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Chakra and the Soul (for Naruto at least)

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There's nothing new revealed that would make discussing it any different than the dozens times prior.

There are two interpretations;

1. It destroyed that part of Minato's soul
2. It negated that part of the jutsu and Minato's soul arms were sent back to the pure land

Personally I feel the second option has more evidence given that we're explicitly told it negates jutsu by Tobirama after he sees it delete Minato's Edo Tensei arms.
 
Purgy said:
There's nothing new revealed that would make discussing it any different that the dozens times prior.

There are two interpretations;

1. It destroyed that part of Minato's soul
2. It negated that part of the jutsu and Minato's soul arms were sent back to the pure land

Personally I feel the second options has more evidence given that we're explicitly told it negates jutsu by Tobirama after he sees it delete Minato's Edo Tensei arms.
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It doesn't just have more evidence, it's more like the only explanation/evidence given in the series pretty much confirms this interpretation lol.
I used to think it was soul manipulation myself, which is why I researched this topic a lot, and I believe Power Nullification is indeed the most supported conclusion.
 
tbh I still think it is soul manipulation because I feel that if it was power nullification it would completely undo the jutsu not just stop them from healing. Another reason I belive this is due to the nature of TSO's, they are literally made out of reality warping stuff (contain all the natures and so on). I dont care for what we do with them atm but I dont think I would ever change my mind on that). If Minato still had is arms while leaving to the pure world the nullification answer would make sense, else I dont think it really does.
 
Rocker1189 said:
If Minato still had is arms while leaving to the pure world the nullification answer would make sense, else I dont think it really does.
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The point is that they nullified that part of the jutsu and sent his soul arms back to the pure land, because they were no longer tied to the world of the living, we never see him in the pure land after that so you can't say this isn't possible.

Regardless, I'll reiterate again that this discussion is banned, if people really want to discuss it then seek to have rule removed first, though I doubt that will happen since there is no new information regarding this that wasn't available when the ban was implemented.
 
Either way, I can agree with limited soul manipulation for those that can manipulate their soul and mental energy etc.

And normal soul manipulation for those that have been shown to harm/affect souls/spirits
 
Rocker1189 said:
tbh I still think it is soul manipulation because I feel that if it was power nullification it would completely undo the jutsu not just stop them from healing. Another reason I belive this is due to the nature of TSO's, they are literally made out of reality warping stuff (contain all the natures and so on). I dont care for what we do with them atm but I dont think I would ever change my mind on that). If Minato still had is arms while leaving to the pure world the nullification answer would make sense, else I dont think it really does.
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The issue with that is that the TSOs are contact based. They only nullify what they directly touch, which was only that part of Minato's arm at that particular instance.
 
UchihaSlayer96 said:
The issue with that is that the TSOs are contact based. They only nullify what they directly touch, which was only that part of Minato's arm at that particular instance.
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well I have a bit to say about that(and a bunch to say about Naruto and souls in general) but this is not the thread for it.
 
Rocker1189 said:
well I have a bit to say about that(and a bunch to say about Naruto and souls in general) but this is not the thread for it.
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I mean, it kinda is lol. I think it's a perfect opportunity for you to discuss this if you have any new arguments. I'm definitely interested to hear it personally, but I guess we should ask for permission to discuss this topic further since it's apparently banned for some reason.
 
UchihaSlayer96 said:
I mean, it kinda is lol. I think it's a perfect opportunity for you to discuss this if you have any new arguments. I'm definitely interested to hear it personally, but I guess we should ask for permission to discuss this topic further since it's apparently banned for some reason.
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I mean I would be branching out to some other stuff and it would be best for this thread to just be done with on top of that I would like to do it in a more organized way if I do get to it.
 
I do have one question, the refute or interpretation is that the jutsu is being negated therefore any part of the soul thats been cut off is sent back to the purelands. How would you prove that the part is being sent back or is that an assumption based off the nullifying of the jutsu?
 
Nelliels said:
I do have one question, the refute or interpretation is that the jutsu is being negated therefore any part of the soul thats been cut off is sent back to the purelands. How would you prove that the part is being sent back or is that an assumption based off the nullifying of the jutsu?
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This is more or less the currently accepted explanation.
 
Damage3245 said:
That's currently accepted as the TSO negating the Edo Tensei jutsu - not harming the souls.
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not talking about banned topics
but if pure chakra = soul(it should since hagoromo clearly state that his , ashura and indra soul is same as chakra) than tso should be able to null soul
Shadowbokunohero said:
I'm pretty sure it just nullifies the Ninjutu thus sending that piece of the soul back to the paradise land through causation.
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than naruto get BFR
:unsure:
 
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What's the status on this? We're already at the end of the week

Only 2 staff members agreed, the remaining 3 that came into this thread are inconclusive. How do we go about this?
 
UchihaSlayer96 said:
Sorry, I'm a bit busy and I'm on mobile, so I'll keep this brief.

I'd like to finally share my personal conclusions about this topic. Soooooo here goes!

I think Tempest did a great job showcasing and proving the intrinsic relationship between chakra and souls in the Narutoverse. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that souls and chakra being one and the same is not only possible, but extremely likely at this point IMHO.

We've also managed to prove why these souls/pure chakra entities are intangible, via Dan's ability description and feats.

However, there is a clear distinction between pure souls/pure chakra entities, and Ninjutsu. Ninjutsu is the combination of spiritual/mental energy (I.e: this "pure" chakra/spirit we've been talking about) and physical energy. Ninjutsu is a weaponized variant of pure chakra that's mixed in and diluted with physical energy in order to give it physical tangible form.
Does that mean it's no longer partially spiritual? No, of course not, but it's also clearly completely physical energy that can interact with and affect the material world. Thus, we probably cannot award NPI and Soul Manipulation to every single Jutsu and chakra user in existence because they're only capable of utilizing this diluted, physical version of chakra in very specific ways (Ninjutsu, genjutsu, etc).

With all that in mind, there are notable exceptions as this thread has made abundantly clear. Some characters have shown the ability to interact directly with spirits/souls/pure chakra entities and with intangible spiritual constructs (Itachi's spirit weapons).

Those characters being:
- Susano'o users: scaling to Itachi, as all Susano'o are fundamentally the same.

- Bijū chakra users via their chakra manifestations: Scaling to Naruto who not only can grab on to his own soul/life-force on multiple occasions (against Nagato and Kurama), but can even grab onto other Bijū's life-force/pure chakra form against Obito.

Additionally, it seems that Bijū chakra can indeed be selectively intangible as well, given Naruto's showings in the Last and the nature of Bijū in general. (Again only in chakra forms/chakra manifestations)

- Rinnegan users: Via the Human Path, pretty self explanatory.

- Tsunade's Healing in particular, for it can heal and affect the soul.

- Barrier and Sealing Ninjutsu, as it can block spirits and affect them in a variety of ways as well.

All of the aforementioned examples should be awarded Non-Physical Interaction, and in Tsunade's case Limited Soul Manipulation as well.

As for the relationship between chakra and souls, I think it's very important to explain that thoroughly in a blog and post it on the verse page; however, I don't think it should award Soul Manipulation imo.

That's about it really, hope this helped.
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I still think we should proceed with something along the lines of this imo.
 
Warren_Valion said:
But I remember there being examples of that not being the case.

Orochimaru was able to grab his soul and try putting it back in, he wasn't the one using the Reaper Death seal, you can't say that he would have any special ability to interact with immaterial things.

Also, Chakra from its definition isn't purely spiritual energy, it's spiritual energy mixed with physical energy. So it's very likely that Chakra is physical, and thus, you wouldn't get NPI from touching it.
Click to expand...
This.
I should comment as the basis for this thread was made from my comment (I was notified days before this thread was made by KingTempest that he liked my old comment so I assumed something was happening).

Without a doubt Chakra is connected to the soul, I literally state this and proved it in the scans and comment KingTempest draws from. However, as Warren points out, Chakra isn't just spiritual energy and it is physical. Not everyone should get Soul Manipulation nor NPI just for Chakra Interaction, the major characters that do interact with souls already have the accepted abilities and such for actual direct feats.
 
Read through the whole freaking thread today. I'm chadding out, y'all.

I feel like what I say doesn't really matter since I'm not really a Naruto buff, but whatever. Looking through all of the arguments, I can vibe with Non-Physical Interaction. The only person I think that warrants Soul Manipulation is Tsunade due to explicitly being shown to be capable of healing souls.

So yeah, that's my two cents on the thread.

I wish I was knowledgeable enough in a verse to make contributions and stuff like this. :(
 
IMadeThisOn8-1-2017 said:
Human Path users should get it per it being their ability even if it's a very weak soul manipulation ability.
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Nagato can summon at the very least hundreds of thousands of souls with Rinne Rebirth and send them to their bodies. Just because he has two hands doesn't mean his soul manipulation is weak, his range is small.
I don't see how Human Path is "weak" Soul Ability.
 
I don't know how it's strong. It just seems like he can return souls of the dead from the king of hell and touch them. Wouldn't really classify that as strong soul manip. And the amount of souls he can effect isn't really impressive if it's just a bunch of weak souls which the souls were just konoha civis. His soul dragon is probably better than his human path. Now if the outer path allowed him to pull his soul back after death that probably would be more useful than pulling people's soul out via limited range compared to the soul dragon which he can shoot out.
 
Nelliels said:
I don't know how it's strong. It just seems like he can return souls of the dead from the king of hell and touch them
Click to expand...
Rinne Tensei summons souls from Pure Land (heaven).

Nelliels said:
And the amount of souls he can effect isn't really impressive if it's just a bunch of weak souls which the souls were just konoha civis
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A soul is a soul.
Mind Hax in this site is rated as "strong" even if it affects normal people without resistance.
Numbers matter.
 
Slacjow said:
A soul is a soul.
Click to expand...
I don't see the reasoning for why the amount matters. And no "a soul is a soul" isn't always true, there are characters who might have stronger souls than others and therefore can resist soul hax.


KingTempest said:
Did they just say Kakashi and old sage toad were weak O.O
Click to expand...
Unless they have some statement about their soul being a powerful soul then no their souls aren't any different than other people's soul in konoha.
 
Nelliels said:
I don't see the reasoning for why the amount matters. And no "a soul is a soul" isn't always true, there are characters who might have stronger souls than others and therefore can resist soul hax.
Click to expand...
The number of souls affected does matter.

From https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Soul_Manipulation:

Generally speaking, we judge the potency of Soul Manipulation both by what it can do and by how many people its user can affect at once with it. This may range from only a few people at a time to entire planetary populations.

When judging the potency of Soul Manipulation, and the resistance against it, there is a variety of factors to be considered. Such as the mechanisms involved, how many people the Soul Manipulation can affect, whether it has demonstrated to break through resistances, how great the effects are, etc.
 
I apologize for rushing anybody that's busy (as in, everybody), but this thread has been mini dropped since a lot of people are stuck at either partially inconclusive or fully inconclusive.

Here are the options we're mainly taking since nobody (please inform me if you do) disagrees.
  • Give those listed earlier in the thread (Potentially Limited) Soul Manipulation and Non-Physical Interaction.
  • Give those listed earlier in the thread Non-Physical Interaction
Those listed consist of
  • Jinchuriki who can used Tailed Beast State or Manifest Chakra Limbs
    • Naruto Uzumaki
    • Minato Namikaze
    • Juubi Obito Uchiha
    • (Madara hasn't been shown to, but he should be able to) Juubi Madara Uchiha
    • Kaguya Otsutsuki
    • Killer Bee
    • Fu
    • Utakata
    • Han
    • Roshi
    • Yagura Karatachi
    • Yugito Nii
  • Susanoo users
    • Sasuke Uchiha
    • Itachi Uchiha
    • Madara Uchiha
    • Kakashi Hatake
  • Medical Ninja
    • Tsunade
    • Sakura (for potentially surpassing her master)
  • NPI is needed for Human Path users.
    • Nagato Uzumaki
    • Obito Uchiha
    • (Not shown or stated to use, but is able to)
      • Madara Uchiha
      • Sasuke Uchiha
And that's that
 
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Pretty sure the outer path is a showing of limited soul manipulation. Can bring souls back from the purelands similar to edo tensei
 
ninja's can resist to soul minip if their emotion are not being control by soul minip user
0522-010.png.jpg
 
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