Bleed is 5D (DC Comics)

[Robo432343]

i know there is a reason on why the bleed isn't 5D but i just can't find it so i'll post this

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Bleed​

The Bleed, also called Bleedspace and Hyperspace, is a dimension that can only be conventionally accessed by moving up through higher dimensions[41]. It is the dimension that contains all universes, serving as the membrane keeping them apart and the "Bulk" encompassing them. The Bleed itself, despite being a dimensional space to lower-dimensional beings, is composed of Ultramenstruum, the essence of Life according to Monitor Zillo Valla.

• The Bleed is the membrane between universes
• Universes grow within the Bleed like crystals in solution
• Bleed is the Bulk encompassing brane universes

Fifth Dimension​

The Fifth Dimension, as far back as the 90s, was defined as a plane completely surpassing geometric spatial dimensions, as well as surpassing time. Instead it was defined as Imagination, a designation carried forward into current comics by Scott Snyder.

• The Fifth Dimension is a transgeometric plane, meaning it exist completely beyond all geometric dimensions
• The Fifth Dimension completely transcends time
• The Fifth Dimension is Imagination
• The Fifth Dimension transcends space and time, existing as pure Imagination and magic

Due to their existing outside the Third and Fourth Dimensions (Snyder-defined), beings from this level of reality can interact with the lower Dimensions in tangible ways. They can "physically" interact with Time itself, and their attacks upon each other can accidentally damage many places and times[49] in the lower Dimensions.

• Qwsp states he can control reality at any level, moving freely through time and Hypertime
• Vyndktvx latched onto actual times in his assault
• Mxyz juggled Matter and Time
• Imps disturb Time when they fight

It is a very reasonable interpretation that the Bleed itself is in fact, or at least has a direct relationship with, the Fifth Dimension. The House of Heroes, rotating through the Bleed, was stated to rotate through the Fifth Dimension, and Mr. Mxyzptlk refers to Imagination as the blood of the Multiverse. The Fifth Dimension itself is revealed to be made of a substance depicted like blood.

In addition to the above points, the Monitors refer to Bleed as the substance of life itself, draining it out of Creation and draining the life out of stories (this evidence can be found in the Monitor Sphere section further down). Given that Mxyz uses "unimagination" and reduces the story back to sketches, everything seems to line up.

• The House of Heroes rotates through 5D
• Mr. Mxyzptlk says Imagination is the blood of the Multiverse that flows between realms
• The Fifth Dimension and its beings, stated prior to be composed of Imagination, are depicted as being made of a blood-like material
• Ultramenstruum/Bleed is the substance of Life itself
• When Mr. Mxyzptlk removes Imagination, the comic art is reduced back to sketches

Finally, it is important to note that the Bleed clearly exists differently on different levels of reality. To the mortals living within normal universes, it is a higher-dimensional Bulk space. To the Fifth-Dimensional beings and presumably to the Sphere of the Gods (a realm composed of story, which we go over below), it exists as an energy flowing through Creation. And to the Monitors, it exists as a tangible substance that can be handled and consumed like a drink, draining Life out of the story of Creation.

Agree with 5D Bleed: @Elizio33 @Maverick_Zero_X @Executor_N0 @DarkDragonMedeus @Deagonx (Unsure who scales) @Antvasima
Disagree with 5D Bleed:

 

[Elizio33]

Throughout Final Crisis, the Bleed was clearly treated as a 4-D space.

 

[Robo432343]

The Bleed has such a strong relationship with the Fifth dimension i just can't unsee it

 

[Elizio33]

The Bleed has such a strong relationship with the Fifth dimension i just can't unsee it

Well, the two probably have a strong relationship but are not exactly the same. The Fifth Dimension is imagination and touches every part of the map of the multiverse, including the highest levels like the Monitor Sphere, while the Bleed is the 4-D "Bulk" enclosing the 52 universes of the Orrery and the substance of life for them. It's true that both have been described as the blood of the multiverse flowing between realms, but they are different things and are simply implied to be somewhat related.

 

[Robo432343]

bro the blood thing being in the 5th dimension cant be a coincidence
everything just seems to line up for some reason

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Throughout Final Crisis, the Bleed was clearly treated as a 4-D space.

Are there anymore references to this? Besides the statement from Superman Beyond regarding 4-D vision, I haven't seen any specific references about the Bleed being 4-D across Final Crisis.

 

[Elizio33]

Are there anymore references to this? Besides the statement from Superman Beyond regarding 4-D vision, I haven't seen any specific references about the Bleed being 4-D across Final Crisis.

Zillo Valla had to enhance Superman's 4-D vision so he could truly understand what he experience in Bleed, which is a good indicator that the bleed is 4-D.

bro the blood thing being in the 5th dimension cant be a coincidence
everything just seems to line up for some reason

I have always considered the Fifth Dimension to be the highest level or true level of Bleed, but this is just in theory.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Zillo Valla had to enhance Superman's 4-D vision so he could truly understand what he experience in Bleed, which is a good indicator that the bleed is 4-D.

Valla didn't actually enhance his vision, it was just something that naturally occured when Superman looked at the Bleed.

But this doesn't necessarily cap the Bleed to 4-D because it's not like Superman is viewing the whole Bleed anyway.

And it does seem to me that the Bleed encompasses "imagination" which is the 5th dimension because the House of Heroes rotates inside it, it rotates within the structure of the Orrey of Worlds, within the gaps between the universes of the Orrey of Worlds which is referred to as within the Fifth Dimension.

 

[Robo432343]

if there was a statement that said, "Bleed is 4D" then obv i wouldn't have made this thread
Superman having to get 4D vision doesn't cap the Bleed at 4D
wouldn't the fact that Superman having to get 4D vision just by experiencing a part of the bleed be a supporting statement anyway??

 

[Elizio33]

if there was a statement that said, "Bleed is 4D" then obv i wouldn't have made this thread
Superman having to get 4D vision doesn't cap the Bleed at 4D
wouldn't the fact that Superman having to get 4D vision just by experiencing a part of the bleed be a supporting statement anyway??

The Bleed isn't a place with multiple layers or levels of reality, it's the higher-dimensional "bulk" enclosing the 3-D universes. If Superman's vision adjusted to 4-D to truly understand the Bleed, then the Bleed is 4-D. Otherwise why was his vision not adjusted to 5-D?

 

[Robo432343]

The Bleed isn't a place with multiple layers, it's the higher-dimensional "bulk" enclosing the 3-D universes.

You mean the higher dimensional bulk enclosing the 4-D universes??

If Superman's vision adjusted to 4-D to truly understand the Bleed, then the Bleed is 4-D. Otherwise why was his vision not adjusted to 5-D?

Superman wasn't even viewing the entirety of the bleed, 4D vision naturally happens when someone experiences the bleed
this is the only statement that supports bleed being 4D and it doesn't do a good job at it anyway

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

If we take the 4-D vision in Superman Beyond to cap the Bleed to 4-D then we should acknowledge this contradicts Multiversity which says the House of Heroes is rotating through the fifth dimension in the Orrey of Worlds with it overall being within Bleedspace, or Bleed.

Supporting evidence for this is the Bleed encompassing universes, universes in DC are spacetimes which is 4th dimensional, not 3rd dimensional.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Universes are the conventional space-time and to go into the Bleed is to exit this space-time according to The Green Lantern #12 which was written by Morrison in 2019

More recently, infinite universes are said to be within the Bleed. Batman 2023.

 

[Robo432343]

the dc cosmology blog says that the house of heroes rotates through the 5th dimension around a fixed point in the orrery when it is actually the bleed

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

the dc cosmology blog says that the house of heroes rotates through the 5th dimension around a fixed point in the orrery when it is actually the bleed

Both the Bleed and 5th dimension are said to be the lifeblood of the Multiverse as well, seems a no brainer to me.

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

Isn't the bleed basically the 5th dimension?

 

[Robo432343]

Isn't the bleed basically the 5th dimension?

Yeah that’s what I’m tryna say

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I agree with the OP. There's no direct evidence for Bleed just being 4D, the DC Cosmology revision literally needs work.

 

[Robo432343]

I can’t believe 5D bleed was rejected in another thread. Were the arguments completely different?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I can’t believe 5D bleed was rejected in another thread. Were the arguments completely different?

The main premise was that the 5th dimension was not equal to the Bleed. The universes that the space emcompasses were 3-D thus making the Bleed 4-D and contained only to the Orrery. Alonik made a great point that I should have agreed on long ago.

 

[Elizio33]

I'm currently discussing about this topic on a DC Cosmology thread with those who initially helped me with DC Cosmology page. The arguments used here are good and to be very honest, these were my arguments before, when I and many others were still working on the DC Cosmology page.

 

[Robo432343]

I'm currently discussing about this topic on a DC Cosmology thread with those who initially helped me with DC Cosmology page. The arguments used here are good and to be very honest, these were my arguments before, when I and many others were still working on the DC Cosmology page.

the arguments here are good because it was created by an admin

Could you move this thread to content revision? Thanks

 

[Elizio33]

the arguments here are good because it was created by an admin

Could you move this thread to content revision? Thanks

Exactly, bow down to the admins and never question our authority again.

I'll do better than that, I'll do a crt to add Joshua Williamson's works to our DC Cosmology page where I'll revise some elements, including the Bleed, and realms and another to add a separate cosmology for Grant Morrison based on his other material like Doom Patrol, Animal Man and JLA.

 

[Elizio33]

Anyway, i have moved this thread to crt. If any of you would like to help me with the revision I'm planning to do, it's more than welcome.

 

[Asterotheology]

I agree with the thread. If recent info states that the Bleed is 5D then why would we ignore it and focus only on Final Crisis info?

 

[Deagonx]

Throughout Final Crisis, the Bleed was clearly treated as a 4-D space.

Basically this.

If recent info states that the Bleed is 5D then why would we ignore it and focus only on Final Crisis info?

What recent info are you referring to?

 

[Asterotheology]

Basically this.


What recent info are you referring to?

Multiversity, which came out years after Final Crisis. It's "recent" info.

 

[Elizio33]

Basically this.


What recent info are you referring to?

The info that the House of Heroes rotates through the Fifth Dimension.

 

[Elizio33]

Basically this.

So you think that the Bleed should stay 4-D? Can you elaborate more?

 

[Deagonx]

The info that the House of Heroes rotates through the Fifth Dimension.

So you think that the Bleed should stay 4-D? Can you elaborate more?

I think the Bleed is spatially 4D, I believe it's connection to the Fifth Dimension (imagination) is likely due to the fact that Bleed is said to be the essence of story, but I dont think it's an additional layer of infinity above where we have it now, personally. It's the space in between universes so I'd consider it at best equal to the Sphere.

 

[Elizio33]

I think the Bleed is spatially 4D, I believe it's connection to the Fifth Dimension (imagination) is likely due to the fact that Bleed is said to be the essence of story, but I dont think it's an additional layer of infinity above where we have it now, personally. It's the space in between universes so I'd consider it at best equal to the Sphere.

The two arguments are good. The universes of the Orrery have spacetime which should logically make them 4-D and the Bleed is higher-dimensional to them. What should we do in this case?

 

[Executor_N0]

Being spatially at least 4D makes sense.

It's the bulk between universes, if they have three spatial dimensions it would be 4D at minimum.

But, there's of course still Time. In my opinion, it makes sense to call the bleed 4D when talking about space, but 5D when including the temporal dimension.

 

[Zeinx1]

I disagree with 5d

 

[DivineAura44]

I agree with Executor's position on this matter.

 

[Elizio33]

Being spatially at least 4D makes sense.

It's the bulk between universes, if they have three spatial dimensions it would be 4D at minimum.

But, there's of course still Time. In my opinion, it makes sense to call the bleed 4D when talking about space, but 5D when including the temporal dimension.

Makes sense

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Being spatially at least 4D makes sense.

It's the bulk between universes, if they have three spatial dimensions it would be 4D at minimum.

But, there's of course still Time. In my opinion, it makes sense to call the bleed 4D when talking about space, but 5D when including the temporal dimension.

It's important to note that it isn't just about how the Bleed relates to the universes within it (which I think would still be considered 5-D by our current standards of space-time being 4-D automatically), but how the Bleed and the "5th Dimension" or "Imagination" is equated in Multiversity, and across comics with where the House of Heroes resides, the blood of the Multiverse.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

agree with 5D bleed

 

[Bastolan27]

Agree FRA

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Being spatially at least 4D makes sense.

It's the bulk between universes, if they have three spatial dimensions it would be 4D at minimum.

But, there's of course still Time. In my opinion, it makes sense to call the bleed 4D when talking about space, but 5D when including the temporal dimension.

This makes sense.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Having a 4th spatial dimension as well as time would make it 5-D, but unlike having a 2nd temporal dimension this wouldn't by default mean it's quantitatively superior iirc or plane of higher infinity thus not foolproof of Tier 1 size or anything like that.