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Bleach high godly and concept hax

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So Ichibei's concept hax should be reworded to control the black across the world, not for giving zanpakutos names because Zanpakutos don't govern reality, their names only cover the individual swords.

Anyways gonna update the vote count.
 
Theglassman12 said:
So Ichibei's concept hax should be reworded to control the black across the world, not for giving zanpakutos names because Zanpakutos don't govern reality, their names only cover the individual swords.

Anyways gonna update the vote count.
Click to expand...
3. Lesser Fundamental Concepts: Concepts that don't meet the same standards as Type 1 or Type 2, such as personal concepts that continue to govern the object in question, merely on a more specific scale, or concepts whose nature is not elaborated upon. Case-by-case specifications and explanations are necessary for such concepts and examples, and they are likely not going to meet the same standards for abilities such as High-Godly regeneration that other concepts may. Conceptual manipulation of this type can be resisted by those who resist sufficiently similar abilities, even if the exact mechanics may differ.

2. Dependent Concepts: Such concepts are abstract and govern all reality within their area of influence. These concepts shape everything, and changing them would either require the alteration of every object of the concept or, if manipulated directly, change all objects of the concept alongside the concept itself. These concepts, however, exist simultaneously with and are bound by the object of the concept. In this way, an abstract dependent concept can be destroyed by destroying all objects of the concept, restored by re-making an object of a previously existent concept, or changed by changing all objects of the concept across reality. This, however, does not qualify for this form of conceptual manipulation, and is rather treated as a by-product of another action akin to a "domino effect". This type of conceptual manipulation can only be obtained if the abstract concept itself is changed directly, and not by indirect methods. For example, destroying humanity and thus "ending the concept of humanity" would not qualify, while directly "ending the concept of humanity" and thus destroying humanity would qualify.

So yeah, zanpakuto, shikai, bankai themselves are already CM type 2, not to mention that he named everything in soul society.
 
And to me it seems like the OP thinks that information manipulation, is only specified to data manipulation itself.
Information manipulation is a broad term, and being an imaginary object is the foundation and building block of his very existence.
It's literally the definition of information manipulation.

  1. Fundamental: These characters can manipulate information, which serves as fundamental building block of reality. This can allow characters to rewrite the world to their whims, often by programming it much like they would a virtual reality. These manipulation can come on many levels. For some it might just be the mechanism behind mundane magical abilities, while others can rewrite information to change reality, causality or the laws of nature.
 
If it helps anyone i got these statements from DontTalk and Ultima from past threads after the most recent CM revisions.

@DontTalkDT's wording

"However, concepts should be... general... to use a vague term. Concepts, in our usage of them, are to laws of nature, what laws of nature are to matter. They are the cause of the laws, in a certain sense, and dictate how they work. Or perhaps it would be better to say they are the cause of the properties of the objects which dictate, based on the laws, how things work."DontTalk (DT)


"Changing the property of a flame to make it cold mean you change the property "being hot" into the property "being cold". Meanwhile, concept manip would take the property "being hot" and let the flame remain hot. Instead, it would make it so that things that are hot behave like being cold.
If inverting gravity is gravity manipulation, but changing the nature of gravity is law manipultion, then inverting a property should be property manipulation, but changing the nature of the property itself would be concept manipulation. That might be a good way to put it."

Also DontTalk (TD)


"I mean, we could change Type 3 to that if everyone prefers, but I see quite a big difference between changing the property of something and changing the nature of the property (i.e. concept) itself. One thing affects the object, the other thing affects the property. The target is different. As said, like the difference between manipulating gravity and changing the nature of gravity itself.
As long as it's separated it probably isn't vastly important what it is listed as, but separated it should be." - DT

vsbattles.com

Conceptual Manipulation Clarifications/Revisions

Hello All, The topic of this discussion is in regards to how we treat conceptual manipulation and is sort of stemming from the current JjK hax revisions thread, and this incomplete thread discussing some of the concepts I am touching upon today. Essentially, we don't really have an avenue...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
Click to expand...

Those aren't two separate definitions. It's two parts of the same definition. A Type 1 Concept has to be independent of reality and be a source of a property to those things that participate in them.

I'm not sure why you assume concepts can't participate in other concepts due to this definition. They don't have to be independent of other concepts, but from the governed reality i.e. the actual world. See this in contrast to Type 2 where alteration of every object governed can cause alteration of the concept.

Also, just in case, will point out that time, space and causality aren't concepts in themselves. They are actual non-abstract things. There are separate concepts of time, space and causality.

vsbattles.com

Concept Manip Type 1's Misaligned Definition

Type 1 Conceptual Manipulation is defined as: 1. Independent Universal Concepts: Such concepts are completely independent from the part of reality they govern. These concepts shape all of reality within their area of influence and at whatever level that area exists in, and everything in it...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
Click to expand...

Thing is, all of this could also apply for type 3. Type 2 is more for concepts that aren't just abstractions of a single thing and more for concepts that grant a property to reality at large (like "circleness" making all circles round.) Ichibe seems to deal more with individual names of people.
Like, changing the name Yhwach probably affected nobody else that was named Yhwach besides his target.

vsbattles.com

What to rank name based manipulations as? (Mostly Clash of Hexennacht, mentions Bleach and Medaka Box as precedence cases)

So, Clash of Hexennacht has a few users with the ability to mess with names. Specifically, they currently list the following: Conceptual Manipulation (Witches are capable of controlling names, names are the definition of things in themselves, and things exist because of names. Witches can...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
Click to expand...

But on the general level, what we have to this point would be:
Manipulating names as abstract things is either concept type 3 or 2. Per default it's 3, but if there is proof that the character can modify a name to not just modify the properties given by the name to one target, but all targets in some governed reality that share that name, it would be 2.

Click to expand...

@Ultima_Reality Words
Conceptual Manipulation as a power just boils down to "Is able to manipulate some abstract essence that defines and governs some aspect of physical reality and can thus enact changes in the latter as a result," and Type 1 just adds the requirement that this essence must also exist independently from the physical world. Both of those are things that Dreams in Chrono very much fit the bill for. So, manipulating them is either Conceptual Manipulation or something that in the end is functionally identical.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/chrono-revisions-lavos-dreams-ap.138205/post-4870487
Click to expand...


Im simply posting this to see if its at all helpful becuase it helped me understand Concepts a fair bit better when there isn't a clear cut statement but something may "Act" like a concept, or similiar in function.
 
Theglassman12 said:
So Ichibei's concept hax should be reworded to control the black across the world, not for giving zanpakutos names because Zanpakutos don't govern reality, their names only cover the individual swords.

Anyways gonna update the vote count.
Click to expand...
Nah, “living or dead” implies the other worlds and realms too are affected by his hax.
 
@AppleLord that doesn’t really refute my point but whatever.

@Hellscream can you give me an exact quote where it’s said that zanpakuto’s literal names govern all of reality and not just the individual swords themselves? Quoting the concept manipulation types doesn’t help your case here.

that’s not what information is, saying something is imaginary doesn’t mean it’s literal data/info on one’s existence.

@Luziifero what part of that scan proves high godly regen?
 
Theglassman12 said:
@AppleLord that doesn’t really refute my point but whatever.

@Hellscream can you give me an exact quote where it’s said that zanpakuto’s literal names govern all of reality and not just the individual swords themselves? Quoting the concept manipulation types doesn’t help your case here.
Click to expand...
It does, as it literally explains what qualified and what doesn't zanpakuto isn't a oncept that's tied to a singular object.
The example in the said page even clarifies this.

destroying humanity and thus "ending the concept of humanity" would not qualify, while directly "ending the concept of humanity" and thus destroying humanity would qualify.

Ichibei ending the concept of zanpakuto would end all zanpakuto in itself, zanpakuto being the swords that all shinigami have that reside over a universal construct.

"destroying humanity and thus "ending the concept of humanity" would not qualify, while directly "ending the concept of humanity" and thus destroying humanity would qualify"

" Concepts that don't meet the same standards as Type 1 or Type 2, such as personal concepts that continue to govern the object in question"
Ichibei isn't affecting one sword.
He's affecting all swords of shinigami, which is the definition of type 2.
It would be type 3 if he was only able to affect a the name of a single zanpakuto.

And then there's also the thing that when Ichibei alters the concept of something, everything in existence gets affected by it.

And yes that is what information is, especially in this case.
It literally makes up his existence.

Anyways, i disagree with both.
 
Last edited:
I am neutral for removal Information Manipulation Type 2 , High Godly Regeneration.
I disagree with the removal of Conceptual Manipulation Type 2. (I will be back tomorrow for explain.)
 
@Hellscream post scans that Ichibei made the concept of Zanpakutos and that it literally governs all of reality. If you can’t prove it then it’s not a type 2 concept, your only shot with type 2 concept is the Blackness of the worlds.

Just saying it’s information doesn’t prove it, prove that they’re controlling literal information.
 
Maybe read CM type 2, and then type 3 then we can continue this discussion.

And yes it is, when their existence is made up of it.
It's literal black on white information manipulation
 
Theglassman12 said:
@Hellscream post scans that Ichibei made the concept of Zanpakutos and that it literally governs all of reality. If you can’t prove it then it’s not a type 2 concept, your only shot with type 2 concept is the Blackness of the worlds.

Just saying it’s information doesn’t prove it, prove that they’re controlling literal information.
Click to expand...
You could have clicked on the imgur link on the profile you know that right? All powers in Bleach dwell within names.
 
Ichibei has concept manipulation because he named everything within Soul Society since it was created. He also has power over the color black itself. He has influence over all things black across all the worlds. Also if Ichibei for example alters the name of an object the object will be forgotten to those who know it as seen when he splattered ink on Yhwach’s sword.

Neutral on the high godly. Sounds like a massive stretch.
 
Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye said:
Ichibei has concept manipulation because he named everything within Soul Society since it was created. He also has power over the color black itself. He has influence over all things black across all the worlds. Also if Ichibei for example alters the name of an object the object will be forgotten to those who know it as seen when splattered ink on Yhwach’s sword.

Neutral on the high godly. Sounds like a massive stretch.
Click to expand...
pretty sure me and @Deceived3596 agreed this is a text manipulation/forth breaking wall, not CM at all.
 
Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye said:
Ichibei has concept manipulation because he named everything within Soul Society since it was created. He also has power over the color black itself. He has influence over all things black across all the worlds. Also if Ichibei for example alters the name of an object the object will be forgotten to those who know it as seen when he splattered ink on Yhwach’s sword.

Neutral on the high godly. Sounds like a massive stretch.
Click to expand...
https://vsbattles.com/threads/gremmy-thoumeaux-and-guenael-lee-upgrades.146529/
https://vsbattles.com/threads/gremmy-and-lee-part-2-electric-boogaloo.146660/
Here are the threads I think that got it.
 
EldemadeDityjon said:
Whatever Ichibei removes or gives name it will affect the timeline/reality itself which was clear cut shown in the Yhwach case. Its clear cut type 2
Click to expand...
What? It does not govern the reality at all. This is type 3 clear-cut. In no instance, it has been shown that without the existence of said name is going to govern the reality.
 
ImmortalDread said:
huh? I remember it was you lad, you were in a streak giving information manipulation in tons of verses back then.
Click to expand...
My reasoning had nothing to do with imagination 🗿. I was talking based on schrifts.
ImmortalDread said:
pretty sure me and @Deceived3596 agreed this is a text manipulation/forth breaking wall, not CM at all.
Click to expand...
ImmortalDread said:
What? It does not govern the reality at all. This is type 3 clear-cut. In no instance, it has been shown that without the existence of said name is going to govern the reality.
Click to expand...
It's not forgotten it's stated as complete existence gets replaced. It sure does Ichibe literally changed Yhwach name into ant. And removed all of his abilities and Existence. And It was affected in timelines also. Kubo even in Q&A clarified that was Ichibe doing.
 
Theglassman12 said:
@Marshadow29 yeah that’s not really sufficient for type 2 concept hax, him talking about darkness just sounds more like him controlling his own ink as anything that touches it has their names altered.
Click to expand...
This one has been agreed as text manipulation/4th breaking wall ability actually, but I assume that @Deceived3596 never had chance to apply it.
 
EldemadeDityjon said:
My reasoning had nothing to do with imagination 🗿. I was talking based on schrifts.
Click to expand...
Does not matter, you would add it anyway 🗿
EldemadeDityjon said:
It's not forgotten it's stated as complete existence gets replaced. It sure does Ichibe literally changed Yhwach name into ant. And removed all of his abilities and Existence. And It was affected in timelines also. Kubo even in Q&A clarified that was Ichibe doing.
Click to expand...
This is not governing the reality at all. Also, IN this instance, it is 4th wall breaking, not concept manipulation.
 
If this was really the accepted justification on the pages I'm gonna propose High-Godly regen and Type 2 informational EE for Tomoe's Pure Illusion Reality.

Agree with the first one, neutral on the second one.
 
ImmortalDread said:
What? It does not govern the reality at all. This is type 3 clear-cut. In no instance, it has been shown that without the existence of said name is going to govern the reality.
Click to expand...
Maybe read the information page concerning conceptual manipulation, and the examples that were given.
That might help.

"For example, destroying humanity and thus "ending the concept of humanity" would not qualify, while directly "ending the concept of humanity" and thus destroying humanity would qualify."

Ending the concept of zanpakuto itself thus ending zanpakuto literally fits the clear cut example listed on CM2.
As to where destroying all zanpakuto and thus "ending the concept of zanpakuto" would not qualify.
Affecting the name of a single zanpakuto would qualify as type 3, as to where altering the concept of zanpakuto in general is type 2.

He created the very concept of zanpakuto and can end it at will.
 
ImmortalDread said:
Does not matter, you would add it anyway 🗿
Click to expand...
cope-harder-cope.gif

When Cien and Roca profile gets dropped sure they got clear cut statement for made up of information itself.
ImmortalDread said:
This is not governing the reality at all. Also, IN this instance, it is 4th wall breaking, not concept manipulation.
Click to expand...
It is clearly mentioned all black in the world (reality) and Ichibe removed the name from Yhwach which clear cut shows he removed Yhwach name from the world itself.

Anyway If you want @Deceived3596 to humble you sure. I am watching a movie see ya later 🚬🗿
 
EldemadeDityjon said:
cope-harder-cope.gif

When Cien and Roca profile gets dropped sure they got clear cut statement for made up of information itself.

It is clearly mentioned all black in the world (reality) and Ichibe removed the name from Yhwach which clear cut shows he removed Yhwach name from the world itself.

Anyway If you want @Deceived3596 to humble you sure. I am watching a movie see ya later 🚬🗿
Click to expand...
ichibes name stealing even affected the past, old man zangetsu couldnt say his real name
 
EldemadeDityjon said:
cope-harder-cope.gif

When Cien and Roca profile gets dropped sure they got clear cut statement for made up of information itself.
Click to expand...
No ❤️
EldemadeDityjon said:
It is clearly mentioned all black in the world (reality) and Ichibe removed the name from Yhwach which clear cut shows he removed Yhwach name from the world itself.
Click to expand...
The power to assign names to Zanpakutos or eliminate Yhwach's name falls under the category of type 3 concepts that he can influence. This is because these names are associated with a particular object rather than a universal concept that governs the existence.

Regardless of its impact on the timeline or reality, it does not govern reality in any way. Governing and affecting are two distinct actions.
 
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