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Bleach high godly and concept hax

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Theglassman12 said:
@KingogKings777 does the concept of zanpakutos have control over reality itself or does it govern a specific object? Because ichibei gives names to the individual swords, the names aren't something that governs reality.
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Okay do you want to explain by what you mean have control over reality itself cause type 2 is govern all reality within their area of influence.
 
Planck69 said:
This back and forth feels a bit meaningless. Theglassman12 already agreed with it remaining Type 2 but changing the justification. Zanpaktous having their names manipulated would only work as proof is they have an explicit statement of existing across reality.

The High-Godly regeneration discourse is especially useless. "Imagination to reality" isn't manipulating information. If you want that to stay, post a scan that proves what he's doing is controlling information of reality, Reishi is information etc. If not then it would go.
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Yeah no, it shouldn't get changed at all and i already gave plenty of proof and examples literally by using the CM explanation page itself.
It's CM2, even if you don't consider the fact that he controls the concept black by itself, all the other things he created are CM2 by itself.

3. Lesser Fundamental Concepts: Concepts that don't meet the same standards as Type 1 or Type 2, such as personal concepts that continue to govern the object in question, merely on a more specific scale, or concepts whose nature is not elaborated upon. Case-by-case specifications and explanations are necessary for such concepts and examples, and they are likely not going to meet the same standards for abilities such as High-Godly regeneration that other concepts may. Conceptual manipulation of this type can be resisted by those who resist sufficiently similar abilities, even if the exact mechanics may differ.

Like i said 10 times before

such as personal concepts that continue to govern the object in question, merely on a more specific scale

govern the object in question, merely on a specific scale this means that by changing the concept of that object, the concept itself remains unchanged.
This would be the same as changing the concept of a single soul, which is CM3, and altering all souls which is CM2.
Or in this case, altering the concept of a singular zanpakuto (which is CM3) and altering all of them is CM2.
Ichibei does the later and created the very concept of zanpakuto themselves.

2. Dependent Concepts: Such concepts are abstract and govern all reality within their area of influence. These concepts shape everything, and changing them would either require the alteration of every object of the concept or, if manipulated directly, change all objects of the concept alongside the concept itself. These concepts, however, exist simultaneously with and are bound by the object of the concept. In this way, an abstract dependent concept can be destroyed by destroying all objects of the concept, restored by re-making an object of a previously existent concept, or changed by changing all objects of the concept across reality. This, however, does not qualify for this form of conceptual manipulation, and is rather treated as a by-product of another action akin to a "domino effect". This type of conceptual manipulation can only be obtained if the abstract concept itself is changed directly, and not by indirect methods. For example, destroying humanity and thus "ending the concept of humanity" would not qualify, while directly "ending the concept of humanity" and thus destroying humanity would qualify.

Such concepts are abstract and govern all reality within their area of influence

These concepts shape everything, and changing them would either require the alteration of every object of the concept or, if manipulated directly, change all objects of the concept alongside the concept itself. These concepts, however, exist simultaneously with and are bound by the object of the concept

Ichibei created the very concept of zanpakuto itself. he didn't give individual names or only affects a single zanpakuto like what people are proposing / saying whatever. This has already been repeated 20 times given examples of the CM page itself.
Ichibei creating/ naming an individual zanpakuto would count as CM3, where as creating the very concept of zanpakuto themselves is CM2.
These CONCEPTS GOVERN ALL REALITY WITHIN THEIR AREA OF INFLUENCE
Literally read the CM page, they even give examples of what qualifies and what doesn't..

It's black on white CM2, nothing is getting changed about it.
 
I actually forgot the fact that reishi itself is the building block of existence in bleach, which contains all fundamental information.
 
Damage3245 said:
That's like saying all matter IRL contains all fundamental information so anyone who has regeneration should be High-Godly.
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Except for that we don't even know what matter is made up of IRL, and this is fiction so your point in itself is moot.

It would only apply to beings that can come back from complete erasure of their existence either way, such as gerard, aizen, shaz.
You don't get high-godly just from regenerating, you need to regen from complete erasure.
 
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Planck69 said:
Riveting. Can you post the scans of it containing all information?
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I assume this is what deceived wanted to make a post about and was going to prove in itself.
I don't really have all the scans required to prove it, and apparently deceived does but i've read it before, and the reasoning behind it
So i'll wait for Deceived to post first.
 
I don't like debating about High-Tier abilities anymore, it melts my brain :Crydo:

high-godly regen: So where exactly in this scan does it imply informational regeneration? Because turning from an imaginary product to something real is way too vague in of itself and doesn’t remotely explain that literal information that’s the building block of existence is being reformed from the ground up. If there’s no other scan to justify this then this should be downgraded to mid-godly as this is insufficient for high-godly. This would also nuke the information type 2 manipulation from the pages assuming they’re all stemmed from this same scan here.
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The implications of informational regeneration was Shaz turning his previous reality, as in the nature of his being, from an illusion into a physical reality. The distinction between illusion and physical under this context would be a fundamental one as Shaz’s previous illusory body, which contained fundamental information about Shaz, such as his soul, mind, abilities etc. Was considered to be a different “reality” when compared to his “physical” self, the one which was constructed of Reishi. This shows a level of regeneration on a fundamental scale, and since Shaz’s directly stated capable of regenerating his entire body if destroyed, it would logically follow that he could regenerate from fundamental-level destruction of his entire body as well.

But even if you disagree with this line of logic and believe it to be wrong, or still vague. Shaz would still have High-Godly as Reishi particles contain fundamental information.

Main Evidence:
Supporting Evidence:
There’s definitely more scans I'm missing but this should be enough to hopefully show that Reishi within Bleach contains, constructs and holds fundamental information within itself, and thus regenerating from the entire destruction of your Reishi form would be classified as High-Godly.

Conceptual Manipulation (Type 2): so where exactly in the scans for Ichibei does it imply that him rewriting/erasing names can extend to concepts that govern all of reality? Because being able to grant names for Zanpakutos or removing/erasing Yhwach’s name is only a type 3 concept he’s affecting since the names are tied to a specific object, not an overarching concept that governs existence.
Click to expand...

I’ve been told that you agree with Ichibe having Type 2 CM, just for a separate reason, so i’m not going to address this, i’m fine with changing the reasoning.
 
Hellscream said:
Except for that we don't even know what matter is made up of IRL
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You could have checked a physics or chemistry textbook on matter or just use the internet or a search engine literally, instead of making such wrong claims.
Btw matter consists of atoms, and atoms consists of neutrons, protons and electrons, the number which each contain or how they are arranged or charged determines the nature of a substance.
So yes we know what matters are made up of.

Decided to check this thread, skipped to the last page and saw this, anyway I am out.
I came here a mortal, and left a hero
 
PrinceofPein said:
You could have just checked a physics or chemistry textbook on matter or just use the internet or a search engine literally, instead of making such ignorant claims.
Btw matter consists of atoms, and atoms consists of neutrons, protons and electrons, the number which each contain or how they are arranged or charged determines the nature of a substance.
So yes we know what matters are made up of.

Decided to check this thread, skipped to the last page and saw this, anyway I am out.
I came here a mortal, and left a hero
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Tf are you saying mate, the smallest known matter we know of is quarks, which is what protons and electrons are made of, we don't even know if there's anything smaller than quarks.

Quarks are the smallest known matter in the universe that we know of, we don't even know if there's anything smaller, so no we don't
 
Hellscream said:
Tf are you saying mate, the smallest known matter we know of is quarks, which is what protons and electrons are made of, we don't even know if there's anything smaller than quarks.
Click to expand...
If you know what quarks are, then why would you say we do not know what matter is made up of?
Matter is made up of atoms, which is made of protons, neutrons and electrons, which is in turn made up of quarks considered to be the unit of matter.
So yes we do know what matter is made up of.

If you have any more contention take it to my wall so we do not derail
 
I disagree with the OP. Hellscream's and Deceived's arguments make more sense. Also, agreeing with what was said above, it would be interesting to have a topic about conceptual manipulation and reishi, since both are important to the work.
 
Deceived3596 said:
I don't like debating about High-Tier abilities anymore, it melts my brain :Crydo:
Click to expand...
Weak mortal 🗿
Deceived3596 said:
The implications of informational regeneration was Shaz turning his previous reality, as in the nature of his being, from an illusion into a physical reality. The distinction between illusion and physical under this context would be a fundamental one as Shaz’s previous illusory body, which contained fundamental information about Shaz, such as his soul, mind, abilities etc. Was considered to be a different “reality” when compared to his “physical” self, the one which was constructed of Reishi.
Click to expand...
That same scan also implies that he needs to absorb Reishi to facilitate that so I'm not entirely sure of how fundamental the destruction is. Regardless, merely destroying something that carries information doesn't imply destroying the information itself, anymore than deleting a being whose powers come from his body from existence means that the very concept/information/plot etc. was destroyed as well.
Deceived3596 said:
This shows a level of regeneration on a fundamental scale, and since Shaz’s directly stated capable of regenerating his entire body if destroyed, it would logically follow that he could regenerate from fundamental-level destruction of his entire body as well.
Click to expand...
I mean, yes this makes sense but so far his information hasn't been directly mentioned or any component that does carry such things.
Deceived3596 said:
But even if you disagree with this line of logic and believe it to be wrong, or still vague. Shaz would still have High-Godly as Reishi particles contain fundamental information.

Main Evidence:
Click to expand...
This would grant Physics Manipulation but not much else on its own. A setting's fundamental energy system granting esoteric powers doesn't mean that the energy or power is in itself at that level of existence.
Deceived3596 said:
Click to expand...
My above point aside, the first part specifically mentions him merging a sort of virtual world with reality to do this so I'm not sure how this exactly proves Reishi is fundamentally information to begin with. the second part just mentions him creating a dimension where he can do so.
Deceived3596 said:
Click to expand...
A large part of this information isn't fundamental to reality, though the part of containing existences is pretty promising.
Deceived3596 said:
Click to expand...
Same as above. And soul fragments holding knowledge seems more to the fact that the mind and such are aspects of it than anything but my context is zero on that so I won't comment.
Deceived3596 said:
Click to expand...
These are memories, which again aren't fundamental information that builds up reality.
Deceived3596 said:
  • Reishi in general constitute most, if not all fundamental aspects within Bleach itself, such as the soul, mind, space, laws etc.
Click to expand...
This is the most solid part so far but there's a bit of difference in an energy/power making up everything and that power being the very information that decides how everything is.

To me at least, this doesn't seem sufficient to have Reishi act as the sort of fundamental information that would underpin reality. Other staff can offer opinions on this.
 
I'll address the above later, just got done eating.

Also you seemingly didn't address the supporting evidence, what's your opinion on those?
 
Deceived3596 said:
Supporting Evidence:
Click to expand...
Oh, this. Well, it didn't seem necessary to me but if I have to say anything;

  • The first part is power absorption and mimicry. That she gains intrinsic knowledge just seems to be a necessary byproduct of her power.
  • The information absorbed isn't specified to be fundamental to reality. It just seems that they absorb knowledge/information about people from them.

I'd rather not turn this into a huge back-and-forth so you can just lay out your response and let staff view both of our posts.
 
That same scan also implies that he needs to absorb Reishi to facilitate that so I'm not entirely sure of how fundamental the destruction is. Regardless, merely destroying something that carries information doesn't imply destroying the information itself, anymore than deleting a being whose powers come from his body from existence means that the very concept/information/plot etc. was destroyed as well.
Click to expand...

How exactly would that disprove anything I’m asserting? If I’m arguing that both are fundamental sources, then regenerating from another fundamental source wouldn’t be a counter to surviving fundamental-levels of damage. Especially when you actively change your existence from illusion to real using said source. I’d argue his attacks would have that level of interaction since he’s able to manipulate Reishi to that level, and that level of manipulation is what allows him to construct attacks.

I mean, yes this makes sense but so far his information hasn't been directly mentioned or any component that does carry such things.
Click to expand...

I’d argue it’s being implicitly stated since the actor whose capable of destroying said body can interact with fundamental information, such as his own existence.

This would grant Physics Manipulation but not much else on its own. A setting's fundamental energy system granting esoteric powers doesn't mean that the energy or power is in itself at that level of existence.
Click to expand...

Valid interpretation, i just disagree with it because of the context behind Fullbringers and their abilities, see, Fullbringers main ability is just the manipulation of Souls/Reishi within matter, that’s it. Through special connections with objects which they’ve ingrained themselves in spiritually and mentally with, Fullbringers can activate these objects to gain special, esoteric abilities which they’re only able to use. But within this instance just the basic Fullbringer ability to manipulate Reishi is allowing them to manipulate the laws of physics itself. If this was done through their special abilities granted by those specific objects I’d agree with you more, but since it isn’t, and rather it’s done through Fullbringers most fundamental ability, it would imply more to me that the laws of physics are constructed of Reishi, and can be actively manipulated by experienced Fullbringers. Which wouldn't be all that surprising if i'm being honest since even other fundamental structures, such as space, are entirely constructed of Reishi as well.

My above point aside, the first part specifically mentions him merging a sort of virtual world with reality to do this so I'm not sure how this exactly proves Reishi is fundamentally information to begin with. the second part just mentions him creating a dimension where he can do so.
Click to expand...

It proves that Reishi is considered as information to spiritual entities such as Hisagi, which is important as it proves that Reishi can, and does contain information within it. The other evidence within the list proves that said information can exist on a fundamental level.

A large part of this information isn't fundamental to reality, though the part of containing existences is pretty promising.
Click to expand...

Alright.

If the existence stuff is promising, would evidence of Soul King fragments allowing the existence of a fusion between two contradictory existences add more credence to Reishi containing one’s information within it/existing on a informational level?, because if so, i’ll definitely find those scans and send them in this thread.

Same as above. And soul fragments holding knowledge seems more to the fact that the mind and such are aspects of it than anything but my context is zero on that so I won't comment.
Click to expand...

Possibly, I don't really have contentions with that interpretation.

These are memories, which again aren't fundamental information that builds up reality.
Click to expand...

Sure.

This is the most solid part so far but there's a bit of difference in an energy/power making up everything and that power being the very information that decides how everything is.
Click to expand...

If Reishi within the series is considered to contain, construct or hold one’s information within it, such as shown with Hisagi. Why would this suddenly change when examined on a more fundamental level?, if we don’t have enough evidence to prove either, or true. We would default to the general rule since that has provable claims, and that rule explains Reishi contains one’s information within it. This would most likely be the exact same, just on a more fundamental level.

If i find anymore information pertinent to this thread, i'll make sure to compile it and send it over.

Edit: If enough people disagree with a concrete rating, i'm fine with downgrading it to a possibly or likely rating as a compromise.
 
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Deceived3596 said:
I doubt it was, but we're derailing, so i'll stop commenting about this issue after this post.
Click to expand...
well to make it simple, ill just pull the vsbw wiki deifnition

In most works of fiction, the fourth wall is intact, that is, the characters do not acknowledge the existence of an audience or that they themselves are part of a fictional work.
Click to expand...
ichibeis case does neither, and the anime debunks the speech bubble argument
 
Phsccarvalho said:
Wasn't Shaz created by The Visionary? That turns thoughts into reality, something real? How would he be illusory?

I'm really asking.
Click to expand...
Gremmy stating he turns his thoughts into reality isn't him referencing their ontological existence, he's just saying he gives his thoughts physicality, as in they become tangible objects which can be interacted with. Gremmy in actuality states he needs to consciously give his creations ontological "realness" since by default they're just imaginary byproducts of his thoughts.
 
Deceived3596 said:
Gremmy stating he turns his thoughts into reality isn't him referencing their ontological existence, he's just saying he gives his thoughts physicality, as in they become tangible objects which can be interacted with. Gremmy in actuality stats he needs to consciously give his creations ontological "realness" since by default they're just imaginary byproducts of his thoughts.
Click to expand...
I didn't understand very well, but I don't understand anything about Information Manipulation, so I won't enter into the discussion.
 
Deceived3596 said:
Gremmy stating he turns his thoughts into reality isn't him referencing their ontological existence, he's just saying he gives his thoughts physicality, as in they become tangible objects which can be interacted with. Gremmy in actuality states he needs to consciously give his creations ontological "realness" since by default they're just imaginary byproducts of his thoughts.
Click to expand...
shaz had innate reiatsu even before breaking out of gremmys control, which must mean he has a soul of some sort
 
I agree with information type 2 evidence based only on "Visioner" in Bleach.
I am still neutral about Shaz Domino's High Godly Regeneration.(It's not very clear.)
I disagree with any of the extra evidence for Information type 2.
Manipulating the knowledge of a physical /metaphysical object is just
Information is Type 1.
There is insufficient evidence that the basis of a object's existence is İnformation.

For Conceptual Manipulation Type 2, all physical/metaphysical objects named by the zanpakutu of Ichibei have a name in all reality. For example, when Ichibei creates the "Bankai" concept, all the advanced zanpakuto in Soul Society are called "Bankai".
So when Ichibei names a object, that object in all reality has that name.
We already know that Ichibei names everything in Soul Society.
So Ichibei's conceptual manipulation should not be limited to the concept of darkness.
 
What?..
Did you read what information type 1 is?
The entire post has nothing to do with information type 1 at all

It literally says that reishi if the fundamental building block of existence itself in bleach, and reishi itself contains all information of all things, including the laws of the verse, space, souls literally everything.

This is the definition of Information manip type 2.
 
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Deceived3596 said:
I don't like debating about High-Tier abilities anymore, it melts my brain :Crydo:



The implications of informational regeneration was Shaz turning his previous reality, as in the nature of his being, from an illusion into a physical reality. The distinction between illusion and physical under this context would be a fundamental one as Shaz’s previous illusory body, which contained fundamental information about Shaz, such as his soul, mind, abilities etc. Was considered to be a different “reality” when compared to his “physical” self, the one which was constructed of Reishi. This shows a level of regeneration on a fundamental scale, and since Shaz’s directly stated capable of regenerating his entire body if destroyed, it would logically follow that he could regenerate from fundamental-level destruction of his entire body as well.

But even if you disagree with this line of logic and believe it to be wrong, or still vague. Shaz would still have High-Godly as Reishi particles contain fundamental information.

Main Evidence:
Supporting Evidence:
There’s definitely more scans I'm missing but this should be enough to hopefully show that Reishi within Bleach contains, constructs and holds fundamental information within itself, and thus regenerating from the entire destruction of your Reishi form would be classified as High-Godly.



I’ve been told that you agree with Ichibe having Type 2 CM, just for a separate reason, so i’m not going to address this, i’m fine with changing the reasoning.
Click to expand...
Zanpakutou are reishi constructs and Ichigo was able to read Kyoka Suigetsu's memories and Aizen's through physical contact with the sword. Another evidence reishi contains information.
 
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