BSM Naruto vs Alive EMS Madara

[MinatoSparkle]

Not to mention that Madara stated his Perfect Susano'o is comparable to the Bijū in terms of destructive power, likely in reference to the only Bijū he has experience with, Kurama.
Also, base Edo Hashirama stated that he has more chakra than Bijū Mode Naruto.

In any case, the profiles have changed (again) due to the new calcs and changes that were implemented, so Hashirama has a big AP advantage with Wood Release now. Though he's much weaker than Naruto physically (for the time being anyway).

He didn't say he was only referring to his Base.

Wait what? I've been regularly checking Naruto (The Universe) discussions and didn't see any new major revisions. Darn, I haven't been sharp enough.

Also not sure what you're talking about. He's Small Country level with Wood Release (I'm guessing now that's upscaling from High 6-C+), while Naruto is Small Country level+ at max. Sure he needs to supercharge it to get it there, but it's there, and he can make a smaller charged Bijuudama in a pretty small window of time. His durability also massively upscales (SM) from a value that massively upscales (Juubi) from High 6-C+ (100% Kurama I assume), so he still has that advantage (not really sure WHY the Juubi is only High 6-C+ when being stronger than all 9 Bijuu combined would be Low 6-B).

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

He didn't say he was only referring to his Base.

He was in base when he made the statement, and he's referring to his own chakra reserves in comparison to another person. No need to make the added assumption that he was referring to Sage Mode as well.

Wait what? I've been regularly checking Naruto (The Universe) discussions and didn't see any new major revisions. Darn, I haven't been sharp enough.

It's the Bijū Dama calc thread that's been going on for like 4 months. It finally got concluded and applied.

Also not sure what you're talking about. He's Small Country level with Wood Release (I'm guessing now that's upscaling from High 6-C+), while Naruto is Small Country level+ at max. Sure he needs to supercharge it to get it there, but it's there,

It's there, but it's pretty useless in a spontaneous combat situation, which is probably why he never actually used it in combat like ever.

and he can make a smaller charged Bijuudama in a pretty small window of time.

That Bijū bomb you're referring to is the reason he's High 6-C in the first place, since it matched the combined TBB of 5 Bijū, so it has nothing to do with the Low 6-B+ value.

His durability also massively upscales (SM) from a value that massively upscales (Juubi) from High 6-C+ (100% Kurama I assume),

His durability doesn't scale to the Juubi anymore either.

so he still has that advantage (not really sure WHY the Juubi is only High 6-C+ when being stronger than all 9 Bijuu combined would be Low 6-B).

He is stronger than all of them combined, but without putting the charged TBB into account. I suppose you could argue for it, it's certainly likely that he's above their max output if you ask me. The only real issue with it is the fact he's missing the grand majority of Kurama and Gyūki's chakra, aka the ones responsible for the Low 6-B+ stuff in the first place.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

He was in base when he made the statement, and he's referring to his own chakra reserves in comparison to another person. No need to make the added assumption that he was referring to Sage Mode as well.

It's the Bijū Dama calc thread that's been going on for like 4 months. It finally got concluded and applied.

It's there, but it's pretty useless in a spontaneous combat situation, which is probably why he never actually used it in combat like ever.

That Bijū bomb you're referring to is the reason he's High 6-C in the first place, since it matched the combined TBB of 5 Bijū, so it has nothing to do with the Low 6-B+ value.

His durability doesn't scale to the Juubi anymore either.

He is stronger than all of them combined, but without putting the charged TBB into account. I suppose you could argue for it, it's certainly likely that he's above their max output if you ask me. The only real issue with it is the fact he's missing the grand majority of Kurama and Gyūki's chakra, aka the ones responsible for the Low 6-B+ stuff in the first place.

Eh, I guess you could argue it as that, but it seems weird to say his chakra was nearly identical when he knew Naruto's chakra was dogshit to his true limit.

Yeah I just searched through and found that

He could use clones to hold off Hashirama like his clones did against Madara and Obito while Naruto charges it up

But Kurama's normal Bijuudama scales 5x above their normal Bijuudamas, not their charged variants. Cause aren't the 64 gigaton bombs he scales 5x above these ones that are very much not the charged one they used against Naruto?

"(Withstood a blow from the First Form Jūbi. Even while low on chakra, he withstood and redirected an attack from the Jūbi, though he lost the edge of his tails. Bijū have been consistently shown to be capable of withstanding their own Bijū Bombs), higher with Sage Mode (Sage Mode greatly enhances one's durability)"

I mean even without taking the charged Bijuudama into account. Normal Kurama is 664 gigatons plus the 8 64 gigatons for each Bijuu is 1192 gigatons, or Low 6-B. But yeah, he should honestly scale to their charged Bijuudamas, especially since it's consistent with him taking no damage from their max power Bijuudama. And yeah he is missing that stuff, but the Juubi was only in his first stage when Kurama was talking about his power.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Eh, I guess you could argue it as that, but it seems weird to say his chakra was nearly identical when he knew Naruto's chakra was dogshit to his true limit.

I think it'd be weird to bring up him absorbing Nature Energy in a comparison about innate chakra reserves, but eh, to each their own I guess. But do keep in mind that Alive Hashirama can create constructs as strong as Prime Kurama in base, so him being a little bit above 50% Kurama as an Edo Tensei actually kinda makes sense.

Yeah I just searched through and found that

Noice.

He could use clones to hold off Hashirama like his clones did against Madara and Obito while Naruto charges it up

I mean......Hashirama can make clones of his own.

But Kurama's normal Bijuudama scales 5x above their normal Bijuudamas, not their charged variants. Cause aren't the 64 gigaton bombs he scales 5x above these ones that are very much not the charged one they used against Naruto?

Their charged variants don't have a calculation to scale to, also it's not like the 64 GT ones were fired instantly. They were charged for a little bit too.

"(Withstood a blow from the First Form Jūbi. Even while low on chakra, he withstood and redirected an attack from the Jūbi, though he lost the edge of his tails. Bijū have been consistently shown to be capable of withstanding their own Bijū Bombs), higher with Sage Mode (Sage Mode greatly enhances one's durability)"

It was decided that he should downscale from the Juubi for surviving his attacks, which is why he doesn't have the "+". He was clearly portrayed as weaker, and the TBB literally vaporized the portion of his tails that they made contact with.
Not to mention, it's very plausible for Naruto to survive a casual swat from the Juubi considering that the difference between Juubi's AP and Naruto's durability isn't as large as it used to be.
In any case, long story short is that Naruto doesn't scale to the Juubi atm, so even if Sage Mode upscaled him, he'll only be baseline High 6-C+.

I mean even without taking the charged Bijuudama into account. Normal Kurama is 664 gigatons plus the 8 64 gigatons for each Bijuu is 1192 gigatons, or Low 6-B. But yeah, he should honestly scale to their charged Bijuudamas, especially since it's consistent with him taking no damage from their max power Bijuudama. And yeah he is missing that stuff, but the Juubi was only in his first stage when Kurama was talking about his power.

He wouldn't scale to Prime Kurama since he wasn't part of his make-up.
As for the subsequent Juubi stages (2nd and 3rd), they do scale above the charged TBBs I think. It's just the 1st form that doesn't. And tbf, we're already being kinda generous with the "stronger than all the Bijū combined" statement, since it was never really specified to be about 1st form Juubi, and is more than likely in reference to the Full Juubi. If the 1st form scaled to its own calced feats, it'd be High 6-C (356+ GT), or barely above BM Naruto.
But still, I'm not really against the Juubi scaling to the charged TBB in AP tbf. AT THE VERY LEAST, I think it'd make sense for him to scale above it with his own charged TBBs, since we know he can charge them as well.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I think it'd be weird to bring up him absorbing Nature Energy in a comparison about innate chakra reserves, but eh, to each their own I guess. But do keep in mind that Alive Hashirama can create constructs as strong as Prime Kurama in base, so him being a little bit above 50% Kurama as an Edo Tensei actually kinda makes sense.

Noice.

I mean......Hashirama can make clones of his own.

Their charged variants don't have a calculation to scale to, also it's not like the 64 GT ones were fired instantly. They were charged for a little bit too.

It was decided that he should downscale from the Juubi for surviving his attacks, which is why he doesn't have the "+". He was clearly portrayed as weaker, and the TBB literally vaporized the portion of his tails that they made contact with.
Not to mention, it's very plausible for Naruto to survive a casual swat from the Juubi considering that the difference between Juubi's AP and Naruto's durability isn't as large as it used to be.
In any case, long story short is that Naruto doesn't scale to the Juubi atm, so even if Sage Mode upscaled him, he'll only be baseline High 6-C+.

He wouldn't scale to Prime Kurama since he wasn't part of his make-up.
As for the subsequent Juubi stages (2nd and 3rd), they do scale above the charged TBBs I think. It's just the 1st form that doesn't. And tbf, we're already being kinda generous with the "stronger than all the Bijū combined" statement, since it was never really specified to be about 1st form Juubi, and is more than likely in reference to the Full Juubi. If the 1st form scaled to its own calced feats, it'd be High 6-C (356+ GT), or barely above BM Naruto.
But still, I'm not really against the Juubi scaling to the charged TBB in AP tbf. AT THE VERY LEAST, I think it'd make sense for him to scale above it with his own charged TBBs, since we know he can charge them as well.

I suppose it does, although chakra volume isn't 1:1 with AP

He can, but Naruto has clearly shown being able to make much more, and his clones are arguably better

I know, they just scale higher than 64 gigatons. The 64 gigatons were charged a little, but they clearly weren't the supercahrged variant they later used.

The TBB vaporized a portion of his tails, but really only the tips, and the fact that despite casually tearing through all of their bijuudamas like they didn't even exist, the TBB only visibly damaged a small part of the Avatar shows it's durability is considerably greater than its AP.

I guess so, but like I said I don't think the Juubi only being High 6-C+ really makes sense.

Why would he be High 6-C+? Is he close enough to baseline that the amp can be assumed to boost him to there?

I mean, Kurama was explaining to Naruto about the Juubi while in his first form, so the statement likely refers to that version of him. Obviously the full Juubi is a lot stronger than just the addition of all 9 Bijuu's power, as that would make the Juubi less than twice as strong as 100% Kurama, which makes zero sense.

Wait, so if not referring to all 9 Bijuu at their prime, what is it referring to? Just the first 7 Bijuu+1/8th of Gyuki? Cause that value is less than High 6-C+. It's 456 gigatons. The 1st form Juubi should either be High 6-C or Low 6-B, I don't see any reason to assume High 6-C+.

Definitely.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I suppose it does, although chakra volume isn't 1:1 with AP

Well, that applies to both of them. The only way Naruto would have more AP than Hashirama with an equal or inferior chakra volume is if he had better chakra control, which I highly doubt. Either way, we can't prove which of them has the better chakra control, and the series never bothered with the specifics, so why should we? It feels like we're just dancing around the series clearly telling us that the guy who fought Prime Kurama and Prime Madara at once is simply stronger than a guy who's main source of power is 50% Kurama.

He can, but Naruto has clearly shown being able to make much more, and his clones are arguably better

No, Wood Clones were stated to actually be better. But enough about that, this thread is about Madara, not Hashirama. Madara's answer to the clones would simply be the Perfect Susano'o.

I know, they just scale higher than 64 gigatons. The 64 gigatons were charged a little, but they clearly weren't the supercahrged variant they later used.

It may be higher, but since we don't have a value to scale it to, nothing will change. And even then, the Bijū's charged combined TBB was still significantly smaller than Naruto and Gyūki's anyway.

The TBB vaporized a portion of his tails, but really only the tips, and the fact that despite casually tearing through all of their bijuudamas like they didn't even exist, the TBB only visibly damaged a small part of the Avatar shows it's durability is considerably greater than its AP.

Not really. They vaporized the tips because that's the only part they made direct contact with.

I guess so, but like I said I don't think the Juubi only being High 6-C+ really makes sense.

I can't help his calcs being kinda ass lol

Why would he be High 6-C+? Is he close enough to baseline that the amp can be assumed to boost him to there?

He's 322 GT, baseline is like 550 iirc. But anyway, I was just saying that even IF he hypothetically upscaled, he'd still be significantly weaker is all.

I mean, Kurama was explaining to Naruto about the Juubi while in his first form, so the statement likely refers to that version of him. Obviously the full Juubi is a lot stronger than just the addition of all 9 Bijuu's power, as that would make the Juubi less than twice as strong as 100% Kurama, which makes zero sense.

Wait, so if not referring to all 9 Bijuu at their prime, what is it referring to? Just the first 7 Bijuu+1/8th of Gyuki? Cause that value is less than High 6-C+. It's 456 gigatons. The 1st form Juubi should either be High 6-C or Low 6-B, I don't see any reason to assume High 6-C+.

Look, this whole thing might warrant its own discussion and its own thread. Remember, that Bijū Dama CRT was only a calc related thread for the most part. Values were simply updated and implemented. If you wanna make a CRT, that might be a good idea to sort everything out. But I suggest you wait for a little bit until the new Tenpachii calc gets posted since that could be a major upgrade.

 

[Kidkinsey]

so the chain is BSM=>Alive madara>edo madara>BM?

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

so the chain is BSM=>Alive madara>edo madara>BM?

No, it's currently Alive and Edo Madara's Perfect Susano'o (Low 6-B) > BSM (High 6-C) > BM (High 6-C) > Kurama Mode Naruto (6-C+) > Madara physically (High 7-A) (though this will change soon enough as well )

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Well, that applies to both of them. The only way Naruto would have more AP than Hashirama with an equal or inferior chakra volume is if he had better chakra control, which I highly doubt. Either way, we can't prove which of them has the better chakra control, and the series never bothered with the specifics, so why should we? It feels like we're just dancing around the series clearly telling us that the guy who fought Prime Kurama and Prime Madara at once is simply stronger than a guy who's main source of power is 50% Kurama.

No, Wood Clones were stated to actually be better. But enough about that, this thread is about Madara, not Hashirama. Madara's answer to the clones would simply be the Perfect Susano'o.

It may be higher, but since we don't have a value to scale it to, nothing will change. And even then, the Bijū's charged combined TBB was still significantly smaller than Naruto and Gyūki's anyway.

Not really. They vaporized the tips because that's the only part they made direct contact with.

I can't help his calcs being kinda ass lol

He's 322 GT, baseline is like 550 iirc. But anyway, I was just saying that even IF he hypothetically upscaled, he'd still be significantly weaker is all.

Look, this whole thing might warrant its own discussion and its own thread. Remember, that Bijū Dama CRT was only a calc related thread for the most part. Values were simply updated and implemented. If you wanna make a CRT, that might be a good idea to sort everything out. But I suggest you wait for a little bit until the new Tenpachii calc gets posted since that could be a major upgrade.

yeah, but his feats against Juubito do seem to speak to him being stronger than Hashirama. Plus he's a Perfect Jin not the same as 50% Kurama

Wood clones have more uses but they divide the user's chakra and are much weaker unlike Naruto's WA super clones. And yeah the PS would tear through the clones, but they could also potentially dodge the PS as Naruto has a speed advantage.

True

It coud've burned through the tails and completely incinerated the Avatar turning the team to dust, but it didn't.

not what I meant lol

? But the profile says he's High 6-C+

It's not really a CRT, just asking why the profile currently states he's High 6-C+ cause there is literally no scaling I can think of that puts him there.

No, it's currently Alive and Edo Madara's Perfect Susano'o (Low 6-B) > BSM (High 6-C) > BM (High 6-C) > Kurama Mode Naruto (6-C+) > Madara physically (High 7-A) (though this will change soon enough as well )

Ah man I have to get rid of all the votes again don't I?

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

? But the profile says he's High 6-C+

Who exactly are you referring to? 100% Kurama or 1st Form Jubi?

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Who exactly are you referring to? 100% Kurama or 1st Form Jubi?

1st form Juubi

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

1st form Juubi

1st Form is High 6-C+ in all its Stats via being Bijuus 1 to 8 (64.4 X 8) + 50% Kurama (64.4 X 5), 2nd Form and above scale to its own feats.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

1st Form is High 6-C+ in all its Stats via being Bijuus 1 to 8 (64.4 X 8) + 50% Kurama (64.4 X 5), 2nd Form and above scale to its own feats.

But...why? Where did Kurama ever mention that he's only the sum of all 9 Bijuu currently alive?

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

But...why? Where did Kurama ever mention that he's only the sum of all 9 Bijuu currently alive?

So you want to downgrade First Form Jubi then?

 

[MinatoSparkle]

So you want to downgrade First Form Jubi then?

No, I think it makes a lot more sense for the Juubi to bare minimum be the sum of all 9 Bijuu in their prime, AKA Low 6-B, and ideally Low 6-B+ scaling above Kurama's charged Bijuudama.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

No, I think it makes a lot more sense for the Juubi to bare minimum be the sum of all 9 Bijuu in their prime, AKA Low 6-B, and ideally Low 6-B+ scaling above Kurama's charged Bijuudama.

​

 

[Purgy]

Juubi's profile is wrong honestly since it's based on War Arc Juubi, who only absorbed a tiny portion of Kurama and a tentacle of Gyuki.

It should really be split into a War Arc Juubi and Kaguya/Prime form Juubi who had all the Biju.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

​

Tru, just saying

Juubi's profile is wrong honestly since it's based on War Arc Juubi, who only absorbed a tiny portion of Kurama and a tentacle of Gyuki.

It should really be split into a War Arc Juubi and Kaguya/Prime form Juubi who had all the Biju.

That key is the last one

 

[KarematsuShinjuu]

Imho while it's been cool seeing this thread finally go into some of the weird stuff in the Naruto profiles, we don't really need to see that stuff in versus battles from the same verse. This purely applies to this specific thread, and not the clear content revisions, at least in some form, needed here.

We know that firstly Naruto, when not in sage mode, is easily below Alive EMS Madara. Why? Because he's, in terms of chakra, below edo Hashirama. Alive Madara should, according to Hashirama, be above the edo mode he's fighting pretty evenly. Consistent with this is that Naruto who uses half of nine tails, should be below Madara who scales to the full deal pretty easily (he's above, somewhat, wood golem which was capable of catching the strongest attack from a full 9 tails. He's also quite above wood dragon, which was capable of physically restraining kurama.). Alive Madara was comfortably stronger than the Kyuubi, who should be above half KCM Naruto simply because Naruto doesn't use any techniques which are hax or not chakra intensive, so to speak (I.e. his amount of chakra is usually a good indicator of his AP).
But BSM Naruto has sage mode, which around the war arc (if we take it around the last, its far beyond Madara's level) was capable of being comparable to his KCM form at the very least. Thus BSM should be at least doubling his KCM AP, if not much more (I don't see a stated multiplier in the manga, but it should be quite significant). Thus by pure scaling Naruto should at the very least match if not exceed Madara.

Naruto's advantages: AP, probably
Madara's advantages: more skilled in almost every department

I'd say that unless there's a multiplier for sage mode which puts Naruto significantly above Madara, like 5 times or more, Madara should just take this on the virtue of being much more skilled and having comparable AP.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

I'd say that unless there's a multiplier for sage mode which puts Naruto significantly above Madara, like 5 times or more, Madara should just take this on the virtue of being much more skilled and having comparable AP.

Naruto Uzumaki
Key: Kurama Mode
Tier: 6-C, High 6-C with Kurama Avatar, up to Low 6-B with charged Bijū Bomb, higher with Sage Mode

Madara Uchiha
Key: Alive
Tier: At least High 7-A, Low 6-B with Perfect Susano'o

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Imho while it's been cool seeing this thread finally go into some of the weird stuff in the Naruto profiles, we don't really need to see that stuff in versus battles from the same verse. This purely applies to this specific thread, and not the clear content revisions, at least in some form, needed here.

We know that firstly Naruto, when not in sage mode, is easily below Alive EMS Madara. Why? Because he's, in terms of chakra, below edo Hashirama. Alive Madara should, according to Hashirama, be above the edo mode he's fighting pretty evenly. Consistent with this is that Naruto who uses half of nine tails, should be below Madara who scales to the full deal pretty easily (he's above, somewhat, wood golem which was capable of catching the strongest attack from a full 9 tails. He's also quite above wood dragon, which was capable of physically restraining kurama.). Alive Madara was comfortably stronger than the Kyuubi, who should be above half KCM Naruto simply because Naruto doesn't use any techniques which are hax or not chakra intensive, so to speak (I.e. his amount of chakra is usually a good indicator of his AP).
But BSM Naruto has sage mode, which around the war arc (if we take it around the last, its far beyond Madara's level) was capable of being comparable to his KCM form at the very least. Thus BSM should be at least doubling his KCM AP, if not much more (I don't see a stated multiplier in the manga, but it should be quite significant). Thus by pure scaling Naruto should at the very least match if not exceed Madara.

Naruto's advantages: AP, probably
Madara's advantages: more skilled in almost every department

I'd say that unless there's a multiplier for sage mode which puts Naruto significantly above Madara, like 5 times or more, Madara should just take this on the virtue of being much more skilled and having comparable AP.

Well SM SHOULD be 10x but the site doesn't accept that multiplier anymore. Also Naruto has the speed advantage cause Madara scales above KCM2 Naruto but BSM Naruto scales low end relative to Juubito. I'd also argue Naruto is more versatile and has greater combat smarts

 

[KarematsuShinjuu]

Well SM SHOULD be 10x

Scans?

Also Naruto has the speed advantage cause Madara scales above KCM2 Naruto but BSM Naruto scales low end relative to Juubito.

Edo Tobirama was keeping up with Juubito (speed wise) as well, and alive Tobirama (who should be faster) was considered the fastest shinobi by Madara. Even so it isn't as if Madara was significantly slower than Tobirama (they fought in the same wars, and we can assume if alive Madara wasn't capable of handling someone with his speed he'd be dead). Speed isn't really a significant advantage here, he's capable of handling someone that fast.

I'd also argue Naruto is more versatile

How? Naruto is less skilled, because Madara is more skilled in ninjutsu (he was capable of using all releases plus ying yang release while Naruto probably having better chakra control has only one release in BSM), taijutsu (Naruto has no feat in BSM comparable to Madara's own Taijutsu feats), genjutsu (duh), bukijutsu (something Naruto doesn't even know). Naruto is also less versatile compared to Madara who can again use all 5 releases plus ying yang release (correct me if I'm wrong but Madara used it to make white zetsu clones) and the only advantage in terms of jutsu he has over Madara is rasengan and rasenshuriken while Madara knows a ton of jutsu (yes he does know shadow clone jutsu, he used one to escape dying). Sasuke has kept up with Naruto over the years specifically because he as a sharingan user has had the versatility advantage over Naruto while always lagging in chakra, and it's silly to assume Madara would be less versatile than one of the most straightforward characters in the entire series.

and has greater combat smarts

You're telling me Naruto, who's never been seen as a combat genius by anyone, bruteforces his way through fights, has lived for like 17 years and has lived through an era of mostly peace and experienced like 1 war has more combat smarts than Madara, who's mastered all forms of jutsu, lived through an era of war his entire life, fought multiple battles in a time where that was the norm and led armies of Uchiha as their leader? Where exactly is that statement coming from? How exactly have you sussed out that Naruto is more skilled or "has better combat smarts" than the vastly more experienced Madara?

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Scans?

Edo Tobirama was keeping up with Juubito (speed wise) as well, and alive Tobirama (who should be faster) was considered the fastest shinobi by Madara. Even so it isn't as if Madara was significantly slower than Tobirama (they fought in the same wars, and we can assume if alive Madara wasn't capable of handling someone with his speed he'd be dead). Speed isn't really a significant advantage here, he's capable of handling someone that fast.

How? Naruto is less skilled, because Madara is more skilled in ninjutsu (he was capable of using all releases plus ying yang release while Naruto probably having better chakra control has only one release in BSM), taijutsu (Naruto has no feat in BSM comparable to Madara's own Taijutsu feats), genjutsu (duh), bukijutsu (something Naruto doesn't even know). Naruto is also less versatile compared to Madara who can again use all 5 releases plus ying yang release (correct me if I'm wrong but Madara used it to make white zetsu clones) and the only advantage in terms of jutsu he has over Madara is rasengan and rasenshuriken while Madara knows a ton of jutsu (yes he does know shadow clone jutsu, he used one to escape dying). Sasuke has kept up with Naruto over the years specifically because he as a sharingan user has had the versatility advantage over Naruto while always lagging in chakra, and it's silly to assume Madara would be less versatile than one of the most straightforward characters in the entire series.

You're telling me Naruto, who's never been seen as a combat genius by anyone, bruteforces his way through fights, has lived for like 17 years and has lived through an era of mostly peace and experienced like 1 war has more combat smarts than Madara, who's mastered all forms of jutsu, lived through an era of war his entire life, fought multiple battles in a time where that was the norm and led armies of Uchiha as their leader? Where exactly is that statement coming from? How exactly have you sussed out that Naruto is more skilled or "has better combat smarts" than the vastly more experienced Madara?

The curse mark is based on Jugo's SM and is a 10x multiplier

Also SM enhanced Jiraiya's fire style by more than 10x, further supporting this

He was still slower than him though, and only caught him when he was offguard. And speed alone isn't enough, but not only is BSM Naruto arguably faster than Tobirama, but he's FAR FAR stronger, more durable, has greater chakra reserves, and better sensory abilities.

Why is Naruto less skilled? He's far more skilled than you give him credit for. Anyways I'm not arguing skill, I'pm arguing versatility. While on paper Madara may be more versatile, in practice Naruto's fighting style is much more diverse than Madara's who pretty much spams Susanoo and fire style.

Are you sure you watched/read Naruto? Especially part 1?

This isn't even everything (I originally had over 50 pages but apparently only 20 is the max per post), but it should be more than enough to remind you that Naruto is no pushover when it comes to strategic intelligence. People in the series are often fooled into thinking he's dumb because of his outward demeanour, and it seems the same is true of fans. Madara may be more intelligent in terms of raw IQ because of his grand master plans and manipulation, but in battle he's pretty simplistic, relying on his superior raw power and skill to overwhelm opponents instead of actual plans like Naruto. There are of course exceptions, but they're far fewer and less impressive than Naruto.

 

[KarematsuShinjuu]

The curse mark is based on Jugo's SM and is a 10x multiplier

That's sort of iffy, considering how different sage modes are throughout Naruto, with what you train via mount Mobyoku and what Manda gives you being different, not to mention Hashirama's own sage mode being different. Plus curse seal might be based on Jugo's sage mode, but his sage mode is quite different from Naruto's own.

Also SM enhanced Jiraiya's fire style by more than 10x, further supporting this

Its describing the jutsu here much more than the sage mode itself (something like saying Giant Rasengans are X amount bigger than normal Rasengans). A different jutsu won't justify a 10x multiplier.

He was still slower than him though, and only caught him when he was offguard. And speed alone isn't enough, but not only is BSM Naruto arguably faster than Tobirama, but he's FAR FAR stronger, more durable, has greater chakra reserves, and better sensory abilities.

We're only discussing speed here. And Naruto was also slower than Juubito, Edo Tobirama is also slower than Tobirama, and what I'm trying to say here isn't that Madara is faster or slower, its that there isn't a significant difference in their speeds to make much of a difference either ways through pure in verse scaling.

Why is Naruto less skilled? He's far more skilled than you give him credit for.

Yes, but Madara is more skilled. Naruto is clearly skilled in Taijutsu and has excellent chakra control, but Madara was the pinnacle of shinobi. His Taijutsu has shown to be effective on thousands of combatants, he knows multiple jutsu releases and he obviously knows more genjutsu. Since I voted Madara because he's more skilled, I need to reaffirm that.

Anyways I'm not arguing skill, I'pm arguing versatility. While on paper Madara may be more versatile, in practice Naruto's fighting style is much more diverse than Madara's who pretty much spams Susanoo and fire style.

This is funny, because we have to take Madara on paper exactly because of the 20 pages below this.

Are you sure you watched/read Naruto? Especially part 1?

If we're getting into the actual series here, part 1 was vastly better written in terms of fights than almost all of Shippuden. But yes.

This isn't even everything (I originally had over 50 pages but apparently only 20 is the max per post), but it should be more than enough to remind you that Naruto is no pushover when it comes to strategic intelligence.

Point taken, but Madara is still Madara. I actually can't believe that you're comparing someone we've hardly seen for like 2 fights when he was alive in flashbacks (when he didn't have wood release) and have never gone into the mind of through another character. Madara clearly uses the best tools available to him. It's clearly seen when edo Madara uses rinnegan to wipe out the low level guys, forest emergence to wipe out the remaining people, wood clones as subterfuge when fighting the kage and storm release when fighting SPSM Naruto. But that's the thing. We've only seen him when he's performing jutsu he couldn't have performed when alive. Wood release is literally the most broken release in the hands of someone with massive amounts of chakra, and given how insanely versatile it is, edo Madara had no reason to use anything else (and it isn't as if he was forced to his limits when in edo form).

Madara may be more intelligent in terms of raw IQ because of his grand master plans and manipulation, but in battle he's pretty simplistic, relying on his superior raw power and skill to overwhelm opponents instead of actual plans like Naruto. There are of course exceptions, but they're far fewer and less impressive than Naruto.

You're completely ignoring the fact that the most time we spend in the mind of out of any character is Naruto. We barely know how Madara fought, let alone the details of what he thought when fighting. He's way more experienced in combat than Naruto, and just because we have evidence on one side that Naruto thinks when fighting on the virtue of being the protagonist doesn't mean no one else does. Yes, Naruto is smart, but that kind of analytical style was only seen heavily in Naruto and not Shippuden (note that the plans you've linked above only have one combat oriented big brain play actually in Shippuden, the pain fight specifically. Firstly the pain fight scans linked above aren't even that smart, they're almost all just standard "fooled ya" shadow clone stuff that is typical of clone users, almost everyone who uses clones has done a switcheroo, two of which were from Madara himself. The actual smart thing he did in that fight was to take care of Animal Path Pain in Gamabunta's stomach to bypass vision sharing and give him enough time to take care of her). The reason I'm bringing this up is not to trash Shippuden, it's to point out that the "thinking" and "planning" aspect of the shinobi battles was not something Shippuden focused on, and considering we've only seen one person fight Madara on equal terms (Hashirama) and that too in flashbacks or offscreen only (all other times even in edo or after reincarnation were complete stomps either ways so not much planning you can do there). He isn't the protagonist or even then the key being used here isn't even something we have any info on. From what we know Madara is definitely very intelligent and saying Naruto has the battle smarts advantage simply because he has more visible feats on the account of being the protagonist is akin to declaring that Tobirama doesn't have nipples simply because we've never seen them and we've seen Naruto's (and other characters) nips before, so Tobirama definitely has no nipples (please take this as an example of a demonstration of bias via protagonist focus and nothing else).
We clearly know that Madara is extremely intelligent, and that intelligence outside battle translates to inside it as well (see shikamaru), and furthermore he's way more versatile as well. Why would Naruto be smarter than one of the smartest characters in the series? If we're taking feats that only one position from a manga like Naruto is capable of showing consistently (the protagonist) then we should also take his debate skills into consideration to convince the other person to secede, because that's also something he has more than other people. There are of course exceptions, but they're far fewer and less impressive than Naruto. But debate skills, like the focus on Naruto's own battles rather than someone who appeared in two flashbacks in the key we're taking, are just advantages he has due to protagonist focus and nothing else. Yes, Naruto is smart, but there's little reason to assume that outside of protagonist focus he'd be more tactically gifted than someone who was a war commander, battled his entire life, considered to be the peak of Uchiha (a clan famous for being intelligent in and out of battle) and someone who plotted and schemed throughout the entire series being only superseded by Black Zetsu.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Naruto Uzumaki
Key: Kurama Mode
Tier: 6-C, High 6-C with Kurama Avatar, up to Low 6-B with charged Bijū Bomb, higher with Sage Mode

Madara Uchiha
Key: Alive
Tier: At least High 7-A, Low 6-B with Perfect Susano'o

Just to point out again, Madara cannot physically contend with Naruto.

He scales to 2.31 Gigatons while Naruto scales to 64.4 Gigatons, a 27X difference.

Madara's Perfect Susanoo is Baseline Low 6-B while the Kurama Avatar is 322 Gigatons, a 3X difference.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

That's sort of iffy, considering how different sage modes are throughout Naruto, with what you train via mount Mobyoku and what Manda gives you being different, not to mention Hashirama's own sage mode being different. Plus curse seal might be based on Jugo's sage mode, but his sage mode is quite different from Naruto's own.

Its describing the jutsu here much more than the sage mode itself (something like saying Giant Rasengans are X amount bigger than normal Rasengans). A different jutsu won't justify a 10x multiplier.

We're only discussing speed here. And Naruto was also slower than Juubito, Edo Tobirama is also slower than Tobirama, and what I'm trying to say here isn't that Madara is faster or slower, its that there isn't a significant difference in their speeds to make much of a difference either ways through pure in verse scaling.

Yes, but Madara is more skilled. Naruto is clearly skilled in Taijutsu and has excellent chakra control, but Madara was the pinnacle of shinobi. His Taijutsu has shown to be effective on thousands of combatants, he knows multiple jutsu releases and he obviously knows more genjutsu. Since I voted Madara because he's more skilled, I need to reaffirm that.

This is funny, because we have to take Madara on paper exactly because of the 20 pages below this.

If we're getting into the actual series here, part 1 was vastly better written in terms of fights than almost all of Shippuden. But yes.

Point taken, but Madara is still Madara. I actually can't believe that you're comparing someone we've hardly seen for like 2 fights when he was alive in flashbacks (when he didn't have wood release) and have never gone into the mind of through another character. Madara clearly uses the best tools available to him. It's clearly seen when edo Madara uses rinnegan to wipe out the low level guys, forest emergence to wipe out the remaining people, wood clones as subterfuge when fighting the kage and storm release when fighting SPSM Naruto. But that's the thing. We've only seen him when he's performing jutsu he couldn't have performed when alive. Wood release is literally the most broken release in the hands of someone with massive amounts of chakra, and given how insanely versatile it is, edo Madara had no reason to use anything else (and it isn't as if he was forced to his limits when in edo form).

You're completely ignoring the fact that the most time we spend in the mind of out of any character is Naruto. We barely know how Madara fought, let alone the details of what he thought when fighting. He's way more experienced in combat than Naruto, and just because we have evidence on one side that Naruto thinks when fighting on the virtue of being the protagonist doesn't mean no one else does. Yes, Naruto is smart, but that kind of analytical style was only seen heavily in Naruto and not Shippuden (note that the plans you've linked above only have one combat oriented big brain play actually in Shippuden, the pain fight specifically. Firstly the pain fight scans linked above aren't even that smart, they're almost all just standard "fooled ya" shadow clone stuff that is typical of clone users, almost everyone who uses clones has done a switcheroo, two of which were from Madara himself. The actual smart thing he did in that fight was to take care of Animal Path Pain in Gamabunta's stomach to bypass vision sharing and give him enough time to take care of her). The reason I'm bringing this up is not to trash Shippuden, it's to point out that the "thinking" and "planning" aspect of the shinobi battles was not something Shippuden focused on, and considering we've only seen one person fight Madara on equal terms (Hashirama) and that too in flashbacks or offscreen only (all other times even in edo or after reincarnation were complete stomps either ways so not much planning you can do there). He isn't the protagonist or even then the key being used here isn't even something we have any info on. From what we know Madara is definitely very intelligent and saying Naruto has the battle smarts advantage simply because he has more visible feats on the account of being the protagonist is akin to declaring that Tobirama doesn't have nipples simply because we've never seen them and we've seen Naruto's (and other characters) nips before, so Tobirama definitely has no nipples (please take this as an example of a demonstration of bias via protagonist focus and nothing else).
We clearly know that Madara is extremely intelligent, and that intelligence outside battle translates to inside it as well (see shikamaru), and furthermore he's way more versatile as well. Why would Naruto be smarter than one of the smartest characters in the series? If we're taking feats that only one position from a manga like Naruto is capable of showing consistently (the protagonist) then we should also take his debate skills into consideration to convince the other person to secede, because that's also something he has more than other people. There are of course exceptions, but they're far fewer and less impressive than Naruto. But debate skills, like the focus on Naruto's own battles rather than someone who appeared in two flashbacks in the key we're taking, are just advantages he has due to protagonist focus and nothing else. Yes, Naruto is smart, but there's little reason to assume that outside of protagonist focus he'd be more tactically gifted than someone who was a war commander, battled his entire life, considered to be the peak of Uchiha (a clan famous for being intelligent in and out of battle) and someone who plotted and schemed throughout the entire series being only superseded by Black Zetsu.

Sorry for late reply, I forgot about this

But Jugo's version of SM is inferior as it's untrained and imperfect.

Sage Mode amps stats evenly. If it makes a jutsu more than 10x stronger, it makes all his jutsu 10x stronger and his attacks more than 10x stronger.

Juubito~>BSM Naruto~>Tobirama>EMS Madara>Edo Madara~KCM2 Naruto. It's not a massive difference, but it's enough to be a factor.

Hebi Sasuke also no diffed 1000 sound ninja. Stomping an army of fodder isn't really as impressive a feat as a lot of things these two have done. And yeah he's better at genjutsu but genjutsu will be ineffective on Naruto cause he's a Perfect Jinchuriki. Plus Naruto may be able to summong Fukasaku and Shima and use Frog Song, which is arguably better than Madara's genjutsu showings.

No, Madara's feats matter more than his ability on paper. It's an in character battle after all.

Not sure about vastly better but whatever.

Madara only ever used absorption, and rarely. He used deep forest emergence because he wanted to test out his new powers. Using wood clones as subterfuge is cool, but still not at the level of some of Naruto's tactics. Storm release isn't even a tactic. Also, the reason he may have not used many of his Alive abilities is exactly because his Alive arsenal besides his Sharingan abilities and fire style aren't that impressive.

Even Naruto's purely Shippuden tactical feats outshine Madara's though. That's not to say Madara is dumb, but he's never really had to rely on thinking in battle much, because his raw power is enough to stomp just about anyone, and all his battles with Hashirama were mech battles that don't rely much on intelligence. The Tobirama example doesn't work because we KNOW all humans have nipples, but the same assumption can't be made for battle smarts.

Not necessarily. Sakura was incredibly book smart and was one of the only people to pass the Chunin Exams written test without cheating, and has plenty more showings like that, but in battle she usually has a simple approach. Also is Madara far more versatile? Is he really? Naruto has shadow clones, SM, KCM, KCM2, BSM, Rasengan, Giant Rasengan, Massive Rasengan, Wind Style Rasengan, Rasenshuriken, Massive Rasenshuriken, Massive Rasengan Mega Barrage, Frog Kata, Frog Slap, sensory abilities both via SM and KCM, Summoning jutsu, Sexy jutsu, Harem jutsu, Reverse Harem jutsu, Mini Rasenshuriken, Bijuudama, Super Mini Bijuudama, Rasenrengan, Nine Tailed Rasengan, the Kurama Avatar, the ability to manifest individual parts of the Avatar, Planetary Rasengan, Spiralling Absorption Sphere, Spiralling Strife Spheres, Uzumaki 2K barrage,

No, actually, Naruto's debating skills are amazing. There's a reason he talk no jutsud so many people that seem so hard set in their ways.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

bump, just a reminder that the votes prior to Naruto being downgraded were removed, so pls revote.

 

[KarematsuShinjuu]

Voting Madara for reasons extensively discussed above; since Naruto got a downgrade that just convinced me more lol

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Voting Madara for reasons extensively discussed above; since Naruto got a downgrade that just convinced me more lol

Uh...well he didn't get another downgrade after the discussion above, I'm talking about the same Naruto.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

bump

 

[MinatoSparkle]

bump

 

[MinatoSparkle]

bump

 

[MinatoSparkle]

bump

 

[MinatoSparkle]

bump

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Bump

 

[MinatoSparkle]

bump

 

[MinatoSparkle]

bump

 

[MinatoSparkle]

bump