That's sort of iffy, considering how different sage modes are throughout Naruto, with what you train via mount Mobyoku and what Manda gives you being different, not to mention Hashirama's own sage mode being different. Plus curse seal might be based on Jugo's sage mode, but his sage mode is quite different from Naruto's own.
Its describing the jutsu here much more than the sage mode itself (something like saying Giant Rasengans are X amount bigger than normal Rasengans). A different jutsu won't justify a 10x multiplier.
We're only discussing speed here. And Naruto was also slower than Juubito, Edo Tobirama is also slower than Tobirama, and what I'm trying to say here isn't that Madara is faster or slower, its that there isn't a significant difference in their speeds to make much of a difference either ways through pure in verse scaling.
Yes, but Madara is more skilled. Naruto is clearly skilled in Taijutsu and has excellent chakra control, but Madara was the pinnacle of shinobi. His Taijutsu has shown to be effective on thousands of combatants, he knows multiple jutsu releases and he obviously knows more genjutsu. Since I voted Madara because he's more skilled, I need to reaffirm that.
This is funny, because we have to take Madara on paper exactly because of the 20 pages below this.
If we're getting into the actual series here, part 1 was vastly better written in terms of fights than almost all of Shippuden. But yes.
Point taken, but Madara is still Madara. I actually can't believe that you're comparing someone we've hardly seen for like 2 fights when he was alive in flashbacks (when he didn't have wood release) and have never gone into the mind of through another character. Madara clearly uses the best tools available to him. It's clearly seen when edo Madara uses rinnegan to wipe out the low level guys, forest emergence to wipe out the remaining people, wood clones as subterfuge when fighting the kage and storm release when fighting SPSM Naruto. But that's the thing. We've only seen him when he's performing jutsu he couldn't have performed when alive. Wood release is literally the most broken release in the hands of someone with massive amounts of chakra, and given how insanely versatile it is, edo Madara had no reason to use anything else (and it isn't as if he was forced to his limits when in edo form).
You're completely ignoring the fact that the most time we spend in the mind of out of any character is Naruto. We barely know how Madara fought, let alone the details of what he thought when fighting. He's way more experienced in combat than Naruto, and just because we have evidence on one side that Naruto thinks when fighting on the virtue of being the protagonist doesn't mean no one else does. Yes, Naruto is smart, but that kind of analytical style was only seen heavily in Naruto and not Shippuden (note that the plans you've linked above only have one combat oriented big brain play actually in Shippuden, the pain fight specifically. Firstly the pain fight scans linked above aren't even that smart, they're almost all just standard "fooled ya" shadow clone stuff that is typical of clone users, almost everyone who uses clones has done a switcheroo, two of which were from Madara himself. The actual smart thing he did in that fight was to take care of Animal Path Pain in Gamabunta's stomach to bypass vision sharing and give him enough time to take care of her). The reason I'm bringing this up is not to trash Shippuden, it's to point out that the "thinking" and "planning" aspect of the shinobi battles was not something Shippuden focused on, and considering we've only seen one person fight Madara on equal terms (Hashirama) and that too in flashbacks or offscreen only (all other times even in edo or after reincarnation were complete stomps either ways so not much planning you can do there). He isn't the protagonist or even then the key being used here isn't even something we have any info on. From what we know Madara is definitely very intelligent and saying Naruto has the battle smarts advantage simply because he has more visible feats on the account of being the protagonist is akin to declaring that Tobirama doesn't have nipples simply because we've never seen them and we've seen Naruto's (and other characters) nips before, so Tobirama definitely has no nipples (please take this as an example of a demonstration of bias via protagonist focus and nothing else).
We clearly know that Madara is extremely intelligent, and that intelligence outside battle translates to inside it as well (see shikamaru), and furthermore he's way more versatile as well. Why would Naruto be smarter than one of the smartest characters in the series? If we're taking feats that only one position from a manga like Naruto is capable of showing consistently (the protagonist) then we should also take his debate skills into consideration to convince the other person to secede, because that's also something he has more than other people. There are of course exceptions, but they're far fewer and less impressive than Naruto. But debate skills, like the focus on Naruto's own battles rather than someone who appeared in two flashbacks in the key we're taking, are just advantages he has due to protagonist focus and nothing else. Yes, Naruto is smart, but there's little reason to assume that outside of protagonist focus he'd be more tactically gifted than someone who was a war commander, battled his entire life, considered to be the peak of Uchiha (a clan famous for being intelligent in and out of battle) and someone who plotted and schemed throughout the entire series being only superseded by Black Zetsu.
Sorry for late reply, I forgot about this
But Jugo's version of SM is inferior as it's untrained and imperfect.
Sage Mode amps stats evenly. If it makes a jutsu more than 10x stronger, it makes all his jutsu 10x stronger and his attacks more than 10x stronger.
Juubito~>BSM Naruto~>Tobirama>EMS Madara>Edo Madara~KCM2 Naruto. It's not a massive difference, but it's enough to be a factor.
Hebi Sasuke also no diffed 1000 sound ninja. Stomping an army of fodder isn't really as impressive a feat as a lot of things these two have done. And yeah he's better at genjutsu but genjutsu will be ineffective on Naruto cause he's a Perfect Jinchuriki. Plus Naruto may be able to summong Fukasaku and Shima and use Frog Song, which is arguably better than Madara's genjutsu showings.
No, Madara's feats matter more than his ability on paper. It's an in character battle after all.
Not sure about vastly better but whatever.
Madara only ever used absorption, and rarely. He used deep forest emergence because he wanted to test out his new powers. Using wood clones as subterfuge is cool, but still not at the level of some of Naruto's tactics. Storm release isn't even a tactic. Also, the reason he may have not used many of his Alive abilities is exactly because his Alive arsenal besides his Sharingan abilities and fire style aren't that impressive.
Even Naruto's purely Shippuden tactical feats outshine Madara's though. That's not to say Madara is dumb, but he's never really had to rely on thinking in battle much, because his raw power is enough to stomp just about anyone, and all his battles with Hashirama were mech battles that don't rely much on intelligence. The Tobirama example doesn't work because we KNOW all humans have nipples, but the same assumption can't be made for battle smarts.
Not necessarily. Sakura was incredibly book smart and was one of the only people to pass the Chunin Exams written test without cheating, and has plenty more showings like that, but in battle she usually has a simple approach. Also is Madara far more versatile? Is he really? Naruto has shadow clones, SM, KCM, KCM2, BSM, Rasengan, Giant Rasengan, Massive Rasengan, Wind Style Rasengan, Rasenshuriken, Massive Rasenshuriken, Massive Rasengan Mega Barrage, Frog Kata, Frog Slap, sensory abilities both via SM and KCM, Summoning jutsu, Sexy jutsu, Harem jutsu, Reverse Harem jutsu, Mini Rasenshuriken, Bijuudama, Super Mini Bijuudama, Rasenrengan, Nine Tailed Rasengan, the Kurama Avatar, the ability to manifest individual parts of the Avatar, Planetary Rasengan, Spiralling Absorption Sphere, Spiralling Strife Spheres, Uzumaki 2K barrage,
No, actually, Naruto's debating skills are amazing. There's a reason he talk no jutsud so many people that seem so hard set in their ways.
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