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Canon Star Wars: Revenge of the Downgrade

I didn't.

That's what I'm saying: they act like ion cannons, not laser cannons. Also, each blast was continuous, so every one would have had the same power as the ones that were disabling MC80 star cruisers. It's not a Large Island level feat.
 
> So it is capped at 9-A? Not Tier 7 or Tier 6?

It's capped at whatever tier the Force users are, because applying to the force to your body doesnt suddenly making hundreds of times weaker.
I'm not even sure what tier force users are going to be but the argument is that they can Amp themselves to a much higher degree

> Don't give a speech about Kylo being incompetent. He has more raw strength than Luke or Vader, and he is skilled enough to introduce holding blaster bolts in place into canon.

I'm not Im praising him, I have an entire section dedicated to him lol, but he does not have more strength than Luke or Vader, they are comparable, nor am I arguing any random fodder gets this, unless you want to argue that Kylo is the only one with passive force amp

>
Warlord Guattako starts getting the upper hand on Mace Windu in melee combat, before a spectator shoots him
AD-W4 matches a serious Mace Windu in melee combat, and defeats him by throwing a large ball of rubble at him
AD-W4 beats up Mace Windu before Mace wins using Force Push
Jedi Master gets killed by a space dog
Couple of Mandalorians beat up Obi Wan unconscious
Jedi Master fails to blitz fodder droids, and dies as a result
Former Jedi Master fails to blitz fodder clones, and dies as a result

We could go on and one, but that should illustrate the point.

1. Neither Warlord Guattako or AD-W4 or have anti feats, they scale to Mace's Reactions
2. Piel is Important to the Plot and needs to die in which to drive the tension that sets up Tarkin and Anakin's Mutual Trust, this is a pLot convience
3. Literally the Jedi you linked is called Imma Gun a Die, as in Im' going to die, this is PIS , regardless this one always makes me chuckle.
4. Kenobi is an outlier as we have consistently more feats of him beating the shit out of Mandos, but this scene needs to happen or else the entire arc falls apart.
5. Ferran Baar was not a former Jedi Master he was a former Padawan.

Also 30 examples vs little over 6, I think i illustrated my point better :^)


> Obi Wan never got directly hit, as I mentioned in the original post, nearby Tier 9 sized explosions from lasers that miss aren't relevant.

No this argument isnt relevant, unless the lasers that are being shot are quite a distance away that any damage would be negligible. in the same way you dont need to be literally sitting on a grenade to get killed by it.

> nearby Tier 9 sized explosions

There is no evidence for it being tier 9, your arguing DC, it's AP is currently 7-C or 8-B if revisions go through.


> everything about Palpatine

The Return of the Jedi novelization isnt canon.

anyway here's from the literal Return of the Jedi Script.

"
Luke stands still, as the Emperor reaches the bottom of thestairs. The
Emperor's laughter has turned to anger. He raises his arms toward Luke.

EMPEROR
If you will not be turned, you will be destroyed.

Blinding bolts of energy, evil lightning, shoot from the Emperor's
hands at Luke. Even in his surprise, the young Jedi tries to use the
Force to deflect them. At first he is half successful, but after a
moment the bolts of energy are coming with such speed and power the
young Jedi shrinks before them, his knees buckling. The wounded Vader
struggles to his feet, and moves to stand at his master's side.

EMPEROR
Young fool...only now, at the end, do you understand.

Luke is almost unconscious beneath the continuing assault of the
Emperor's lightning. He clutches a canister to keep from falling into
the bottomless shaft as the bolts tear through him.

EMPEROR
Your feeble skills are no match for the power of the dark side. You
have paid the price for
your lack of vision.

Luke writhes on the floor in unbearable pain, reaching weakly up toward
where Vader stands watching.

LUKE (groans)
Father, please. Help me.

Again Vader stands, watching Luke. He looks at his master, the Emperor,
then back to Luke on the floor.



>Skilled humanoids are Tier 9 too.

majority of people in star wars worth their salt are 9-A



> Why can't Force Users use this cosmic power to fly like Superman? If they can lift a spaceship, then it would make sense that lifting their much smaller weight to fly would be much easier right? There can't be some arbitrary limitation that nerfs certain telekinetic feats.

They could Potentially fly but because we dont have any feats of it we cant just add it, if you arguing that they should then thats a narrative question. the same way people with Gravity powers in fiction hardly ever use it to bend light or time in spite of the ability being able to. it's an oversight from the writers.
 
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Looking to the novelisation, it seems to support that Leia used other object to do this.
  • Leia reached out with her senses. She was surrounded by the remains of battle—but thin traceries of life remained around her, generated by the tiny microorganisms that lived, undetected, on and in bodies and even in the air. Their Force energy was ebbing, dying out or growing dormant, but she could sense that it formed a tenuous ladder back to the warship behind her. Leia asked the Force to help her ascend that ladder and return to the broken bridge. Where, faintly, she could see Resistance crewers gathered at an air lock.
The torpedo punched through the hull. What Leia survived was the depressurisation. However, the blast wave from the torpedo reached Kylo's fighter, while its plasma payload vaporized debris.
  • In a nanosecond it became the center of an expanding envelope of overpressurization that hurled crew members and equipment in all directions, shattered the viewports, and buckled the bulkheads separating the bridge from the rest of the ship. Then the torpedo’s payload of superheated plasma vaporized everything that the blast wave hadn’t flung into space, leaving behind a ruin of twisted, blackened metal, already cooling in the vacuum. The explosion buffeted Kylo in his cockpit. If he had known, he could have stopped the torpedo—freezing it in space with a thought. But he had been surprised.
IMO, they should have subsonic running speed (it's already on the profiles), but much higher combat speed.
 
Kenobi getting knocked out by Mandos or the dog thingy probably has a bit to do with getting taken on surprise as they sorta have to focus on the Force or some weird fiction stuff, but either way even so it's an outlier.

Leia and the explosion thingy will probably be 9-B at best if she isn't in the literal centre.
 
Regarding Palpatine doesn't the proposed High 6-C comes from him being confirmed WoG to be breaking past the ship's shields or something?
 
ByAsura said:
Looking to the novelisation, it seems to support that Leia used other object to do this.
  • Leia reached out with her senses. She was surrounded by the remains of battle—but thin traceries of life remained around her, generated by the tiny microorganisms that lived, undetected, on and in bodies and even in the air. Their Force energy was ebbing, dying out or growing dormant, but she could sense that it formed a tenuous ladder back to the warship behind her. Leia asked the Force to help her ascend that ladder and return to the broken bridge. Where, faintly, she could see Resistance crewers gathered at an air lock.
The torpedo punched through the hull. What Leia survived was the depressurisation. However, the blast wave from the torpedo reached Kylo's fighter, while its plasma payload vaporized debris.
  • In a nanosecond it became the center of an expanding envelope of overpressurization that hurled crew members and equipment in all directions, shattered the viewports, and buckled the bulkheads separating the bridge from the rest of the ship. Then the torpedo’s payload of superheated plasma vaporized everything that the blast wave hadn’t flung into space, leaving behind a ruin of twisted, blackened metal, already cooling in the vacuum. The explosion buffeted Kylo in his cockpit. If he had known, he could have stopped the torpedo—freezing it in space with a thought. But he had been surprised.
IMO, they should have subsonic running speed (it's already on the profiles), but much higher combat speed.
Click to expand...
The Kylo thing honestly sounds Impressive given the context
 
"Regarding Palpatine doesn't the proposed High 6-C comes from him being confirmed WoG to be breaking past the ship's shields or something?"

Matt Martin confirmed the resistance/citizen ships had shields. I'm not arguing they don't, I'm just saying it's like an ion cannon.
 
In Lords of the Sith, Darth Vader was launched into space, and he used the Force to pull himself toward a spacecraft
Using the Force, Vader stopped his rotation and reeled himself in toward the large, jagged, smoking hole his interceptor had torn in the transport’s hull. Loose hoses and electrical lines dangled from the edges of the opening, leaking gases and shooting sparks into space. A portion of his ship’s wing had survived the impact and was lodged in the bulkhead. The rest had been vaporized on impact.

In TRoS novelization, Rey considered it an achievement to be able to talk while floating during meditation, and there is a flashback where Luke was surprised that Leia is capable of levitating herself during meditation and admitted that he isn't able to do that. So Force Levitation is a difficult ability to do and requires a lot of concentration, though Mother Talzin can casually pull it off (Magick can also reanimate mummies and is apparently allows actual teleportation).

It does seem that Force Push takes significantly less effort and concentration than lifting objects.

From Lords of the Sith:
Vader, too, lifted a hand and reached out with the Force toward the other ship.

Vader enmeshed himself in the Force, in his seething, ever-present wrath, and used it to take hold of the freighter and drive the entire ship toward the ground. He grunted with the effort, his respirator increasing his rate of breathing to account for the exertion.

The ship, its damaged engines unable to compensate enough against the downward push of Vader's power, went nose-down and streaked into the ground. Vader imagined the screams of the pilots as they watched the forest race toward them. The ship disappeared behind the tree line and exploded into a fireball that reached above the forest's canopy and caused the ground to vibrate. A cloud of black smoke rose into the darkening sky. A second boom sounded behind him, his Master having driven the second ship into the ground the same way. The forest went silent for a moment in the wake of the explosions, with only Vader's breathing to disrupt the quiet, before the howls and chirps and squeals of Ryloth's fauna returned.

acOH14f.jpg


Shadowbokunohero said:
It's capped at whatever tier the Force users are, because applying to the force to your body doesnt suddenly making hundreds of times weaker.
I'm not even sure what tier force users are going to be but the argument is that they can Amp themselves to a much higher degree
Click to expand...

Citation? We might as well add Flight and Platform Creation to all Force User profiles.
Can you show me a physical amp to above Tier 9?

I'm not Im praising him, I have an entire section dedicated to him lol, but he does not have more strength than Luke or Vader, they are comparable, nor am I arguing any random fodder gets this, unless you want to argue that Kylo is the only one with passive force amp
Click to expand...

Luke said, referring to Rey, that the only other time he has seen such raw power is from Ben, which should be above him or Vader.
I am arguing for Tier 9 passive Force Amplification, and Tier 7 Force Barrier.

Neither Warlord Guattako or AD-W4 or have anti feats, they scale to Mace's Reactions
Ferran Baar was not a former Jedi Master he was a former Padawan.
Click to expand...

So "Force Amplification" is not necessary for MHS+ combat speed, while everyone is using immensely and massively slower projectiles?

The Tenth Brother is a former Jedi Master and he was chasing after Ferran Baar, before getting murked by clones.

Also 30 examples vs little over 6, I think i illustrated my point better :^)
Click to expand...

Could add a lot more but would be unnecessary; plus quality over quantity. 'Slightly faster' or 'Slightly stronger' is not MHS+ or Tier 7, and therefore a point for my proposal.

No this argument isnt relevant, unless the lasers that are being shot are quite a distance away that any damage would be negligible. in the same way you dont need to be literally sitting on a grenade to get killed by it.

There is no evidence for it being tier 9, your arguing DC, it's AP is currently 7-C or 8-B if revisions go through.
Click to expand...

Lasers aren't explosions, but they produce explosions. I mean, good luck proving that the tiny explosions produced is above Tier 9.

The Return of the Jedi novelization isnt canon.

anyway here's from the literal Return of the Jedi Script.
Click to expand...

Quoted from the script too, not the novelization. Anyway, it is clear that Palpatine was holding back and wanted to torture Luke, so the durability is unquantifiable.

They could Potentially fly but because we dont have any feats of it we cant just add it, if you arguing that they should then thats a narrative question. the same way people with Gravity powers in fiction hardly ever use it to bend light or time in spite of the ability being able to. it's an oversight from the writers.
Click to expand...

Well, it sounds to me that lifting oneself is more difficult than lifting other objects, and I provided evidence in the beginning of the comment. Is it possible that Force Amplification has similar restriction?

k2UDyD3.jpg
 
> In TRoS novelization, Rey considered it an achievement to be able to talk while floating during meditation, and there is a flashback where Luke was surprised that Leia is capable of levitating herself during meditation and admitted that he isn't able to do that. So Force Levitation is a difficult ability to do and requires a lot of concentration,

The context here is that Both Luke and Rey are surprised at how fast they have progressed, most notably Luke reacting to Leia, and neither of these feats Indicates it being extremely hard, considering the two references points we have are force users who accomplished the said feat in under a year.

> It does seem that Force Push takes significantly less effort and concentration than lifting objects.

Uhh Yeah?, not all Force Abilities use the same amount of effort, force users apply the force in a variety of ways and depending on the task it's going to be either easier or harder. in the same way you could likely damage a car pretty badly with a sledgehammer but your still going to need a jack to lift it.

This is a very confusing point your making, what are you trying to prove?, you do realize that correlating attack potency with lifting strength is a No NO? because of its applicational use.

> Can you show me a physical amp to above Tier 9?

I did you just refuse to acknowledge them.

>Luke said, referring to Rey, that the only other time he has seen such raw power is from Ben, which should be above him or Vader.

Raw power is in reference to Potential, the whole point of Kylo as a character is that he cant match up to his grandfather.

> Citation?

by literally just understanding what the force is and what it isn't, the force cant suddenly get weaker or stronger, the only thing that can change is the person who is using the force and how well their control over it is.


> So "Force Amplification" is not necessary for MHS+ combat speed, while everyone is using immensely and massively slower projectiles?

this is A loaded question and already assumes alot.

yeah because those two would feat wise be above everyone who are using those blasters. this is basic power scaling.

> The Tenth Brother is a former Jedi Master and he was chasing after Ferran Baar, before getting murked by clones.

yeah like the entire Jedi order, these are plot conviences. we have seen far weaker Jedi take on entire hoards of battledroids and Omni direction fire.

> sightly faster' or 'Slightly stronger' is not MHS+ or Tier 7, and therefore a point for my proposal.

yeah because if Jedi were constantly portrayed at their best you would have no tension in a story, in the same way, Superman doesn't blitz the shit out of street-level Villains but tussles around a bit before beating them up.

>lasers aren't explosions, but they produce explosions. I mean, good luck proving that the tiny explosions produced is above Tier 9.

I don't need to, we already have a calc


>it is clear that Palpatine was holding back and wanted to torture Luke, so the durability is unquantifiable.

Nope there is such a thing as a Low end

>Well, it sounds to me that lifting oneself is more difficult than lifting other objects, and I provided evidence in the beginning of the comment

I addressed this

>Is it possible that Force Amplification has similar restriction?

Lifting strength does not correlate or scale with Attack Potency.
 
This will be my last post, it feels like we are going in circles and I dont want to continue writing walls of text.
 
The canon ROTJ novel from 2017 confirms Luke only deflected casual blasts before Palpatine intensified the blasts to both torture and kill (meaning they could be at his highest power level by that point). It still puts him above Vader.

Everyone is right. This thread is heading in some strange directions.
 
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Alright, the proposals:
  • Downgrade of Palpatine and those who scale to him
  • Force Users' Combat Speed downgrade
  • Durability downgrade
  • Lightsaber revision
Do they make sense? If you have issues with them, state the reasons concisely so we can identify the main objections.
 
I agree with Shadow that there's some weird thing about them having to "focus" on the Force and straining doesn't necessarily mean an anti-feat imo.
 
Let's see

It seems to be unanimous that Karbin's feats are overstated (at least Eficiente and I agree, while nobody has vocally disagreed), and the lightsabers need to be revised (I think we should just delete the page and not mention it on the profiles, Spino says they should be Unknown, DDM thinks Large Building level+ makes sense, and basically everyone believes Kylo's saber isn't Island level).

The problem is force-amplified statistics and Palpatine being amped by the Dyad.
 
Alright, it should be more fruitful to discuss one topic at a time. Whether Palpatine is amped by the Force Dyad is smaller and more straight-forward, so lets start with that.

I would appreciate if those against the Palpatine downgrade would explain their position and/or rebuttal in detail, and if needed one sub-topic will be discussed at a time.
 
So what are the summarised conclusions so far here?
 
Nothing has exactly been determined.

I think we should just outright delete Karbin's page. He doesn't really have any feats other than being similar to Grievous and fighting a weakened Vader. Also, he was never truly a candidate to replace Vader, it was just one of Palpatine's elaborate plans.
 
Bump!

No need to delete Karbin's profile; we'll have to figure out a tier for General Grievous anyway, and Karbin will get the same rating.

Maybe @Matthew_Schroeder will make a rebuttal regarding the Force Dyad, and we can switch the topic to focus on that.
But for now lets switch to the more controversial topic:

Does Force Amplification massively increase physical strength speed thousands of times?

I argued that it is consistent with the canon verse that highly skilled characters and high-tech robots/cyborgs can keep up with Jedi masters, and it would be inconsistent for such characters to be this fast yet use the much slower blaster bolts.

I would also argue that some Force Powers are limited by the setting. So Rey who can do this less than a week after discovering the Force exists:
OrdinarySpicyAlligatorsnappingturtle-size_restricted.gif


Finds it difficult to self-levitate during meditation. When Leia demonstrated the ability to float during meditation to Luke, he considered it something he can't do even though he has a lot more experience and is training her. So on the same principle, we can't assume that the average Jedi Master can fly like Superman, and we can't assume that they can physically enhance themselves thousands of times over to Tier 7.

That is my perspective. Would appreciate input, and if possible suggestions on subtopics to discuss independently so the discussion doesn't get scattered.
 
Also apparently using the Force drains your power or something like that too, iirc it was the excuse for Obi-Wan not using Force Speed in TPM. So there's the whole thing about "focusing" on the Force that doesn't necessarily mean that's your maximum power level you can do.
 
Discussion on Force Amplification is important for power levels:
  1. Establishes whether Jedi defense is passive or requires the active creation of a barrier. The later makes tier 9 surprise attacks effective
  2. Establishes whether Jedi combat speed is at lightning speed, and whether Jedi Masters are dealing with opponents and projectiles who are hundreds if not over a thousand times slower
 
I'm very much not on the passive side of the argument

The Kylo example is good but it's one instance of a poorly trained (albeit prodigious) Force practitioner who's also mentally compromised nullifying an above average blaster when we have dozens of examples of Force Users (Of all levels of skill) being injured and threatened by blasters far weaker then Chewies (See Order 66)
 
Force manipulation is kind of like a far more complicated version of Ki Control; although it comes from External energy rather than internal. That being said, it's still the same premise of it being a universal energy source interchangeable with all powers whether telekinesis or superhuman physical characteristics. But Jedi or Sith must have a stable mind in order to utilize all their powers. Overuse of their powers can cause them to grow mentally unstable which may cause their reactions speeds or durability to drop exponentially.

So in other words, Jedi's struggling with weaker things are prone to CIS.
 
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