount for a one-shot and 3x is enough for a blitz (Feel free to correct this). Not sure where to put these, maybe a note somewhere in Verses Thread Rules?

Edit: Staff Only

Any Non-Staff may contact me on my message wall of you wish to comment

Impress' suggestions:

1. Have a unified minimum speedblitz approximating multiple cases for indexing convenience
2. Have minimum speedblitz multipliers be case-by-case for different AoE and starting distance between characters, and list some common cases on the speed blitz page.
3. Have no speedblitz multipliers whatsoever, since the assertion is they’re arbitrary regardless the case.

Option 1: (0)
Option 2: LordGriffin1000, Nelliels, Elizhaa, Colonel Krukov, DarkDragonMedeus, The Impress , JohnConquest1 (5 staff, 2 non-staff)
Option 3: Qawsedf234. Migue79, Damage3245, Joycap, FinePoint (4 staff, 1 non-staff)

Poll has been concluded

 

[Propellus]

I'd say the 5x multiplier is the more precise than the 7.5x multiplier

 

[Arkenis]

I believe the 3x for a blitz was based off blitzing eyesight but could be wrong.

 

[Bobsican]

It'd be suited for the Versus Thread Rules as otherwise someone will think these are usable for scaling on profiles, when they're just assumptions done for the sake of there being a minimal to AP stomp or the like for the purposes of matches, as we all know fiction in general is too variable to generalize like that for indexing purposes, let alone to compare between verses.

I recall the x7.5 gap for AP to stomp was accepted for years, but I don't think there was something really set for speed, so more talk on that regard may be required.

Also, wouldn't this go in the staff board? This isn't really a wiki management thread per-say.

 

[Propellus]

Don't speedblitzes usually end up in stomps? It should use the same logic as one shots since speedblitzes also count as one shots.

 

[Damage3245]

It'd be suited for the Versus Thread Rules as otherwise someone will think these are usable for scaling on profiles, when they're just assumptions done for the sake of there being a minimal to AP stomp or the like for the purposes of matches, as we all know fiction in general is too variable to generalize like that for indexing purposes, let alone to compare between verses.

Definitely, this is more of a Versus Thread guideline than something useable for profiles, as you say.

 

[Colonel_Krukov]

That's what I mentioned in the OP?

 

[DontTalkDT]

The 7.5x thing is mentioned here already.
Any speedblitz guideline would need a similar amount of explanation (it ultimately varies in fiction).
Also not sure about 3x being a good value? It depends a lot on the nature of the fight, doesn't it? I would, for example, not get blitzed by a car.
Starting distance can also be a factor.

 

[The_Impress]

Getting a speedblitz low-end is mehh, speed is to a degree, counterable by AoE and range, which makes it immensely case-by-case.

I think we can maybe list some common hypothetical cases for which AoE and range is fixed, and determine the lowest speed gap required to successfully blitz the scenario.

So for example we can say an h2h fight between regular-sized combatants with equivalent skill, what's the minimum speed difference for a blitz there? We can list the answer in the Speed Blitz page, under an Examples section.

 

[Colonel_Krukov]

Sounds perfect.

Would it be worth noting in the vs thread rules with a link to Speed Blitz and One-Shot respectively?

 

[Bobsican]

Also a minor thing, uh... the tag here would be "Versus Thread Rules", not "rules for vs threads/battles", TBH a standard should be done on the usage of "new" tags to avoid their misuse at some point, like, oddly specific names that don't even match an existent page on the site defeat the purpose of organizing a group of pages under a topic, any grammatical change will make it its own "category" after all, but that's beyond the topic of this thread.

 

[Colonel_Krukov]

Also a minor thing, uh... the tag here would be "Versus Thread Rules", not "rules for vs threads/battles", TBH a standard should be done on the usage of "new" tags to avoid their misuse at some point, like, oddly specific names that don't even match an existent page on the site defeat the purpose of organizing a group of pages under a topic, any grammatical change will make it its own "category" after all, but that's beyond the topic of this thread.

That was the tag that already existed.

 

[Bobsican]

After quickly browsing the tag, it's clear it refers to a FC/OC VSBW page, so it'd be inappropiate to use that tag when we're into VSBW content to say the least.

 

[Antvasima]

So do you find Impress' suggested solution acceptable, @DontTalkDT , and should I call for the rest of our administrators for further input here?

 

[DontTalkDT]

So do you find Impress' suggested solution acceptable, @DontTalkDT , and should I call for the rest of our administrators for further input here?

Her idea is fine (with a few more details). The question remains which multiplier we should actually use, though.

 

[Antvasima]

Getting a speedblitz low-end is mehh, speed is to a degree, counterable by AoE and range, which makes it immensely case-by-case.

I think we can maybe list some common hypothetical cases for which AoE and range is fixed, and determine the lowest speed gap required to successfully blitz the scenario.

So for example we can say an h2h fight between regular-sized combatants with equivalent skill, what's the minimum speed difference for a blitz there? We can list the answer in the Speed Blitz page, under an Examples section.

So do you find Impress' suggested solution acceptable, @DontTalkDT , and should I call for the rest of our administrators for further input here?

Her idea is fine (with a few more details). The question remains which multiplier we should actually use, though.

Okay. I will ask our other administrators for further input help then.

@DarkDragonMedeus @SomebodyData @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @SamanPatou

Would you be willing to help out here please?

 

[SomebodyData]

Pretty neutral tbh, I don't really try to get into versus threads rulings and it seems like the multiplier would be an arbitrary ruling no matter what we do.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Would you be willing to help out here please?

Well AP we already have a rough standard.

Speed blitz is just, harder to handle. Theoretically something as small as a 2x speed difference can lead to a stomp. Generally I think its mostly a case by case thing and you have to look at how the people in question act while in character. Flashy Flash for example is lightyears more competent with his speed than basically any version of the Flash if both are in-character.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I'm not sure to be honest, it's a case by case thing as already stated above. I guess The Impress suggestions fine but I myself don't have much of a stance on how we should handle this kind of thing.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Shouldn't we explain on the page about scaling chain?

In many matches people use scaling chain to say that character X defeats character Y with one attack even if the difference is virtually less than 7.5 times

 

[Qawsedf234]

To add to this, I feel like we should actually define levels of preparation when giving someone "Prep time".

Because right now there's literally no definition or idea what Prep Time is defined as.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

7.5x being the standard Vs thread assumption sounds reasonable for me; that's the peakhuman to average human gap. I know there are often situations mentioned and often inconsistent in fiction; I've seen people stand up to attacks hundreds or even thousands of times greater than their own, but that is due to outliers/PIS. But there do exist characters with immense amounts of endurance compared to their durability, but that often gets into game mechanics territory. But the 7.5x gap with footnotes I feel don't really need updates and changes.

As for speed, I'm unsure. Some said only 2x since that's the same gap, but plenty of normal people can still see peak humans coming and make an effort to react and avoid; blitzing by definition means getting struck faster than the individual can really think or often times didn't even see their opponent move. I feel like that's just more situational compared to AP. Not sure what to give for a numbers but I'm positive it should not be any more than 10x being the requirement. But maybe something more like 4 or 5x sounds reasonable for me.

 

[The_Impress]

Okay so, this thread is losing focus abit.

One-shots are a redundant topic to a degree to discuss given OP is concerned where the AP diff is listed, it is here:

Assuming a situation in which one character has humanoid physiology and is hit in the torso region, the assailant will normally be treated as needing an attack potency 7.5 times higher than their opponent's durability in order to one-shot them.

It should be added to other pages as well, or at least link to the One-Shot page.

Speed gap is the relevant discussion to be had, there are two school of thoughts to be had:

• Have a unified speedblitz difference approximating multiple cases for indexing convenience (Option A)
• Have multiple speedblitz differences based case-by-case for different AoE and distance between characters, with the common listed on the file. (Option B)

Depending on what is chosen, we will then focus on trying to agree upon minimum speed gaps considered blitz, something I believe is to be focused on calc group members.

Until then, can we have a vote on Options A and B from staff and whatnot? That’ll help the direction of this thread better

 

[FinePoint]

There is a third option, as someone who does debate in matches.

An exact multiplier on what qualifies for a blitz is impossible, even given some basic information. It relies on variables that can't be fully accounted for without simply discussing it individually: AoE, range, starting distance, amps, mitigating hax (such as fear), skill, even character personality can be a factor as Qawsedf234 mentioned.

Setting up a standard multiplier would be arbitrary at best. Letting people argue for a blitz in a particular instance is far more conducive to a fair and interesting debate than forcing a universal standard on matches that may not account for every factor and incentivizes dismissing legitimate arguments which mitigate the speed advantage. If a blitz is obvious then reasonable people will be able to come to that conclusion without a multiplier requirement.

I think that simply explaining what a blitz is and giving some examples without giving any multipliers is the best option.

 

[KLOL506]

As for speed, I'm unsure. Some said only 2x since that's the same gap, but plenty of normal people can still see peak humans coming and make an effort to react and avoid; blitzing by definition means getting struck faster than the individual can really think or often times didn't even see their opponent move. I feel like that's just more situational compared to AP. Not sure what to give for a numbers but I'm positive it should not be any more than 10x being the requirement. But maybe something more like 4 or 5x sounds reasonable for me.

This is more or less a distance and AoE game rather than humans actually being able to see Subsonic stuff incoming from far. Close-up CQC tho, that changes dramatically.

So at the end of the day, the multiplier will be affected by a number of factors, which may need to be determined on a case-by-case basis.

 

[KLOL506]

Okay so, this thread is losing focus abit.

One-shots are a redundant topic to a degree to discuss given OP is concerned where the AP diff is listed, it is here:

It should be added to other pages as well, or at least link to the One-Shot page.

Speed gap is the relevant discussion to be had, there are two school of thoughts to be had:

• Have a unified speedblitz difference approximating multiple cases for indexing convenience (Option A)
• Have multiple speedblitz differences based case-by-case for different AoE and distance between characters, with the common listed on the file. (Option B)

Depending on what is chosen, we will then focus on trying to agree upon minimum speed gaps considered blitz, something I believe is to be focused on calc group members.

Until then, can we have a vote on Options A and B from staff and whatnot? That’ll help the direction of this thread better

Option B looks more sensible in my case.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I think that simply explaining what a blitz is and giving some examples without giving any multipliers is the best option.

Honestly, I can agree with that.

 

[The_Impress]

I think there are many instances of low-tier matches, very commonly done, where margins can very easily be derived though :v

Option 3 isn’t considering the simplicity of speed in a variety of matches, there are complex cases, but just because they exist doesn’t mean simple cases can’t be addressed either

 

[The_Impress]

Anyways the three options are:

1. Have a unified minimum speedblitz approximating multiple cases for indexing convenience
2. Have minimum speedblitz multipliers be case-by-case for different AoE and starting distance between characters, and list some common cases on the speed blitz page.
3. Have no speedblitz multipliers whatsoever, since the assertion is they’re arbitrary regardless the case.

You can read some of the arguments above for them.

@Antvasima can you gather any staff input for this, specifically the vote, thread is dead :v

 

[Antvasima]

@Antvasima can you gather any staff input for this, specifically the vote, thread is dead :v

Yes. No problem.

@AKM sama @Ultima_Reality @DarkDragonMedeus @SomebodyData @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @Damage3245

What do you think that we should do here?

 

[Qawsedf234]

3 mostly.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

2 seems fine but I'm leaning more towards option 3.

 

[KLOL506]

2 or 3, whatever goes between either of those I am fine with.

1 makes no sense for Speed at all.

 

[Colonel_Krukov]

2 or 3

 

[Elizhaa]

I am fine with option 2 or 3.

 

[Migue79]

I side option 3 exactly for FinePoint’s reasons.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

2 or 3 both seem like valuable options

 

[Abstractions]

Hate to just be a parrot, but yes, 2 or 3 are fine.

 

[The_Impress]

Wait, I am getting confused abit, basically every input thus far, save for two members, is amounting to “either two or three are fine”

Option 2 IS inclusive of Option 3 if you’d note, so if this trend continues I’ll suggest doing Option 2, it’s just Option 3 but with added info.