Canon Star Wars: Revenge of the Downgrade

[Antvasima]

I have to unsubscribe from this thread due to time constraints. You can notify me later via my message wall if you need my help after you have reached a conclusion. Alternately, a staff member can use the @Username notification system.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Thread bumped to life just like Darth Sidious.

It is easy to argue that a Jedi failed to utilize precognition due to CIS, but it is hard to justify poor performance from CIS if they can become hundreds of times faster than their opponent or become invulnerable to hand-held ranged attacks.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

> but it is hard to justify poor performance from CIS if they can become hundreds of times faster than their opponent or become invulnerable to hand-held ranged

it isn't when the star wars universe has hundreds of different writers with different Interpretations of power as well as having to still try and make supporting characters relevant and create tension that moves along the story as opposed to conforming to power scaling.

this happens to Comic books like Marvel and DC

Illogical things happen in the story because if they didn't then there would be no story, this is true for star wars since the beginning.

1. Why Doesn't Obi Wan Use Force Speed to get to Qui Gon in time --> the story needs Qui Gon Jinn to die
2. Why does Luke skywalker throw a Skull instead of using the force to push the button --> we need tension in the Rancor scene
3. Why isnt the force more prevalent in Lightsaber fights when it logically should (being used to lift people up, deactivated their lightsaber ect) --> because Star Wars is inspired by Samurai Films and having the entire sword fight undercut by force powers would ruin the scene

and these are just nitpicks from a small sample size of the movies. the list gets bigger the more Mediums we add.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Shadow, pretty much summed up my thoughts, the day Jedi get downgraded to the level of Bounty Hunters is the day Superman gets downgraded to the level of Batman. Star Wars does have a lot of writers similar to Marvel and DC. And while no where near as extreme, it is still overall the same class. Jedi also have a lot of CIS where they indeed have a lot of broken powers, but it's against their religion or honor code to use it. And they'd be crushing entire armies singlehandedly had it not been for those codes of honor. I recall a scene where Mace Windu solo'd an entire army of Super battledroids with his bare hands. And there's also things like Precognition or Instinctive reactions only work when Jedi are healthy. They're pretty much a bunch of Martain Manhunters in that regard.

 

[Idazmi]

Shadow, pretty much summed up my thoughts, the day Jedi get downgraded to the level of Bounty Hunters is the day Superman gets downgraded to the level of Batman. (...) I recall a scene where Mace Windu solo'd an entire army of Super battledroids with his bare hands. (...)

The difference being that the Jedi Order as a whole were exterminated by the Clone Army: Krypton wasn't destroyed by an army of Batman, who defeats Superman by exploiting his weakness to Kryptonite and his unwillingness to kill a weaker opponent. The Jedi have no such convenient exploits, and are threatened by and killed by non force-sensitive beings well often enough to discredit the idea that average Jedi are multiple tiers over everyone else.

Additionally, Mace Windu destroyed that army of Battledroids with his bare hands... in Genndy Tartakovsky's Clone Wars series, which is not considered canon. If all Jedi could do even a fraction of that, Revenge of the Sith would be an outlier as a whole: it isn't.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The Jedi were sneak attacked, and were far outnumbered by clones. That's not really a valid anti-feat. And actually, Wonder Woman, who is comparable to Superman has often been injured by the same bullets which are in turn often easily blocked or dodged by Batman level characters. And Batman has managed to withstand hits from Doomsday or kill some Doomsday clones with an axe.

And actually, lots of Jedi and Sith have single handedly stomped entire armies of clone troopers, and mentally stable Jedi often deflect blasters casually. Some non force users such as General Grevious are actually seen as extremely muscular as the reason for their tiers and he's easily multiple tiers above clones and droids; and yet he struggles to fight a Jedi or two. He's pretty much a primary reason for why Jedi are so far above Clones and Droids and Bounty Hunters.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

the reason why the order 66 thing is PIS is because Jedi have literally been shown to charge into battle against thousands of droids aswell as deflecting multiple shots from all around.

The Jedi need to lose here for the OT to happen, it's a plot contrivance.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I'm agreeing with Shadowbokunohero and Dark Dragon Medeus.

 

[Idazmi]

the reason why the order 66 thing is PIS is because Jedi have literally been shown to charge into battle against thousands of droids aswell as deflecting multiple shots from all around.

The Jedi need to lose here for the OT to happen, it's a plot contrivance.

They've been shown doing this in the films and TCW? I don't think so. Not without an army of clones behind them.

 

[Idazmi]

The Jedi were sneak attacked, and were far outnumbered by clones. That's not really a valid anti-feat. (...)

It is when you're claiming that Jedi can stomp entire armies singlehanded. If that were true, what was the point of the Clone Army in the first place? Why did Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan flee from two Droidekas in The Phantom Menace? What's stopping them from assaulting and defeating the Droid Control Ship from within at the very start? How did the Millennium Falcon escape from Echo Base with Darth Vader standing literally meters away? Same for the Tantive 4 in Rogue One?

 

[Catalyst75]

> but it is hard to justify poor performance from CIS if they can become hundreds of times faster than their opponent or become invulnerable to hand-held ranged

it isn't when the star wars universe has hundreds of different writers with different Interpretations of power as well as having to still try and make supporting characters relevant and create tension that moves along the story as opposed to conforming to power scaling.

Technically speaking, that's actually the difference between Lucas Licensing (responsible for everything in the Legends continuity) and Lucas himself. Lucas and others are on record saying that Legends is an entirely separate thing from what was considered the official canon i.e. the films and the Clone Wars TV series. Everything coming out of Lucas Licensing - the books, the video games, etc., weren't even on Lucas' radar.

In other words, the Jedi as depicted in the films and Clone Wars TV series are consistent with how George Lucas himself likely envisioned Force wielders, while Legends writers all went and did their own things.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Technically speaking, that's actually the difference between Lucas Licensing (responsible for everything in the Legends continuity) and Lucas himself. Lucas and others are on record saying that Legends is an entirely separate thing from what was considered the official canon i.e. the films and the Clone Wars TV series. Everything coming out of Lucas Licensing - the books, the video games, etc., weren't even on Lucas' radar.

In other words, the Jedi as depicted in the films and Clone Wars TV series are consistent with how George Lucas himself likely envisioned Force wielders, while Legends writers all went and did their own things.

you are correct my post was mostly referring to the new canon, which is what the thread is about.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

They've been shown doing this in the films and TCW? I don't think so. Not without an army of clones behind them.

1. An Injured Anakin,Ahsoka, and Ayla with only 2 clones casually wrecked an entire battalion of droids, the only reason Ahsoka had to fall back was because she had to take care of the Village, Anakin (who was Injured btw) mirked through all of them until he got to the General.

> If that were true, what was the point of the Clone Army in the first place?

1. The Droid army is absolutely massive, The Jedi might be incredibly powerful but they cant be everywhere at the same time
2. The Jedi are peacekeepers, not Soldiers, their reluctant fighters, and generals within this war.
3. The Point of the Clone Army is to stoke an artificial war to allow Palaptine to sieze emergency powers within the Senate and give him enough control to turn the Republic into the Empire.

> Why did Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan flee from two Droidekas in The Phantom Menace? What's stopping them from assaulting and defeating the Droid Control Ship from within at the very start?

Because then there would be no Movie.

>How did the Millennium Falcon escape from Echo Base with Darth Vader standing literally meters away?

Then Empire Strikes cant happen

> Same for the Tantive 4 in Rogue One?

because then A New Hope cant happen.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

1. An Injured Anakin,Ahsoka, and Ayla with only 2 clones casually wrecked an entire battalion of droids, the only reason Ahsoka had to fall back was because she had to take care of the Village, Anakin (who was Injured btw) mirked through all of them until he got to the General.

> If that were true, what was the point of the Clone Army in the first place?

1. The Droid army is absolutely massive, The Jedi might incredibly powerful but they cant be everywhere at the same time
2. The Jedi are peacekeepers not Soldiers, their reluctant fighters and generals within this war.
3. The Point of the Clone Army is to stoke an artificial war to allow Palaptine to sieze emergency powers within the Senate and give him enough control to turn the Republic into the Empire.

> Why did Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan flee from two Droidekas in The Phantom Menace? What's stopping them from assaulting and defeating the Droid Control Ship from within at the very start?

Because then there would be no Movie.

>How did the Millennium Falcon escape from Echo Base with Darth Vader standing literally meters away?

Then Empire Strikes cant happen

> Same for the Tantive 4 in Rogue One?

because then A New Hope cant happen.

It's literally just Plot Contrivances that need to happen.

 

[SheevShezarrine]

I wasn't aware that I was considered knowledgeable enough to be actively called upon for this sort of thing lol. But the thread is solid enough. I've been of the mind that Jedi/Sith have Small Building level dura without barriers for a while, and everything else largely checks out, too. But I do agree more with the proposed Supersonic combat speed, and as for lightsaber AP or dura negation, I think just the High 8-C+ with no dura negation checks out best.

 

[Catalyst75]

I wasn't aware that I was considered knowledgeable enough to be actively called upon for this sort of thing lol. But the thread is solid enough. I've been of the mind that Jedi/Sith have Small Building level dura without barriers for a while, and everything else largely checks out, too. But I do agree more with the proposed Supersonic combat speed, and as for lightsaber AP or dura negation, I think just the High 8-C+ with no dura negation checks out best.

I don't believe I've brought it up before, but have any calculations been done for Palpatine's Force Lightning speed in "Rise of Skywalker"? If we take that as a baseline for Force Lightning overall, wouldn't that affect the speed scaling of those shown able to block Force Lightning, specifically Palpatine's?

 

[Idazmi]

1. An Injured Anakin,Ahsoka, and Ayla with only 2 clones casually wrecked an entire battalion of droids, the only reason Ahsoka had to fall back was because she had to take care of the Village, Anakin (who was Injured btw) mirked through all of them until he got to the General.

> If that were true, what was the point of the Clone Army in the first place?

1. The Droid army is absolutely massive, The Jedi might be incredibly powerful but they cant be everywhere at the same time
2. The Jedi are peacekeepers, not Soldiers, their reluctant fighters, and generals within this war.
3. The Point of the Clone Army is to stoke an artificial war to allow Palaptine to sieze emergency powers within the Senate and give him enough control to turn the Republic into the Empire.

> Why did Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan flee from two Droidekas in The Phantom Menace? What's stopping them from assaulting and defeating the Droid Control Ship from within at the very start?

Because then there would be no Movie.

>How did the Millennium Falcon escape from Echo Base with Darth Vader standing literally meters away?

Then Empire Strikes cant happen

> Same for the Tantive 4 in Rogue One?

because then A New Hope cant happen.

Star Wars Episode 1: Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan didn't just destroy the Droid Army outright, and even fled from and evaded the army multiple times.
Star Wars Episode 2: Obi-Wan struggled to fight against Jango Fett and gets captured by Separatists on Geonosis. Anakin struggled against Geonosians and gets captured by Jango Fett and squad of droids. Both of them struggled to survive in the Geonisian arena. Multiple Jedi are killed by Geonosians and droids in the last battle.
Star Wars Episode 3: The Jedi Order is wiped out by the Clone Army.
Star Wars Episode 4: Obi-Wan evades Stormtroopers instead of fighting them directly.
Star Wars Episode 5: Luke is nearly killed by a Wampa Ice Creature, gets shot down over Hoth, gets outmaneuvered by several squads of Stormtroopers and Boba Fett on Bespin.
Star Wars Episode 6: Luke is nearly killed by a Rancor beast, is temporarily ensnared by Boba Fett, gets shot in the hand by a random thug, gets thrown off his speederbike, and generally struggles through the entire film.
Star Wars Episode 7: Kylo Ren gets shot and injured by Chewbacca, Rey evades Stormtroopers instead of directly engaging them.
Star Wars Episode 8: Kylo doesn't just go and wipe out the resistance on Crait by himself, instead using his army and artillery to do the job. Equally, Rey doesn't just obliterate the First Order the instant she arrives, despite being definitively more powerful than Luke.
Star Wars Episode 9: Rey struggles against pursuing stormtroopers more than once, on jetpacks, on vehicles, and so on.

At this point, it seems to me like you just want to ignore the entire context of the movies so that you can claim that average Jedi are literal "one man armies" who can single-handedly destroy a thousand battledroids with only their fists. put more simply:



^ This is canon.



^ This is not.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Star Wars Episode 1: Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan didn't just destroy the Droid Army outright, and even fled from and evaded the army multiple times.
Star Wars Episode 2: Obi-Wan struggled to fight against Jango Fett and gets captured by Separatists on Geonosis. Anakin struggled against Geonosians and gets captured by Jango Fett and squad of droids. Both of them struggled to survive in the Geonisian arena. Multiple Jedi are killed by Geonosians and droids in the last battle.
Star Wars Episode 3: The Jedi Order is wiped out by the Clone Army.
Star Wars Episode 4: Obi-Wan evades Stormtroopers instead of fighting them directly.
Star Wars Episode 5: Luke is nearly killed by a Wampa Ice Creature, gets shot down over Hoth, gets outmaneuvered by several squads of Stormtroopers and Boba Fett on Bespin.
Star Wars Episode 6: Luke is nearly killed by a Rancor beast, is temporarily ensnared by Boba Fett, gets shot in the hand by a random thug, gets thrown off his speederbike, and generally struggles through the entire film.
Star Wars Episode 7: Kylo Ren gets shot and injured by Chewbacca, Rey evades Stormtroopers instead of directly engaging them.
Star Wars Episode 8: Kylo doesn't just go and wipe out the resistance on Crait by himself, instead using his army and artillery to do the job. Equally, Rey doesn't just obliterate the First Order the instant she arrives, despite being definitively more powerful than Luke.
Star Wars Episode 9: Rey struggles against pursuing stormtroopers more than once, on jetpacks, on vehicles, and so on.

At this point, it seems to me like you just want to ignore the entire context of the movies so that you can claim that average Jedi are literal "one man armies" who can single-handedly destroy a thousand battledroids with only their fists.

Refer to my first point way back.

>it isn't when the star wars universe has hundreds of different writers with different Interpretations of power


> so that you can claim that average Jedi are literal "one man armies" who can single-handedly destroy a thousand battledroids with only their fists.

Quote me saying "Jedi can single handily take out thousands of droids with only their fist" or me saying "an average Jedi is One Man army"
If you cant then stop punching down a strawman.


> Star Wars Episode 1: Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan didn't just destroy the Droid Army outright, and even fled from and evaded the army multiple times.

1. They Fled to warn the Queen of an Impending Invasion and then, later on, returned to fight Darth Maul.

> Star Wars Episode 2: Obi-Wan struggled to fight against Jango Fett and gets captured by Separatists on Geonosis.

in the same scene, he survives a calculated city block level attack from the Slave I

> Star Wars Episode 3: The Jedi Order is wiped out by the Clone Army.

Cool already argued against this.

>Star Wars Episode 4: Obi-Wan evades Stormtroopers instead of fighting them directly.

You mean the Obi-wan who's Objective is to shut down the shields without anyone noticing? you realize Obi wan fighting off stormtroopers would entirely shit on his plan .

> Star Wars Episode 5: Luke is nearly killed by a Wampa Ice Creature, gets shot down over Hoth, gets outmaneuvered by several squads of Stormtroopers and Boba Fett on Bespin.

Do you mean the barely trained Luke that gets caught off guard?

>gets shot down over Hoth

Non Sequitur

> gets outmaneuvered by several squads of Stormtroopers and Boba Fett on Bespin.

Doesn't get outmaneuvered, the stormtroopers have knowledge of him coming and purposely move away from him so that he can confront Vader in the carbonite chamber.

>Star Wars Episode 6: Luke is nearly killed by a Rancor beast

Cool, what massive anti feats does this Rancor have?

>is temporarily ensnared by Boba Fett

Explain to me why this is an anti feat.

> generally struggles through the entire film.

and then he defeats Darth Vader, the same guy who murders dozens of Rebels in a hallway and tears apart large steel structures and stops an insane amount of water collapsing on top of him?

> Kylo Ren gets shot and injured by Chewbacca

You mean the same blaster that >>> a normal blaster that did this Casually.

> Star Wars Episode 8: Kylo doesn't just go and wipe out the resistance on Crait by himself

Why would he?

> despite being definitively more powerful than Luke.

She isn't.

> Rey struggles against pursuing stormtroopers more than once

struggling???.

Literally, in that same scene, she goes on to casually play tug of war with a large transport and then blow it up with her lightning.

Rey doesn't struggle with stormtroopers lol

For Fun here's Rey Casually lifting up a giant sea monster

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm with Shadow here, even if you want to argue Jedi being glass cannons, they still have a lot of Tier 8 durability feats that trump the feats of typical Storm Troopers or Clones. And Jedi have ripped apart large ships with Force Push/Force Pull and destroyed ATATs with their lightsaber strikes regularly. And Jedi have use their Saber Throw as a force power; that can hit with just as much force Jedi use to destroy ships. And their regular strikes also use the same force powers.

And again, Jedi hold back. They're not soldiers, they're more like Xiaolin monks that want no one dead. Of course Obi-Wan chose to sneak on board rather than fight. Also, Kylo Ren was emotionally fragile due to his father touching his heart in those future scenes. And Rei was still an amateur Jedi at the time also. There's also plenty of feats from the canon TV series. Such as Anakin even when sick taking on entire armies as Shadow brought up.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I'm with Shadow and DDM here.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

iirc there was something about the war clouding the Jedi's judgement to react to the clones betraying them

 

[Idazmi]

iirc there was something about the war clouding the Jedi's judgement to react to the clones betraying them

That doesn't have any effect on the complete lack of army destroying feats when they were getting wiped out by blasters: all that does is surprise them. If they are as powerful as you guys are proposing, we should have seen things like a single Jedi wiping out a platoon of clones with a single force-push. We didn't.

 

[Idazmi]

(snip) Refer to my first point way back.

>it isn't when the star wars universe has hundreds of different writers with different Interpretations of power


> so that you can claim that average Jedi are literal "one man armies" who can single-handedly destroy a thousand battledroids with only their fists.

Quote me saying "Jedi can single handily take out thousands of droids with only their fist" or me saying "an average Jedi is One Man army"
If you cant then stop punching down a strawman.

Let's review. You said:

"the reason why the order 66 thing is PIS is because Jedi have literally been shown to charge into battle against thousands of droids aswell as deflecting multiple shots from all around."

Then I said:

"They've been shown doing this in the films and TCW? I don't think so. Not without an army of clones behind them."

Then You said:

"An Injured Anakin,Ahsoka, and Ayla with only 2 clones casually wrecked an entire battalion of droids, the only reason Ahsoka had to fall back was because she had to take care of the Village, Anakin (who was Injured btw) mirked through all of them until he got to the General."



^ Do you mean this, one, where they use a shield instead of a force barrier to survive the defoliator (which you'd have a hard time comparing to a nuke), and then defeat a few hundred droids who were basically ignoring them the entire time, marching and shooting past them, using no cover, no tactics, and no suppressing fire? In fact, this entire sequence is an anti-feat for Battle Droid combat effectiveness and intelligence. You know the Clones are superior, so the Clones defeating the Jedi where these droids failed is quite reasonable:



The Clones use encirclement tactics, suppressing fire, and have actual battlefield awareness. It's not hard to see the difference in effectiveness.

> gets outmaneuvered by several squads of Stormtroopers and Boba Fett on Bespin.

Doesn't get outmaneuvered, the stormtroopers have knowledge of him coming and purposely move away from him so that he can confront Vader in the carbonite chamber.

That's called "getting outmaneuvered".

> Star Wars Episode 8: Kylo doesn't just go and wipe out the resistance on Crait by himself

Why would he?

Because he expressly wanted to wipe out the Resistance. Couldn't he just cut through the door with his lightsaber and then casually massacre them all?

> despite being definitively more powerful than Luke.

She isn't.

Yes, she is, by virtue of being in a Dyad with Kylo. Luke himself was openly scared of her potential, along with Kylo's.

> Rey struggles against pursuing stormtroopers more than once

struggling???.

Literally, in that same scene, she goes on to casually play tug of war with a large transport and then blow it up with her lightning.

Notice how she doesn't just casually obliterate these Stormtroopers with a wave of the hand. And as for the transport:



She was clearly straining to pull the transport - you can see the strain on her face. Also, she's in a Force Dyad with the very person she's playing Tug-of-War with. The Force Dyad makes both of them more powerful to a point that makes them superior to normal Jedi and Sith by default. Unless you can find a clip of Luke doing something like this. Or Vader stopping the Millennium Falcon so easily.



He apparently couldn't.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Saw something talking about jedi's don't tank bullets or something

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/Nywzdtx1F2yW8nVuePN7og3K_6X9F3YZZ6XrHhiEh2UC7VvHRqK_Q1vqdihhnNCpY8YvPljZCP6P_klRlWWPVBM8nM14acNfI_5NTUglZJFisvz-LF7lw4jWrUg9dmFxitlV2RVdWg=s1600

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/U2te1Cr3WFrztypKO5cmeHZEvls-5PcQo8f-uja3Sfk2zmNvHZXQ6SIfABUyvOaK7Yt8x4PqavzBJ7n2aaNLNxZC4mEyqVy8SSDepfunuZvroQYVjRqVvTzpjHf9kOeaXC4QdqxeRQ=s1600

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/w-UlCPpfP-feI2TzCetAe08zR1Sy_2p_734_8TrTt5YktXWlodLRJNMnLbDJK1noiR_ttS0_qel899kb8Mrf380-YKsNYPPYacT68g1G86ChBnZV9r-ZX3CMF9PUKC1kypZHbXTR6A=s1600

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

> Do you mean this, one, where they use a shield instead of a force barrier to survive the defoliator (which you'd have a hard time comparing to a nuke)

quote me saying anything of the sort in regards to a nuke.

>and then defeat a few hundred droids who were basically ignoring them the entire time

1:25
1:48
2:10
2:58

If the blasters are flying torwards the Jedi they are not being Ignored.

> The Clones use encirclement tactics, suppressing fire, and have actual battlefield awareness. It's not hard to see the difference in effectiveness.

Do you mean like Stormtroopers do? the same stormtroopers that get butchered in legions by Padawan force users like Cal Kestis?

Also if clones are so amazing at killing Jedi without PIS then why does the Empire need an entire Organization dedicated to training force users into inquisitors to hunt down these "remaining" Jedi.
surely some clones should be able to do it.



>Yes, she is, by virtue of being in a Dyad with Kylo. Luke himself was openly scared of her potential, along with Kylo's.

Potential ≠ Power. Anakin had the most potential but he would be soundly wooped by Mace Widnu,Yoda and even Darth vader

> That's called "getting outmaneuvered".

"evade (an opponent) by moving faster or with greater agility."

Nah avoiding any conflict and outmaneuvering your enemy are two separate things with different connotations in the art of battle.

>Because he expressly wanted to wipe out the Resistance.

and why would he not lead his now New Military army to do that?

> Couldn't he just cut through the door with his lightsaber and then casually massacre them all?

this is you assuming the properties of the door, the same door the First order Thought they needed a literal mini death star tech-based canon to destroy.

Also, Kylo is probably the worst example you could have used for your argument, this is the same guy who thought Luke skywalker tanked multiple continuous shots from the At-M6's and concluded he could still kill his master Mano A Mano.

> Notice how she doesn't just casually obliterate these Stormtroopers with a wave of the hand

Because if she did then there would be no tension or excitement in the scene, the whole point of that plot point is to give us a speeder chase parallel to Return of the Jedi and accidentally get our heroes to fall into the sandpit where Occhi's dagger is. it's PIS and contradicted literally right after where Rey lifts a massive transport.

Also, Rey can casually lift giant serpents lmao, speeders will be nothing.

> She was clearly straining to pull the transport - you can see the strain on her face

that's her focusing, she didn't expect chewie to get captured so she does the first thing that comes to her mind. one she sets her mind to it she starts pulling it back before Kylo interferes and the tug of war starts.


> The Force Dyad makes both of them more powerful to a point that makes them superior to normal Jedi and Sith by default

normal Jedi? sure.

Vader and Luke?

No

> Unless you can find a clip of Luke doing something like this. Or Vader stopping the Millennium Falcon so easily.

Darth Vader pulls a shuttle out of the Sky in the Lords of the Sith novelization lol.


I'm noticing a pattern with some of your arguments, however before I ask ill wait for your response just for confirmation.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

As I said there's weird Ki-like stuff about them needing to put effort on focusing on the Force that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the raw power of the attack itself.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

As I said there's weird Ki-like stuff about them needing to put effort on focusing on the Force that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the raw power of the attack itself.

You're correct in one of the Darth Vader comics, I don't remember what issue, but they mention that Vader using the force to rebuild something screw by screw is far more impressive than him blasting said thing to pieces with the Force. because the former requires far greater control of the force for precision.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

There's also the fact that Jedi and Sith actually become far more powerful when they reach the elderly state. Because even when their body wrinkles, their experience and wisdom continues to grow. And this also makes their connection to the force much stronger.

 

[ByAsura]

Idk why I wasn't alerted to any of this discussion.

Anyway, the force users in 1-6 and the Clone Wars aren't portrayed as having anywhere near the same level of power that they possess in Disney media (deflecting blaster bolts, for example, was only shown once in ESB and Vader had to make physical contact with the bolts). It's not just Rey and Kylo, everyone has these kinds of feats in Disney Star Wars, especially Vader. The same goes with ships and vehicles.

Claiming he doesn't have the power to pull a shuttle out of the air (something he's actually outdone at least 2 in the comics and once in a novel) or overpower a blaster-resistant monster based on a few instances is like saying Vader isn't superhumanly fast because he doesn't simply catch up to everyone with force speed in the original Trilogy, despite the power really only manifesting itself in TPM and AotC.

By the way, is the one CRT per-verse rule still in place? I'd like to reopen this thread some time soon.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I don't know what's currently being discussed.

 

[ByAsura]

Basically, the extent of force amplification (as in striking strength and passive durability being equal to telekinetic AP).

The OP is also arguing that canon force-user's speed should be downgraded (rightly so, IMO).

We're also arguing if Palpatine was amped beyond his Endor levels in TRoS.

There's a lot of calculations and feats that have been addressed. So you should probably read through the entire thread in your own time.

 

[Idazmi]

Anyway, the force users in 1-6 and the Clone Wars aren't portrayed as having anywhere near the same level of power that they possess in Disney media (deflecting blaster bolts, for example, was only shown once in ESB and Vader had to make physical contact with the bolts). It's not just Rey and Kylo, everyone has these kinds of feats in Disney Star Wars, especially Vader.

You seem to have forgotten that Darth Vader is not a typical Force User either. In The Phantom Menace, we are shown that Anakin Skywalker, who became Darth Vader, has a Midichlorian count of "over 20,000" - a higher Midichorian count than any Jedi ever recorded, even higher than Master Yoda. The Midichorians are microscopic life-forms that live in all living cells, and they are explicitly what gives a Jedi their power in the Force:



The Midichorians are shown to be hereditary, with each Force-User's offspring inheriting the potential of their ancestor:



"...and then I saw Ben. My nephew. With that mighty Skywalker blood (...)" - Luke Skywalker, talking about Ben Solo.



"Why did the Emperor come for me? Why did he want to kill a child? Tell me." - Rey
"Because he saw what you would become. You don't just have power. You have his power. You're his granddaughter. You are a Palpatine." - Kylo Ren, originally named Ben Solo.

Keeping that in mind, Luke himself said he'd only ever seen power as great as Rey's in Kylo Ren. And as it turns out, Kylo and Rey are also a Dyad in the Force:

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Force_dyad - "The connection between Kylo Ren and Rey could cover a range of light-years, allowing them to see and hear each other from across the galaxy.[4] Their bond also gave them a clear sense of what the other felt, such as their fears as well as feelings of abandonment and solitude.[5] In combat, when the two formed the dyad and fought as one, their Force powers mirrored and amplified each other. Their bond grew stronger with every passing moment.[1]"

Emphasis mine. That means their powers are already incredibly high, being born of the two strongest known bloodlines, but they are also amplifying each others power, increasing continually. No matter how you choose to interpret that, they are - by statement and demonstration - far, FAR beyond normal Force Users in power. Back to your claim regarding Vader:





Darth Vader - who was established as able to deflect blaster shots without his lightsaber in the Original Trilogy - deflected exactly one blaster shot in Rogue One without using his lightsaber. Rogue One is a Disney film. Even though none of the Jedi did this during Order 66, when they were all being gunned down by the Clone Army, Order 66 is still canon, and Darth Vader's feats are in no way a contradiction to that canon because he is more powerful than all of them by statement and demonstration. Despite that, you'll notice that he doesn't just use the Force to stop the Tantive IV from escaping at the end of that scene.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

As this thread continues it seems goalpost keep getting moved.

So I'm going to try and post my last argument that was relevant to what I was arguing Intially.

Can Force users amp up their Physicals to much higher degrees such as their Durability without the need for Force Barries and if they can, can they do it passively or whatever. I'll make a response tomorrow because it's late this side.

 

[ByAsura]

The fact that Vader isn't a typical force user doesn't really have any relevance to my point. My point is just that his powers are greatly increased in subsequent moves and Disney cannon; either that, or the Millennium Falcon was just way too fast for him to stop in that scene. Plus, Vader has been defeated by Obi-Wan and Kirak Infl'a, so while he's powerful, he's nowhere near the level he could have been.

Ben is explicitly weaker than Vader in the first film (she's reading his mind, which causes him to back away in fear) and has trained far more than Rey. It's true that force-user's offspring inherit their power, but there's no indication his strength ever skyrockets to that level.

• REY: You...you're afraid...that you will never be as strong as... Darth Vader!

The context of Luke's quote likely refers to his force potential. This is substantiated by the Rise of Ren comic line. Note that Luke hasn't seen Ren for years and cut off his connection to the force, so he's referring to his Padawan self, meaning he doesn't even know his power level in

• LUKE: I've seen this raw strength only once before, in Ben Solo. It didn't scare me enough then. It does now.

The Force Dyad only works when they're combining it (it's an exponential amp, as you showed), which is why they can see over galactic distances (it's revealed in the 9th film that it was them, not Snoke). Palpatine explicitly states that the Dyad healed them, and Rey's shot was simply a burst of lightning.

That's literally just one Disney film. I was saying Disney media in general portrays him as way higher (meaning comics, novels, Fallen Order, etc). Tantive IV is also way larger than the Millennium Falcon, so that doesn't really disprove that he can stop shuttles (most of which are far smaller than the Falcon, by the way).

We never see a Jedi deflect a blaster bolt during Order 66, but look at the context of each of the deaths we do see. None of them were in the position (with the possible exception of Mundi) to deflect blaster bolts.

 

[Idazmi]

Ben is explicitly weaker than Vader in the first film (she's reading his mind, which causes him to back away in fear) and has trained far more than Rey. It's true that force-user's offspring inherit their power, but there's no indication his strength ever skyrockets to that level.

• REY: You...you're afraid...that you will never be as strong as... Darth Vader!

Kylo Ren's psychological issues and fears are a major plot point, but they have no impact on the feats that he actually demonstrates. He was able to overpower Luke with a single move, stopped a blaster shot in midair without contacting it at all, and generally shows himself to be exceptional throughout the films, despite his insecurities. Insecurities that would cripple lesser Force-sensitives, due to the Force requiring clarity of mind to access.

• The context of Luke's quote likely refers to his force potential. This is substantiated by the Rise of Ren comic line. Note that Luke hasn't seen Ren for years and cut off his connection to the force, so he's referring to his Padawan self, meaning he doesn't even know his power level in
  • LUKE: I've seen this raw strength only once before, in Ben Solo. It didn't scare me enough then. It does now.

Luke said "raw strength", not "raw potential". The fact that Kylo has great potential is obvious, but it doesn't suddenly make his existing feats lesser than they are.

That's literally just one Disney film. I was saying Disney media in general portrays him as way higher (meaning comics, novels, Fallen Order, etc). Tantive IV is also way larger than the Millennium Falcon, so that doesn't really disprove that he can stop shuttles (most of which are far smaller than the Falcon, by the way).

And what of Star Wars Rebels? That was made under Disney, and I don't remember Vader doing anything out-of-scale with his other appearances aside surviving the explosion of the Sith Temple:



At 24:28, the Sith Temple explodes with Vader under it. This is grossly out-of-scale with everything else he does in the series, to the point where he shouldn't be harmed by most weapons that people could actually carry into battle (though we already know that isn't the case - his armor can and has been harmed by blasters). Other than that, the strongest feat he demonstrates in the show is this:



At 5:54, he uses the Force to avoid being crushed by AT-STs - a feat that required considerable effort to accomplish. Kanan and Ezra were both surprised that this didn't kill him, and proceed to escape. In a shuttle. This feat is on a similar scale to this demonstration by Yoda, which also required considerable effort:

The Force Dyad only works when they're combining it (it's an exponential amp, as you showed), which is why they can see over galactic distances (it's revealed in the 9th film that it was them, not Snoke). Palpatine explicitly states that the Dyad healed them, and Rey's shot was simply a burst of lightning.

Rey's destruction of that transport was clearly a result of the Dyad amping her powers - that's why she didn't expect it to happen. Consider that Kylo was in her close proximity the whole time... not that the distance between them really matters.

We never see a Jedi deflect a blaster bolt during Order 66, but look at the context of each of the deaths we do see. None of them were in the position (with the possible exception of Mundi) to deflect blaster bolts.

I think that in a moment such as this, the Jedi would be doing whatever they can to survive. As far as I've seen in the films (including Disney's), Star Wars Clone Wars and Star Wars Rebels, only Vader has ever deflected blaster fire without his lightsaber - combined with all of the Jedi failing to bare-hand deflect during Order 66, that creates the distinct possibility that Vader's specific power is what enables him to do it.

 

[ByAsura]

Kylo never overpowered Luke, he just tried to attack him with his lightsaber and collapsed the hut they were in. In fact, Luke was able to effortlessly avoid each and every one of his moves while projecting himself from half-way across the galaxy, and effortlessly fight off the Knights of Ren singlehandedly (whereas Kylo had trouble fighting their leader even after he rebelled against Luke). He's exceptional, there's no denying that, but not to the level you're claiming. Kylo doesn't even utilise this dyad until episode 8.

I know he said raw strength, but he later confirms he meant potential. This is consistently implied throughout the film. Note Snoke's word chose; "Raw, untaimed power."

• LUKE: And I became a legend. For many years, there was balance.... and then I saw Ben. My nephew with that mighty Skywalker blood. And in my hubris, I thought I could train him, I could pass on my strengths. Han was Han about it, but Leia trusted me with her son. I took him, and a dozen students, and began a training temple. By the time I realized I was no match for the darkness rising in him, it was too late.
• SNOKE: Hmm. The mighty Kylo Ren. When I found you... I saw what all masters live to see. Raw, untamed power. And beyond that, something truly special. The potential of your bloodline. A new Vader. Now I fear... I was mistaken.
• SNOKE: Skywalker lives. The seed of the Jedi Order lives. As long as it does, hope lives in the galaxy. I thought you would be the one to snuff it out. Alas, you're no Vader. You're just a child in a mask.

And what of the comics, novels and Fallen Order? Here's a few examples: Vader parts dam water, Vader lifts a massive piece of machinery and stops a fortress from getting flooded, and Vader slams two U-wings together. Also, literally all you proved there was that Rebels Vader isn't "ordinary".

Yet Yoda lifts mountains in the comics, proving my point that Disney Force-Users >>>> Pre-Disney Force-Users (excluding Legends, obviously).

Unless Vader used a force barrier (something he and Cere Junda have done) to protect himself from the explosion. They show that Vader fell through the floor of the temple as well.

She didn't expect it to happen because lightning literally came out of her finger tips, which is the result of her being Palpatine's granddaughter. The novel confirms the was dumbfounded by the act itself and that the lightning was drawn out by her anger. Rey is also considerably more powerful than the previous episode due to training with Leia.

• Her anger at him for what he had done—and what he would do— reached a breaking point. From it erupted a power she didn’t realize she had. She almost screamed as it coursed from her hands, a shock of blue electricity that lanced upward and struck the transport like a lightning bolt. A lightning bolt might have fizzled against the ship’s shields, but this was no ordinary lightning bolt. It was the raw energy of the Force, directed by her anger. It went right through the shields into the reactor core. Voices cried out in the Force as the transport exploded. Rey staggered back from the fireball in the sky. Pieces of the ship crashed around her like meteors. She stood there in disbelief, not fully comprehending what had just happened.

The fact that Palpatine was restored by the Dyad and effortlessly overpowered both of them proves they're not on the same level as this Dyad.

Blaster deflection has only been done by Maul, Vader, Rey, Palpatine, etc, but my point was that none of them were in the position to do that. Notice they don't use force jump or speed either?

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

What I find absolutely hilarious about Kylo vs Vader right now is that SethTheProgrammer just did a Video about these two fighting. XD

 

[ArgosaxDespair]

stopped a blaster shot in midair without contacting it at all

I mean, I get where you're coming from but in a land where padawan Cal froze an entire group of clones and later on heavy machinery with the same ability, this is far from a decent feat.

 

[Idazmi]

I mean, I get where you're coming from but in a land where padawan Cal froze an entire group of clones and later on heavy machinery with the same ability, this is far from a decent feat.

If only the entire Jedi Order were as skilled as an average Padawan like Cal Kestis, am I right? Then they might have survived Order 66.

 

[ByAsura]

Or Kanan and Ezra, two characters who are nowhere near Jedi Masters.

These abilities aren't uncommon, they just weren't implemented in canon until after the original and prequel trilogies were created.