Can Perfect Cell's regen be negged by people comparable to him or slightly stronger?

[DragonEmperor23]

I was wondering, since Gohan was comparable to him and did so but this isn't listed as a weakness on his page.

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

BTW, the context is that we were on a versus thread where Cell was fighting someone with higher AP than Gohan had, and Gohan negged Cell's Regen via sheer AP (even though it would realistically take much more AP than that to surpass that level of Regen), so we're trying to decide whether the Regen would be negged or not.

I might actually be worth getting this sorted out now in case it comes up again in any other thread.

 

[The_Calaca]

I don't remember the instance where Gohan "negated" Cell's regen. He just blown him up until his core where his regenerative powers come from was vaporized.

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

Well, that does make more sense.

 

[The_Calaca]

The question comes to whether a 2x AP difference serves to vaporize him, and I remember someone was saying that's a Ki feat of being able to vaporize with such difference.

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

Oh yeah; I don't think we ever got that sorted out.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Yeah, sorry that was what I meant.

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

If it's a feature of Ki to be able to vaporize opponents with a really small gap, wouldn't it have Deconstruction?

 

[The_Calaca]

It's inconsistent, tbh. Because Gohan also overpowered Cell's KHH and didn't fully destroyed his body while Goku destroyed his upper body while being weaker than Cell and using a surprise attack.

But in the last clash a Cell half as strong as Gohan was nuked from existence despite the difference being much bigger in the first example and being on his favor in the second.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Goku was weaker, but Cell was holding back, was caught off guard and big blasts like Kamehameha and Galick Gun are much stronger than the user's normal power.

 

[Lord_Ace900]

Gohan was more than 2x AP I believe actually.

 

[Lord_Ace900]

From what Goku said Gohan was holding back because he didn't want to destroy the earth

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

I think the 2x comes from Gohan at 50% being comparable to Cell.

 

[Lightbuster30]

It's inconsistent, tbh. Because Gohan also overpowered Cell's KHH and didn't fully destroyed his body while Goku destroyed his upper body while being weaker than Cell and using a surprise attack.
But in the last clash a Cell half as strong as Gohan was nuked from existence despite the difference being much bigger in the first example and being on his favor in the second.

So basically this thread spawned from this one. We got into an argument over whether or not Cell's Regenerationn can be taxed if he gets hit/takes enough damage since Cell's Regenerationn is explicitly based on Piccolo's namekian Regenerationn, which is repeatedly shown to drain the users ki when used. Thus, in theory, if Cell regenerates enough times, it will reduce in effectivness from continual ki drain.

 

[The_Calaca]

He should be taxed, but the difference between Cell and Piccolo is clear. While Piccolo takes some effort and pants over a single arm, Cell can regenerate limbs without said effort so it should be overloaded after some time.

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

So, is 2x enough to destroy the core?

 

[The_Calaca]

I guess? I think it depends on the power used to attack it. Using hax like Matter Manipulation or some power that could potentially target cells like fire should be enough to destroy the core.

As for the AP difference, not sure. 2x seems to be PIS rather than a legit feat.

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

Well, that sucks.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

I think it had more to do with the fact that Kamehameha is a continuous blast. After the rest of Cell is stripped down, there's really nothing protecting the core so it also follows soon after.

 

[Lord_Ace900]

[[1]]


[[2]]

[[3]]

 

[Spinoirr]

Gohan was half power and he was still holding back to not destroy the earth until goku said "do it now!"

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Which always felt a bit dumb considering they are aiming their blasts perpendicular to the surface. It'll scrap some Earth off sure, but not much else.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I think regen only works against comparable or weaker opponents.

 

[Lord_Ace900]

Gohan was half power and he was still holding back to not destroy the earth until goku said "do it now!"

Him being half power was him holding back they are the same thing

 

[AKM sama]

Just the sheer AP collected at the mid point of their beam struggle was ultimately pushed toward Cell and that level of regen can be easily overcome by AP. How much AP difference? That's inconsistent and putting a value to it is ridiculous.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Okay, it has been a bit, so besides AKM, what is everyone's thoughts on how much AP is needed to obliterate Cell? I've heard things like it only taking a 2X difference or less than that, so I want to know what the general consensus is.

 

[Roun12]

If a 2x AP difference can destroy every cell in his body + the nucleus in his brain, then sure. I think the difference would probably have to be much higher though.

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

Honestly, this is a very weird case. 2x would realistically not be even nearly enough, but it was enough in the manga for no reason, so I'm really not sure myself.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Well, a full power kamehameha should realistically be stronger than the user normally, so their Dura would similarly be lower than a blast.

 

[Akreious]

Well we know Ki Blasts are capable of vaporization. Heck, if we wanna go Daizenshuu, there's multiple mentions of vaporization of stuff. So I'm fairly sure this is just an ability of Ki rather than a purely AP thing. Plus 2x Difference is sort of disingenuous since SS2 Gohan was also amped up via Rage Power so even though he might be 50% when struggling with Cell, we don't actually know his output when he finished Cell off.

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

If it's a feature of Ki to be able to vaporize opponents with a really small gap, shouldn't it have Deconstruction?

 

[Akreious]

If it's a feature of Ki to be able to vaporize opponents with a really small gap, shouldn't it have Deconstruction?

I'm not sure if it does it often enough for it to warrant the ability or if it would be considered an outlier for Ki Attacks given that Goku's first Kamehameha "merely" busted the side of a car rather than outright erase the door. Pretty much, much like Toriyama, it can do it when the plot calls for it and doesn't do it when the plot calls for it. I mean, Buu was reduced to vapour which is why he has Mid-High so there's a precident for Ki attacks vaporizing things.

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

So in the one chance Dragon Ball has of getting good hax, Toriyama's writting gets in the one. How fitting.

 

[Akreious]

I mean there's also the fact that Gohan didn't stop the beam once Cell died. Even after his beam utterly pasted Cell, Gohan kept going and we see his beam going into space. Given the nature of Manga Panels, Gohan could've been blasting Cell for quite awhile to 100% ensure his death rather than it being a weakness of Cell's regen.

 

[DMUA]

Headcanon here but,

I'm pretty sure what happened was Cell's natural Ki barriers were blown away by both him firing a Kamehameha then tanking one to the face after that was overpowered

We already know that the physical body by itself is weak in DB (gOkU gEtTiNg sHoT bY a gUn) so if you don't have your Ki ready to block, you're just a regular dude

In this case, a normal dude with Low-High would not survive a thousand supernovas by any stretch of the imagination

Of course none of that is really backed up by the scene but hey I'd like to think as much

 

[Lightbuster30]

Headcanon here but,
I'm pretty sure what happened was Cell's natural Ki barriers were blown away by both him firing a Kamehameha then tanking one to the face after that was overpowered

We already know that the physical body by itself is weak in DB (gOkU gEtTiNg sHoT bY a gUn) so if you don't have your Ki ready to block, you're just a regular dude

In this case, a normal dude with Low-High would not survive a thousand supernovas by any stretch of the imagination

Of course none of that is really backed up by the scene but hey I'd like to think as much

Ki doesn't enhance you durability via barriers, I don't think it even has natural barriers. it's just energy that enhances your overall stats. Lower your ki, you lower the power you get.

 

[DMUA]

Well, it's something like that

Whenever Goku has his guard down, he takes damage from hits that should do absolutely nothing to him normally, bullets, Krillin throwing an ordinary rock, Goku being shot by a laser

When they don't have their defenses ready, they're way weaker, fatigue included

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

Well, one of Goku's weaknesses is "He often drops his guard and leaves openings for his opponents whenever he gets distracted, lowering his durability", so DMUA could be on to something.

 

[DMB_1]

I always thought that vaporizing/atomizining/whatever something if it's weaker than you at least b y a sufficient amount, was just a property of Ki in Dragon Ball, kinda like Saber's Excaliblast from Fate.

Besides, characters in Dragon Ball cam make attacks even several times stronger than themselves if they charge their energy enough/for enough time.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Ki just atomizes shit, it doesn't mean his Regen got overwhelmed.