Canon Star Wars: Revenge of the Downgrade

[Shadowbokunohero]

I am aware that non-Force Users tangle with Force Users in Legends too, but there are two differences:

1. Legends have clear-cut statements that blaster bolts move at the speed of light, so both Jedi and non-Jedi can get impressive FTL calcs
2. If a Legend non-Force User was seen giving Jedi a good fight then he would scale with Jedi combat speed, unlike with Canon profiles/key

This is an extremely bizarre argument to make, so Legends characters are entirely abstained from their Anti feats because of their lightspeed statements? which in turn
is used as a basis for their calcs?.

If this is the standard by which we evaluate things then the Canon characters are even more deserving of their combat speed than their Legends counterparts as nearly all their reaction and speed feats come from actual calcs and feats. and FEATS>STATEMENTS

With this Methodolgy one could just counter your argument by implying that the people the Jedi fight have MHS Reactions.

I would like to clarify though that the Comparision I'm making between the two isn't in the interest of whataboutism nor moving the goal, the contrast is being made mostly because of your arguments in the OP and Follow up seem to divorce Canon in a way that makes it different from it's Legends ilk that comes off as Intentional or not as having double standards.

This is because I'm not unaware of the favoritism Legends has over the contemporary canon in the more niche side of the star wars Discussion that forums like these thrive one and thus are open to a lot more Bias where one Continuity is given far more leniency than another.

With that being said it is entirely possible to evaluate two things as objectively as you can even if you have a preference for another, and that having a favorite does not always lead to bias interpretation.

But I do think it's worth considering.

With that being regardless of anything I said above this is why I am against the idea of Subsonic Blaster speeds.

Here is a list of Calcs that put canon blaster speed far above Just subsonic

1. Mach 6
2. Mach 3
3. Mach 5

This is Ignoring some Visual stuff like Blasters being used in Combat against Geonosian Sonic blasters which as the name implies are sonic blasts and portrayed faster but with less AOE.

There are still a ton more (these are the more popular ones) , If you really wanted to you could even argue for MHS Blasters (ill leave that for now)
but either way Subsonic is something I will always be against in regards to blaster speed.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

ill tackle the striking strength and Physical amp stuff aswell, but I'd like to do it piece by piece to avoid to much wall of texts.

 

[Cropfist]

SW humans have enough small building level feats for 9-A.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

I think Canon Star Wars should be 9-A without the Force and Legends same, if not at least 9-B instead of 9-C.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Also the reason Legends Jango Fett scales to Jedi in terms of speed, is that in Legends he and Boba fights Jedi a lot more consistently than Canon, and have blaster deflection feats themselves regardless of scaling. In fact an notable difference is that in Legends Jango gave Mace Windu a decent fight while in Canon he got lolstomped. Legends Jango also killed like 7 weaker Jedi with his bare hands or something.

Canon Jango Fett's real feat of fighting a Force user is really just Obi-Wan Kenobi which can easily be argued that Obi-Wan needed answers and was holding back + outlier + PIS.

Same with Boba Fett, he has a lot of expanded lore in Legends of him keeping up with Jedi Masters but not so much in Canon, which is why Jango vs Obi-Wan can be dismissed as an outlier.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Also the reason Legends Jango Fett scales to Jedi in terms of speed, is that in Legends he and Boba fights Jedi a lot more consistently than Canon, and have blaster deflection feats themselves regardless of scaling. In fact an notable difference is that in Legends Jango gave Mace Windu a decent fight while in Canon he got lolstomped. Legends Jango also killed like 7 weaker Jedi with his bare hands or something.

Canon Jango Fett's real feat of fighting a Force user is really just Obi-Wan Kenobi which can easily be argued that Obi-Wan needed answers and was holding back + outlier + PIS.

Same with Boba Fett, he has a lot of expanded lore in Legends of him keeping up with Jedi Masters but not so much in Canon, which is why Jango vs Obi-Wan can be dismissed as an outlier.

Boba in Canon actually has some Impressive feats that would scale to Jango, including Blaster deflection.

 

[Catalyst75]

I am aware that non-Force Users tangle with Force Users in Legends too, but there are two differences:

1. Legends have clear-cut statements that blaster bolts move at the speed of light, so both Jedi and non-Jedi can get impressive FTL calcs
2. If a Legend non-Force User was seen giving Jedi a good fight then he would scale with Jedi combat speed, unlike with Canon profiles/key

This is an extremely bizarre argument to make, so Legends characters are entirely abstained from their Anti feats because of their lightspeed statements? which in turn
is used as a basis for their calcs?.

If this is the standard by which we evaluate things then the Canon characters are even more deserving of their combat speed than their Legends counterparts as nearly all their reaction and speed feats come from actual calcs and feats. and FEATS>STATEMENTS

With this Methodolgy one could just counter your argument by implying that the people the Jedi fight have MHS Reactions.

I would like to clarify though that the Comparision I'm making between the two isn't in the interest of whataboutism nor moving the goal, the contrast is being made mostly because of your arguments in the OP and Follow up seem to divorce Canon in a way that makes it different from it's Legends ilk that comes off as Intentional or not as having double standards.

This is because I'm not unaware of the favoritism Legends has over the contemporary canon in the more niche side of the star wars Discussion that forums like these thrive one and thus are open to a lot more Bias where one Continuity is given far more leniency than another.

This. One of the issues I have with Legends is its tendency to ignore the visual mediums - the films and the TV series, which are considered the highest levels of canon - and their depictions of events because they aren't "consistent" with the rest of Legends or even their own novelizations.

The OP seems to confirm this bias since the standard they're arguing should be used with the new Canon now includes the films and TV series, the very medium that is ignored with Legends scaling.

I recall hearing about Lucas' perspective on Legends - that he considers it a "parallel universe". Other authors and writers for the Legends EU have echoed the same as well, that the EU wasn't considered "official canon" even back then because the primary canon was always the Star Wars films and the Clone Wars TV series. As Dave Filoni said:

"The terminology of "Expanded Universe" was a careful one; it expanded on the world created in the core stories, but was never officially meant to be Star Wars canon, according to the Maker himself, George Lucas."

I found a place where all those comments were compiled as well, but you can't exactly correct what a community thinks.

The long and short of it is that the Legends continuity was never really part of the "official canon" like the Clone Wars TV series is. The argument that Obi-Wan vs. Jango is an "outlier" only applies to the Legends continuity where Jedi became treated as demi-gods, and everything was "scaled up" to be more "impressive", despite the inconsistencies generated with the official canon.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

> Oh wow, so canon Star Wars characters can just make a passive force barrier and casually tank those puny Wall level and Small Building level blaster shots.

They can amplify their Physical bodies to reduce damage from projectiles and energy-based attacks.

> but where can we find Force Amplification that allows Force Users to shrug-off blaster bolts hitting their body (thus making lightsaber deflection unneeded)

“How’s your wound?” Snoke asked, making no effort to hide the derision in his question.

“It’s nothing,” Kylo said.

That wasn’t true—the lightsaber slash to his face had been closed with microsutures, but Kylo would bear its scar for the rest of his life. And his abdomen ached where a bolt from Chewbacca’s bowcaster had struck—a blow that would have been instantly fatal if Kylo hadn’t instinctively contained its energy with the Force.
~The Last Jedi Novelization

Meaning Of Instinctively: without conscious thought; by natural instinct.

This feat might not sound Impressive in Isolation but you're talking about a Force User who was emotionally distraught and fractured to his core and distracted being able to passively negate a blaster bolt that literally ***** on the other blaster bolts we have seen. any Force user worth their salt that scales to and above Kylo would be able to no sell wall level to small building level attacks lol.

Force users can amplify their Physical stats with The Force, it's for this reason why we scale their dura and striking strength to their Telekinetic feats because the Force isn't a Superpower that grants specific abilities like a video game, it's a cosmic force that's literally everywhere and it's power is not going to suddenly fall off a cliff when you apply it to your body.

Force users consistently do this, the most obvious one being

1. Force Jump

If you can use the Force amp up your legs and increase the KE so you can leap great distances then you can apply this to your arms and striking strength. The Force doesn't discriminate.

But Just In Case.

1. "In the turbolift, doors shut, he stared down at the helmet cradled in his hands. This time the rage came without warning, a live thing that felt like it would burn and blister his very flesh. Kylo smashed the mask into the wall. The Force was howling inside him, giving him the strength to hammer his mask against the metal until it had been reduced to a twisted hunk of black and silver." ~ TLJ Novelization.


2. “Supreme Leader, don’t be distracted!” Hux urged. “Our goal is to kill the Resistance! They’re helpless in the mine, but every moment we waste—”

Kylo harnessed the Force, used it to seize Hux, and hurled him into the wall of the command shuttle’s cabin. Hard enough to shut him up, certainly, and maybe to kill him. He didn’t particularly care which." ~ TLJ Novelization

3. Kylo Ren uses the Force to Physically hold him in place as the Falcon's blast sends the troopers flying back.

4. Darth Vader uses the Force to amp up his Physical grip.
"Enmeshed in the Force, he caught the spike in his gauntleted fist and stopped it before it reached his armor. He grunted with pain, with exertion, the thick, muscular appendage of the giant creature straining against his Force-fueled strength. He was the stronger, and stared into her face as his lightsaber tore through her innards and his Master's lightning charred her flesh." ~ Darth Vader Lords of the Sith

5. Darth Vader and Palpatine uses the force to amp themselves and fight the Alien Queen's tentacles which is described to be as fast as a lightning strike, this would be consistent with their MHS reactions feats

" Moving almost as one, the two Sith Lords turned and spun around an unspoken central point, parrying, slashing, killing. Frustrated, the queen rushed toward them with surprising speed. Her huge body slammed into them both, knocking them backward. Quick as a lightning strike, she struck with snapping mandibles" ~ Darth vader Lords of the Sith.

6. Count Dooku uses the Force to amp himself

"Dooku had a knee planted firmly in Vos’s back, using the Force to augment his own not-inconsiderable strength. Vos couldn’t move. The count twisted the arm with which Vos still clutched his humming lightsaber, squeezing down with inhuman strength on the webbing between thumb and forefinger."

7. Vader Uses the Force to hold himself in place
"The blast wave slammed into the side of the shuttle, knocking it sidewise, carrying it along for tens of kilometers, and causing it to list sharply. Vader and the Emperor, seated, used the Force to hold their position, but the four members of the Royal Guard were thrown hard against the bulkhead." ~ Lords of the Sith

8. Oh Here Vader uses the Force to Amp up his hand to deflect a blaster bolt, No lightsaber, and no Force barrier needed.

"He looked back to the corridor. The figure in black raised a hand as a crimson bolt flashed toward him. The bolt hit his hand and bounced off like a tossed pebble, striking the corridor wall and sending flakes of ice crumbling to the floor." ~ Battlefront Twilight Company.

Does this in Rogue One too ( and Empire Strikes back)

9. Obi Wan Kenobi Survives some blaster volley from the Slave I Our Calculations put the Slave I's output in the Kiloton range currently and if we Use Asura's Calc we are still talking about City Block level Durability, something far ahead of their normal durability.

10. Luke Skywalker surviving Palpatine's Lightning laughs in the Face of anything Tier 9.



> Because Master-level Jedi constantly struggle against, and sometimes get their ass kicked, by bounty hunters, war lords, mercenaries, assassin droids, and the like. We are not talking about a couple of instances we can dismiss as outliers, we are talking about something that repeatedly happens again and again

This is Untrue and a massive over-exaggeration, Notable Jedi are Consistently portrayed as being extremely powerful compared to most enemies, with exceptions often being nameless fodder Jedi, Specific characters using unconventional attacks, circumstances that Limit the Jedi's strength or Instances where it's necessary for the Jedi to be nerfed so that the Plot can Progress. (PIS)

Force users Consistently outmatch most characters that are not other powerful force users.


1. Anakin Casually Overpowering Bariss Offee
2. Anakin beating the shit out of someone
3.Anakin Physically pushing Through Dooku's Force push
4.Anakin Casually Kicking a Commando Droid that it goes flying
5.Despite being tied down, kicks Cad Bane meters away
6.Casually catches a Magnaguards hand.
7.Anakin Blitzes an Assassin Droid
8. Anakin Blitzing an Assassin droid again
9.Anakin Casually ******** on an Assassin droid
10.Anakin Casually ******** on some Gamorrean guards
11.Obi Wan defeating some Bandits easily
12.Obi Wan Casually dunking on some commando droids
13.Kenobi ragdolling a Mandalorian
14.Kenobi overpowering a Dragonsnake
15.Kenobi dunking on Mandos with H2H part 1
16.Kenobi dunking on Mando's H2H Part 2
17.Kenobi Ragdolling Cade Bane Physically
18.Ahsoka kicking ass with nothing but a shield
19.Ahsoka Casually overpowering Cad Bane
20. Mace Windu choke slamming a battle droid
21.Windu dunking on some dudes
22.Mace Windu fighting two Gundarks
23.Master Yoda Blitzing
24.Yoda forcing two bandits to fight another with the Force
25.Maul roundhouse kicking Pre Vizla
26.Maul Dominating H2H
27.Maul Casually H2H beating Sugi the bounty hunter
28.Rey dunking on Palpatine's Elite Guards
29.Kylo Ren taking on a warrior army
30.Kylo Ren taking on Resistance Troopers like a Boss

 

[Hellbeast]

Except that's not what the argument was about

It's not that Force Users don't augment themselves - it's assuming that's active at all times

Even the Kylo examole admits it would have been a fatal wound and Kylo was notably impacted by the wound as seen in his battle with Rey and Finn

 

[Hellbeast]

Also two of your blaster bolt examples aren't for handheld blasters

One is for the AT TE and another is for the Ion Cannon used at Echo Base

Both are heavy artillery in the context of the verse and likely not at all comparable to typical blasters

You'd have to provide evidence of Force Users blocking those specifically

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Except that's not what the argument was about

It's not that Force Users don't augment themselves - it's assuming that's active at all times

Even the Kylo examole admits it would have been a fatal wound and Kylo was notably impacted by the wound as seen in his battle with Rey and Finn

Did you actually read my reply and OP's

 

[Hellbeast]

Yes

I'm pointing out the issues I have with it

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Alright then.

I'll point the Issues I have with your Issues with it then

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

I am for 9-A for canon. There is Ahsoka, Kylo, and Finn.

This is an extremely bizarre argument to make, so Legends characters are entirely abstained from their Anti feats because of their lightspeed statements? which in turn is used as a basis for their calcs?.

If this is the standard by which we evaluate things then the Canon characters are even more deserving of their combat speed than their Legends counterparts as nearly all their reaction and speed feats come from actual calcs and feats. and FEATS>STATEMENTS

With this Methodolgy one could just counter your argument by implying that the people the Jedi fight have MHS Reactions.

I would like to clarify though that the Comparision I'm making between the two isn't in the interest of whataboutism nor moving the goal, the contrast is being made mostly because of your arguments in the OP and Follow up seem to divorce Canon in a way that makes it different from it's Legends ilk that comes off as Intentional or not as having double standards.

This is because I'm not unaware of the favoritism Legends has over the contemporary canon in the more niche side of the star wars Discussion that forums like these thrive one and thus are open to a lot more Bias where one Continuity is given far more leniency than another.

With that being said it is entirely possible to evaluate two things as objectively as you can even if you have a preference for another, and that having a favorite does not always lead to bias interpretation.

But I do think it's worth considering.

The point isn't in the speed itself, but in the disparity of speed between Force Users and non-Force Users.

For Canon, skilled humanoids are placed at subsonic speed due to being able to react to blasters bolts (which are allegedly subsonic). Force Users are placed at MHS+ due to being able to react to lightning.
For Legends, both skilled humanoids and Force Users are placed at FTL due to both being able to react to light-speed blaster bolts (which are feats). No massive overwhelming blitz-level disparity in speed is assumed between the average skilled humanoid and the average Master-level Force User.

This means that Force Users vs non-Force Users outliers is largely solved for Legends.
For Canon outliers can be minimized by downgrading the combat speed of Force Users, or upgrading the combat speed of non-Jedi who fight Jedi. The later requires more assumptions, such as 'non-Force Users can react to lightning', so the Force User downgrade is preferable and more reasonable.

With that being regardless of anything I said above this is why I am against the idea of Subsonic Blaster speeds.

Here is a list of Calcs that put canon blaster speed far above Just subsonic

1. Mach 6
2. Mach 3
3. Mach 5

This is Ignoring some Visual stuff like Blasters being used in Combat against Geonosian Sonic blasters which as the name implies are sonic blasts and portrayed faster but with less AOE.

There are still a ton more (these are the more popular ones) , If you really wanted to you could even argue for MHS Blasters (ill leave that for now)
but either way Subsonic is something I will always be against in regards to blaster speed.

An upgrade for blaster bolt speed is definitely an option, but doesn't solve that there is a massive speed blitz gap unless the blaster bolts are MHS-MHS+.

The first calc is for an AT-TE walker's blaster bolt, which is close to the official projectile speed for fighters in the Squadron game. The issue is whether we can scale them to the speed of a hand-held blaster. It is mentioned that it looks like blaster carbines and walkers have the same projectile speed throughout the media, and thats it; it is an argument worth considering but I'll await for more input.

The second calc is actually above Mach 3000. Vastly faster than the official starfighter cannons, so either this is inconsistent, or the Twilight's sublight travel speed in the other episode is much higher than the combat speed for starfighters. The calc is also highly dependent on the background which can be unreliable for speed calcs.

The third calc is actually Mach 5000, and is for an ion cannon, and not necessarily reflective of hand-held blasters.

Also the reason Legends Jango Fett scales to Jedi in terms of speed, is that in Legends he and Boba fights Jedi a lot more consistently than Canon, and have blaster deflection feats themselves regardless of scaling. In fact an notable difference is that in Legends Jango gave Mace Windu a decent fight while in Canon he got lolstomped. Legends Jango also killed like 7 weaker Jedi with his bare hands or something.

Canon Jango Fett's real feat of fighting a Force user is really just Obi-Wan Kenobi which can easily be argued that Obi-Wan needed answers and was holding back + outlier + PIS.

Same with Boba Fett, he has a lot of expanded lore in Legends of him keeping up with Jedi Masters but not so much in Canon, which is why Jango vs Obi-Wan can be dismissed as an outlier.

To be fair to our man Jango, the reason he got stomped by Mace is because his jetpack was damaged and it malfunctioned when he tried to use it. Otherwise, he might have very well given Mace a good fight.

More understandable than Jango outshooting a Jedi Master (who thinks he can solo Count Dooku), or a Jedi Master getting stomped by Savage Opress before he got any Force training.

Boba got training from Cad Bane and Hondo, who provided their fair share of Jedi anti-feats, and he captured Count Dooku with his crew.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

> Except that's not what the argument was about,

It's not that Force Users don't augment themselves - it's assuming that's active at all times

"Oh wow, so canon Star Wars characters can just make a passive force barrier and casually tank those puny Wall level and Small Building level blaster shots."

I Adress this as one of my first replies and in my Kylo section

"but where can we find Force Amplification that allows Force Users to shrug-off blaster bolts hitting their body (thus making lightsaber deflection unneeded)

I Adress this

"Force Amplification is a thing, but it is jacked to absurd degrees that do not reflect the materials in canon."

I Adress this right after the Kylo section and point out examples number 9 and 10.

. "But the MHS+ combat speed part is non-sense in Disney Canon. Why?
Because Master-level Jedi constantly struggle against, and sometimes get their ass kicked, by bounty hunters, war lords, mercenaries, assassin droids, and the like. We are not talking about a couple of instances we can dismiss as outliers, we are talking about something that repeatedly happens again and again, and we have seen dozens of times throughout movies, cartoons, and comics."

I have an entire section addressing this.

So for durability "Force Amplification" is replaced by "Force Barrier", and Striking Strength is Wall Level just like their physical durability.

Is related to the Topic.

Every single thing I addressed here is related to what the Op argued, no idea what you mean by this is not what we are arguing.

 

[Hellbeast]

Actually one moment I'm writing a bit more first (Sorry just remembered something)

1) The very excerpt you've quoted acknowledges Kylo was in rage at his prior scene with Snoke likening it to "The Force howling within him"
Dark Side characters regularly use rage and anger to help empower themselves so this isn't a very good showing of "passive Force Enhancement" even ignoring the fact the Force is explicitly gifting him the strength to smash the mask

Also this is a Wall Level feat unless I'm missing something about his mask's alloy

2) Once again it specifically mentions harnessing the Force to perform this action, not that Kylo was automatically this strong

Also he even clarifies it only "maybe enough to kill him" not that it would, you know like if he struck him with Tier 8 or even high 9 force

3) That is the force from thrusters, not from a powerful blaster shot to kill

4) "Enmeshed"
Meaning to be entangled in something

Yeah the usage of that specific word tells me it's not a passive thing even ignoring the mention of Force Fueled strength and that's ignoring the pain = rage = empowerment thing the Sith have going on

Or the fact that Vader is grunting with pain and exertion so the writer is more intending this as a clear limitation to Vader's strength

5) Lightning Fast is textbook flowery language so not really

8) Yeah so is there a reason this is his strength and not just his application of Tutaminis, which we know exists because of the Scene with Yoda and Force Lightning

9) Compare the blasts here to the ones from the meteor feat

They're way weaker then the ones there and well it's not entirely hard to see why. Why would Boba (whom likely knows the ship's capabilities) hit a tiny metal platform with City Block busting power while on the platform and while his dad is still on the platform? It's stupid to assume this is a full powered blast from Slave so idk why you brought this up

It's clearly not a City Block Level feat for Kenobi by any means and it's likely unquantifiable

10) It also laughs in irrelevance because not only was Palpatine clearly doing this to torture the guy, Luke wasn't tanking this

He was instantly overpowered by the Lightning and had to cry for help from Vader

Force Amplification definitely exists but it's by no means a casual power and should probably be noted as such

No problem with 9-A Force Users but let's be honest

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

@ShadowWhoWalks
> The first calc is for an AT-TE walker's blaster bolt, which is close to the official projectile speed for fighters in the Squadron game. The issue is whether we can scale them to the speed of a hand-held blaster. It is mentioned that it looks like blaster carbines and walkers have the same projectile speed throughout the media, and thats it; it is an argument worth considering but I'll await for more input.

Star Wars in general rarely ever mention blaster speed comparisons, even so, Jedi still have no problem deflecting blaster from equally heavy hitters like these


> The second calc is actually above Mach 3000. Vastly faster than the official starfighter cannons, so either this is inconsistent, or the Twilight's sublight travel speed in the other episode is much higher than the combat speed for starfighters. The calc is also highly dependent on the background which can be unreliable for speed calcs.

I would take calcs over statements mostly because in a franchise where the narrative is the focus it's less likely authors know how powerful their things actually are. With ships that can go up to Sub Rel speeds in space, Mach 3000 is a lowball for starfighter canons.

The third calc is actually Mach 5000, and is for an ion cannon, and not necessarily reflective of hand-held blasters.

yeah, that's on me, It was posted in a rush which is why I only have the first digits, hench my MHS statements. Apologies.


> For Legends, both skilled humanoids and Force Users are placed at FTL due to both being able to react to light-speed blaster bolts (which are feats)

Which originates from a statement. my point is that we have calculations for the majority of the speeds in canon that we can apply to the users who have shown feats of dodging those speeds or powerscaling from them.

> Boba got training from Cad Bane and Hondo, who provided their fair share of Jedi anti-feats, and he captured Count Dooku with his crew.

most of these are PIS, most notably the capture of Count Dooku lol as there are feats that outright make this one look silly lol

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

@Hellbeast



> That is the force from thrusters, not from a powerful blaster shot to kill

never said blaster shot, I said blast from the Falcon, I'm referring to the Thrusters here not specifically laser blasts, perhaps I could have been clearer.

> The very excerpt you've quoted acknowledges Kylo was in rage at his prior scene with Snoke likening it to "The Force howling within him"
Dark Side characters regularly use rage and anger to help empower themselves so this isn't a very good showing of "passive Force Enhancement" even ignoring the fact the Force is explicitly gifting him the strength to smash the mask

Also this is a Wall Level feat unless I'm missing something about his mask's alloy

This argument isn't an appeal to passive force enhancement, it's an appeal to being able to enhance certain areas of the body with the force, this is following on my post about force power not falling off a cliff section.

The Passive thing is touched with chewie's bowcaster.



For every argument after this in regards to passive force powers see the argument above.

> Lightning Fast is textbook flowery language so not really

The context in which it is used argues otherwise as well as this being supported by their MHS reactions

> Yeah so is there a reason this is his strength and not just his application of Tutaminis, which we know exists because of the Scene with Yoda and Force Lightning

Tutaminis is legends only, Vader's application here is also drastically visually from what we see Yoda do.

>they're way weaker then the ones there and well it's not entirely hard to see why. Why would Boba (whom likely knows the ship's capabilities) hit a tiny metal platform with City Block busting power while on the platform and while his dad is still on the platform? It's stupid to assume this is a full powered blast from Slave so idk why you brought this up

This is assuming the weakest blast which is still 7-C, blast sizes changes depending on what they hit, this is a film thing as there is literally nothing to suggest that you can lower the Slave I's power to whatever amount nor anything else you suggested, this is you creating a solution in your head to what you see as a Inconsistency.

> also laughs in irrelevance because not only was Palpatine clearly doing this to torture the guy, Luke wasn't tanking this

yeah, good thing I said Survive and not tank, nice strawman though. either way Luke surviving an attack nearly hundreds and thousands of times his normal durability would still put him far above anything Tier 9.

Edit: my last post for today, hard to argue two people at once with huge walls of text.

 

[Eficiente]

1. The Sheev stuff was a long time coming. On top of the amp he could have just gotten stronger in the Force while being unable to use that power in his uncomfortable body, you don't need to do push ups to get stronger in the Force. Then he restored himself, he once more had the old body he had in the other movies and can use the ful powa of the Force, just like before, what about it? Doing so is no contradiction that points to the idea is him being just a powerful as always.

3. Agreed with the Karbin stuff, I kinda agree with the rest. They should all honestly be variable, we'll see what we do.

4. Their tiers are wanked, yes. Large Building level+ with no dura neg. seems like the best take.

 

[Hellbeast]

1) The passive thing that still horribly injured Kylo?

You've also ignored I brought so many of those examples up because they're also mentioned to be either under rage or as an intended limitation to their strength with their struggle

2) Pleas elaborate how lightning fast isn't hyperbole as it's so often used

Also the MHS Reactions that come from the Force Lightning currently under debate as to whether they're even natural lightning?

3) Really? I swear I've seen mentions of Tutaminis in canon lore

Even if not it's clearly just deflecting the attack rather then no selling the attack

4) 7-C?
There's been calculations for this feat in Tier 8 by Asura so even if we go with the weakest possible blast from the attack it's not Tier 7 or anywhere near it

Also my point wasn't blast sizes. My point was there's no major damage to the actual platform and the fact Boba has no reason to fire with full force

Also nothing evidences this? Are.... you ignoring all the points I just made?

5) Even if you meant survive it's clearly not a non casual blast from Palpatine by any means

Luke surviving an attack hundreds of times his normal durability would also be an outlier under these conditions

Also was it a strawman.

You argued he survived it

I argued it was irrelevant because he clearly wasn't going to survive the full blast?

 

[Hellbeast]

1. The Sheev stuff was a long time coming. On top of the amp he could have just gotten stronger in the Force while being unable to use that power in his uncomfortable body, you don't need to do push ups to get stronger in the Force. Then he restored himself, he once more had the old body he had in the other movies and can use the ful powa of the Force, just like before, what about it? Doing so is no contradiction that points to the idea is him being just a powerful as always.

3. Agreed with the Karbin stuff, I kinda agree with the rest. They should all honestly be variable, we'll see what we do.

4. Their tiers are wanked, yes. Large Building level+ with no dura neg. seems like the best take.

How would Palpatine had gotten stronger by not doing anything for 30 years?

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

ill address these before I go to Bed because I don't want leave the argument in bad faith.

1. The passive thing that still horribly injured Kylo?

Addressed this in my first post.

"This feat might not sound Impressive in Isolation but you're talking about a Force User who was emotionally distraught and fractured to his core and distracted being able to passively negate a blaster bolt that literally ***** on the other blaster bolts we have seen. any Force user worth their salt that scales to and above Kylo would be able to no sell wall level to small building level attacks lol."

2. >Also the MHS Reactions that come from the Force Lightning currently under debate as to whether they're even natural lightning?

This was covered earlier in the thread, unless our lightning standards change then it will still be comparable, also some of the calcs have MHS speeds without the need for lightning statements.

3. Really? I swear I've seen mentions of Tutaminis in canon lore

ill concede this argument if you can find me it

> There's been calculations for this feat in Tier 8 by Asura so even if we go with the weakest possible blast from the attack it's not Tier 7 or anywhere near it

I meantion Asura's calc in my Original post

>My point was there's no major damage to the actual platform

the same reason some blasters blow huge holes in steel walls and others leave small marks on Tree's or why a Dragonball character despite being planet level leave small city level craters. this is AOE thing. unless specified that Boba somehow lowered the energy then we cant assume he did.

> Boba has no reason to fire with full force

this assumes it's an Option

> Also was it a strawman.

yes because I never said Tank, tanking something and surviving something are entirely different beasts.

> Luke surviving an attack hundreds of times his normal durability would also be an outlier under these conditions

yes if we ignore that force amp is a thing

>I argued it was irrelevant because he clearly wasn't going to survive the full blast?

him being killed by it at some point doesnt mean it's Irrelevant, also I never said he was going to survive a full blast, I said he survived the dosage that Palpatine gave him up until when Vader yeets him down a shaft.

 

[Eficiente]

How would Palpatine had gotten stronger by not doing anything for 30 years?

Being evil, believing in the dark side, letting the hate flow through him. I really don't think getting stronger in the Force demands physical exercises, if that has been done for it then good, but I don't think it's a requirement.

 

[Hellbeast]

Literally none of that implies Palpatine would have grown overwhelmingly stronger prior to the Dyad

 

[Eficiente]

30 years is a lot, so yes. The evidence needs to show Pals being just as strong before it, not the other way.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

> Oh wow, so canon Star Wars characters can just make a passive force barrier and casually tank those puny Wall level and Small Building level blaster shots.

They can amplify their Physical bodies to reduce damage from projectiles and energy-based attacks.

Nice meme, but shifting the goal post.

As I said:

Force Amplification is a thing, but it is jacked to absurd degrees that do not reflect the materials in canon.

Meaning Of Instinctively: without conscious thought; by natural instinct.

This feat might not sound Impressive in Isolation but you're talking about a Force User who was emotionally distraught and fractured to his core and distracted being able to passively negate a blaster bolt that literally ***** on the other blaster bolts we have seen. any Force user worth their salt that scales to and above Kylo would be able to no sell wall level to small building level attacks lol.

Force users can amplify their Physical stats with The Force, it's for this reason why we scale their dura and striking strength to their Telekinetic feats because the Force isn't a Superpower that grants specific abilities like a video game, it's a cosmic force that's literally everywhere and it's power is not going to suddenly fall off a cliff when you apply it to your body.

So it is capped at 9-A? Not Tier 7 or Tier 6?

Don't give a speech about Kylo being incompetent. He has more raw strength than Luke or Vader, and he is skilled enough to introduce holding blaster bolts in place into canon.

Lol, if a few 9-A or 9-B shots hits Kylo he will die, and you are saying that he has a Tier what durability passively?

Why can't Force Users use this cosmic power to fly like Superman? If they can lift a spaceship, then it would make sense that lifting their much smaller weight to fly would be much easier right? There can't be some arbitrary limitation that nerfs certain telekinetic feats and applications after all.

---

Anyway, I'll go through a few points in your list briefly.

• You are assuming that Force Jump is mostly or purely muscle power, which is unjustified (especially with the Force Jump Obi Wan used to get the High Ground on Darth Maul). Either way, we see Tier 9 use muscle power to jump higher.
• Darth Vader upgrades his armor to be blaster resistant.
• Obi Wan never got directly hit, as I mentioned in the original post, nearby Tier 9 sized explosions from lasers that miss aren't relevant.
• The Emperor was holding back against Luke to torture him. From the transcript:

EMPEROR: Now, young Skywalker...you will die. Although it would not have seemed possible, the outpouring of bolts from the Emperor's fingers actually increases in intensity, the sound screaming through the room. Luke's body writhes in pain. Vader grabs the Emperor from behind, fighting for control of the robed figure despite the Dark Lord's weakened body and gravely weakened arm. The Emperor struggles in his embrace, his bolt- shooting hands now lifted high, away from Luke. Now the white lightning arcs back to strike at Vader. He stumbles with his load as the sparks rain off his helmet and flow down over his black cape. He holds his evil master high over his head and walks to the edge of the abyss at the central core of the throne room. With one final burst of his once awesome strength, Darth Vader hurls the Emperor's body into the bottomless shaft.

laughs in the Face of anything Tier 9

It seems that you are aware that you provided a gallery filled with Tier 9 feats.

This is Untrue and a massive over-exaggeration, Notable Jedi are Consistently portrayed as being extremely powerful compared to most enemies, with exceptions often being nameless fodder Jedi, Specific characters using unconventional attacks, circumstances that Limit the Jedi's strength or Instances where it's necessary for the Jedi to be nerfed so that the Plot can Progress. (PIS)

Force users Consistently outmatch most characters that are not other powerful force users.

Shifting the goal post again.
I am talking about skilled humanoids not fodder to begin with, and I am not denying that Force Users can have a slight speed and physical strength advantage against skilled humanoids. What you need to demonstrate is a MHS+ level speed blitz against a subsonic opponent (or a Mach 5 opponent if you don't want to argue that most of who we see fight Jedi are MHS+ too).



I am not saying that Jedi Masters won't destroy skilled humanoids if they theoretically use Force Telekinesis to its full extent. I am saying that they can't blitz stomp them. Can you prove me wrong?

Skilled humanoids are Tier 9 too.

Anyways, here are some examples of Jedi failing to blitz subsonic opponents.

Warlord Guattako starts getting the upper hand on Mace Windu in melee combat, before a spectator shoots him
AD-W4 matches a serious Mace Windu in melee combat, and defeats him by throwing a large ball of rubble at him
AD-W4 beats up Mace Windu before Mace wins using Force Push
Jedi Master gets killed by a space dog
Couple of Mandalorians beat up Obi Wan unconscious
Jedi Master fails to blitz fodder droids, and dies as a result
Former Jedi Master fails to blitz fodder clones, and dies as a result

We could go on and one, but that should illustrate the point.

---

Is it feasible to use the sniper shots from The Mandalorian episode 5 to calc blaster bolt speed?

 

[Hellbeast]

30 years is a lot, so yes. The evidence needs to show Pals being just as strong before it, not the other way.

This again

You made the claim he's stronger in that 30 year window so prove it

My counterpoint is he's done nothing that we know of in 30 years other then sensing Kylo's turn to the Knights of Ren

 

[Eficiente]

I emotionlessly think your logic's flawed and wrong. I won't responde to more of the same with more of the same, what makes both takes is just written above.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

The dinosaur guy is definitely not on Dooku's level, just because he tried to kill him doesn't mean he is.

Getting shot to death like that by Jango either proves he's really shit or is an outlier, as Ki-Adi-Mundi blocked a shitton more of blaster shots when taken on surprise before dying.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Also iirc there's something about using the Force draining a lot of your energy and you have to sorta "recharge", "focus" on the Force or some crap like that that might explain why Force users aren't using top Force strength all the time, especially when taken on surprise, but I'm not sure if that's Canon.

 

[ByAsura]

The problem with this new forum is that it's way harder to address points one-by-one.

"Regarding Force lightning being Natural Lightning. I and @Soldier_Blue blue talked about it a few years ago, it's been a while but I'm sure there is some more stuff."

What Soldier Blue actually showed is a bunch of properties that corresponded with electricity, like Lichtenberg figures. Factually, force lightning isn't cloud to ground and doesn't come from a realistic source.

"1. Mach 6 2. Mach 3 3. Mach 5"

The first one is from the explicitly hypersonic mass-driver cannon of an AT-TE, not a blaster bolt of any kind. The second one (which is mach 3270, not mach 3) uses extremely strange comparisons between the starfighters outside and the blasters, which makes no sense because you can see humans moving in real time, and it's a huge outlier for hand-held blasters (this even goes above a lot of the turbolaser feats from orbital bombardment in Star Wars). The third one is explicitly a cannon designed to fire into orbit, even turbolasers from the Supremacy and Chimera take much more time to travel across those distances and become ineffective against capital ship-grade shielding.

"9. Obi Wan Kenobi Survives some blaster volley from the Slave I Our Calculations put the Slave I's output in the Kiloton range currently and if we Use Asura's Calc we are still talking about City Block level Durability, something far ahead of their normal durability."

I agree on force amplification (Anakin stops a MagnaGuard's punch, which would require both strength and durability, and they explicitly use it to increase strength and speed), but these are blaster cannons. Both calculations are on the ship's laser cannons. However, these blaster cannons are capable of disabling a Delta-7B with a few shots, so they're in a similar league.

Was Palpatine Amped/Why it's not that impressive
Palpatine is logically way more powerful than before since he killed Rey, who was not just amped by a small collection of Jedi (at least two of whom were Palpatine-level, already), but a thousand.

However, Palpatine's lightning blast mostly disabled the ships like an ion cannon, rather than doing massive amounts of physical damage. Supporting this point, the novelization implies the crashing ships weren't crippled, rather their engines exploded. Even the mass-driver cannon of an AT-TE or laser cannons of a TIE Fighter are more than capable of destroying the engines of capital ships.

• Poe managed to right his X-wing, forgoing his display to rely on his own two eyes. But the larger capital ships required more advanced systems to stay aloft. The Tantive IV began to plummet toward the planet, and then one of its thrusters detonated. Poe was powerless to stop the blockade runner from exploding.

If an X-wing, B-wing or N-1 (a Phantom Menace-era craft) were hit with a blast capable of disabling capital ships, they'd be completely vaporized. We know this because turbolasers and even starfighter-grade laser cannons alone can instantly vaporize ships of similar durability. Even a smaller capital ship would be destroyed by this kind of blast, since Palatine's lightning kamehameha disabled hundreds of MC80, 80A, 85 and MC90 Star Cruisers.

Stance on Force Amplification
It's inconsistent at best. For example, Anakin/Vader, Windu and even Younglings have both overpowered Droids, Trandoshans and monsterous creatures that scale above blasters, yet they also struggle with 9-B bounty hunters. They can also tank blaster/laser cannon shots from Starfighters, and pry open the blaster-proof general Grievous' chest plate, yet they are typically killed by blasters.

I suggest giving these characters far higher striking strength with Force Amplification, but leaving the durability as it is since they can use force barriers and telekinesis to stop or redirect attacks.

 

[Hellbeast]

I emotionlessly think your logic's flawed and wrong. I won't responde to more of the same with more of the same, what makes both takes is just written above.

Likewise

I replied to you to let that be known

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

There was a short debate about blaster bolt speed in my blog

 

[ByAsura]

Blaster bolts/starfighter-grade laser cannons.

I actually have a lot of starfighter calcs here.

 

[Catalyst75]

Was Palpatine Amped/Why it's not that impressive
Palpatine is logically way more powerful than before since he killed Rey, who was not just amped by a small collection of Jedi (at least two of whom were Palpatine-level, already), but a thousand.

However, Palpatine's lightning blast mostly disabled the ships like an ion cannon, rather than doing massive amounts of physical damage. Supporting this point, the novelization implies the crashing ships weren't crippled, rather their engines exploded. Even the mass-driver cannon of an AT-TE or laser cannons of a TIE Fighter are more than capable of destroying the engines of capital ships.

• Poe managed to right his X-wing, forgoing his display to rely on his own two eyes. But the larger capital ships required more advanced systems to stay aloft. The Tantive IV began to plummet toward the planet, and then one of its thrusters detonated. Poe was powerless to stop the blockade runner from exploding.

If an X-wing, B-wing or N-1 (a Phantom Menace-era craft) were hit with a blast capable of disabling capital ships, they'd be completely vaporized. We know this because turbolasers and even starfighter-grade laser cannons alone can instantly vaporize ships of similar durability. Even a smaller capital ship would be destroyed by this kind of blast, since Palatine's lightning kamehameha disabled hundreds of MC80, 80A, 85 and MC90 Star Cruisers.

Palpatine's Force Lighting was spread out across tens of thousands of starships, including capital-scale ships. If his lightning was concentrated onto a single target, it is likely the results would be far more devastating upon the single target.

When it comes to speed of the lightning:

Just eye-balling the initial scene, where the lightning shoots into the sky, it takes at least half a second for it to reach its zenith and start arcing out towards the ships of the Galactic fleet, and MC75s are visible within the shot. Furthermore, the arcs of lightning themselves are quick to immediately branch out and start striking the ships of the fleet. What speeds are found from there depends on how the distances are calced and the time-frames used, but it should definitely scale to Rey being able to react to and block his lightning, or anyone else able to block and react to Palpatine's Force Lightning (potentially Dooku's as well, if the sole difference is taken to be power).

 

[ByAsura]

I don't think you understood what I said: the attack simply disabled the ships, even starfighters that would have been completely vaporized by blasts this powerful.

Dooku shouldn't scale. His lightning is clearly nowhere near this fast or powerful.

 

[Hellbeast]

I think His point was Palpatien was more going for AOE rather then targeting a specific fighter

 

[ByAsura]

I know what his point was, I'm just saying these kind of blasts still would have shredded weaker ships rather than disabling them.

What he actually did was release a continuous blasts of lightning that repeatedly struck its target. So each shot would have the same power.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

If we use calculated blaster speed that would be kinda calc stacking tho

 

[Catalyst75]

I don't think you understood what I said: the attack simply disabled the ships, even starfighters that would have been completely vaporized by blasts this powerful.

You missed what I said about the attack being spread out as well.

But once again, this is discussing the differences between a visual medium vs. the written medium.

I know what his point was, I'm just saying these kind of blasts still would have shredded weaker ships rather than disabling them.

Based on what, exactly? You're comparing Force Lightning to blasters, lasers and turbo-lasers when the two operate on fundamentally different levels. Within the film, each ship seen falling is disabled by brief bursts of branching Force Lightning, not a sustained blast. If Palpatine focused that power onto a single ship, it is very likely the results would have been the same, if not more destructive, than what Rey accidentally did to the First Order transport ship.