Bleach Downgrade: Meteor Calcs

[Xulrev]

Hey everyone, this isn't going to be my CRT discussing how Bleach should be downgraded, but rather a downgrade of the infamous Gremmy Meteor feat as discussed by calc group member TataHakai's CRT here.

Myself and many others agreed with the OP and it was agreed to review the calc itself, but which one should be applied was never deliberated upon at length nor was a consensus reached.

We have two users who created calcs and both have their own pros and cons, first is AppleLord's meteor calc and Yamamoto Bankai Calc 2 for 1.

Second is IMadeThis's strictly statement-only meteor calc .

Note that use of statements-only was agreed upon at length in Tata's CRT by myself and numerous other knowledgable members for the plethora of evidence that supports them over pixel calcs, so do not attempt to dismiss IMade's out of hand for this alone.

So: whose calc should we use, and more importantly why?

AppleLord votes: Dr. Fix, AppleLord

IMade votes: IMadeThis, USklaverei, M3X, Aernasilver, RegisNex1232, AguilaR101, Dat Dot, The Prince Of Counters, Jvando, The Causality, Qawsedf234, Elizhaa, ShadowWarrior1999, Sixo Bullets, LSirLancelotDuLacl, DarkDragonMedeus, Sigurd Snake in the Eye, The real cal howard, Antvasima

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

Was waiting for someone to make this, I didn't want to do it myself since my calc was one of the possibilities.

Obviously I'm for using my calc for several reasons:

1) It was agreed upon in the discussion thread for us to ditch pixel-scaling and it's numerous inconsistencies that everyone on all sides complained about to move forward with only using statements which is what my calc is solely about; using statements to make the calc.

2) Even in the previous discussion thread everyone involved in the thread except for 2 users agreed upon using my calc giving the agreement on using statements.

3) The opposing calc's number would make Seireitei incredibly small, smaller than the number of Toshiro's Tenso Jurin range, smaller than the walking statement by Yoruichi, smaller than the walking statement by the Dog Children, smaller than the districts statement given in the First Invasion of the Quincy, smaller than the country statement given for the Wandenreich since it equals Seireitei's size and would disregard the geography of Seireitei like mountains and forests that are inside of it given how small it would make it.

 

[Callsign_Castle]

This again?

 

[USklaverei]

I get by the calculation of Imade, it uses a statement given by the author about the size of Seireitei. Since it is something that is consistent with the statements of the novel.

Using pixels the size of Seireitei will always vary in size for each scan, that is, inconsistent.

 

[M3X_2.0]

IMade's calculation seems better, it is very simple and use an accepted method. Wasn't the art itself considered as inconsistent? I remember something like that.

And for the reasons above I agree that IMade's calc seems better with statement-only to calc.

 

[Aernasilver]

This again?

Nah. It's just a continuation of another thread. On topic I agree with IMade's calculation. Apple's one contradicts multiple statements having Seireitei being bigger than what the calc is at.

 

[RegisNex1232]

Imade's calc looks good. Should be used IMO.

 

[AguilaR101]

Imade's calc seems better as statements can be expected to be far more consistent than visuals in a weekly manga.

 

[Dat_Dot]

I also agree with Imade's calculation. The multiple statements is more consistent than the arts.

 

[The_Prince_of_Counters]

I agree with Imade's calc, as far as I'm aware the statements now take priority over the inconsistent art.

 

[Jvando]

If the art is so inconsistent, then utilizing a calculation based on a statement that isn't really contradicted seems to be the best decision.

 

[Dr.Fix]

. . .

1) Clealry it was not agreed upon, at least not by everyone, as otherwise these threads would move a lot faster without back and fourth.

2) Appeal to the majority just means it is popular. Popularity=/= factually correct, though I resign to the likelihood it probably will be passed for that reason. Dragon already acknowledged he liked Apple's better but would go with a majority if a consensus could not be reached.

3) It doesn't actually. The whole point of the calc was that it doesn't use Seretei, but Silbern as to avoid this hot button issue.

Obviously I am in favour of Apples since it has no contradictions. Only by equating Silbern to Seretei do you get those. Statements only approach is also not without contradictions.

Assume Gremmy's statement about its destructive yield is accurate

Disregard Gremmy's statement about being able to destroy Zaraki+ everyone else.

This was literally the same statement btw.

Funny enough since this seems to be a clear cut case of character overestimaing their power/hyperbole. then the two calcs support one another:

Gremmy's actual power is Apple calc, but his slightly exaggerated expectations are parralel to Imade's.

Imade's calc/Gremmy's hyperbole>Zaraki>Apple's calc/actual Gremmy

Ultimately the difference is somewhat minimal between the two. My concern is that the meteor will change yet again in the near future and we will be back to square one. Furthermore, I see scaling problems coming up soon such as whether Zaraki should scale to Yamamaoto rendering this all a waste of time if that happens.

Cheers.

 

[The_Causality]

I agree with the Imade's Method, the statements seem pretty correct, unlike the visual method, i see no reason to not use it

 

[Dangai_Ichigo]

But there's another problem, Gremmy's imagination takes things almost hyper literally, if he really thinks and truly believes that his meteor has enough power to destroy the Silbern then it ultimately would be enhanced to that level according to his belief/imagination

 

[Damage3245]

Huh, I was mostly neutral before but Dr. Fix raises a good point.

The pixelscaling calc ignores the size of the Seireitei Dome altogether and uses the size of the Silbern which was calced through a different method.

 

[AppleLord]

But there's another problem, Gremmy's imagination takes things almost hyper literally, if he really thinks and truly believes that his meteor has enough power to destroy the Silbern then it ultimately would be enhanced to that level according to his belief/imagination

So if Gremmy believe that he can summon a black hole with enough power it will destroy the planet? 5-B Gremmy. ovo

 

[Dangai_Ichigo]

Honestly...while I would say no, i wouldn't doubt it either

 

[BlackeJan]

U guys shouldn't be making votes on which calc to use but which is actaully accurate

 

[Xulrev]

That's why I'm also asking rationale, I explicitly added 'and why' so that argumentation can occur

 

[BlackeJan]

I honestly feel like Gremmy's calc was fine originally. He can "imagine" his attacks so honestly ihe could think it comes from space

I'm not trying to start anything but why is th one that has a better calc more voted then the one thats lower?

 

[Damage3245]

@BlackeJan; the difference between the results isn't that significant.

It's probably the method that people agree with more, not the result.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Silbern is in Wadenreich which is equal in size to Seireitei if not larger. Also that calc makes 0 sense because it doesn't even have a stated size you have to figure it out which at best 10km Seireitei which is even lower then Hitsugaya's range.

Also lol at trying to ignore Seireitei, meaning no Wadenreich size which means god tiers now have no calc to scale to.

I agree with using the statements as originally intended outside of a nonsensical calculation that makes 0 sense context wise.

 

[BlackeJan]

I looked at the IMade calc but im not understanding....Yoruichi said 10 days so where in the world does he get 40 days?

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

I honestly feel like Gremmy's calc was fine originally. He can "imagine" his attacks so honestly ihe could think it comes from space

I'm not trying to start anything but why is th one that has a better calc more voted then the one thats lower?

Like a lot of other bleach calcs they get butchered until it's not even the calc anymore, since they said we can't use statements and scale the meteor relative to the size of statement Seireitei it's now a calc for the energy needed to destroy the Seireitei.

 

[The_Causality]

I looked at the IMade calc but im not understanding....Yoruichi said 10 days so where in the world does he get 40 days?

From what i understood, 10 Day = walk to another portal, the distance beteen two portal is 1/4 of the total circumference of the seireitei, so for an entire travel to 4 portal, it's 10*4 so 40 day for walk the whole circumference of the seireitei

 

[Sekkonds.]

@Dr.Fix kubo art is contradictory..that is something that is accepted here

For example, We have Shakonmaku height and in the same panel we have the silbrrn,which one should we use?

Both will give massive difference in results

You can't be "oh i can use that it's better than that in pixel scalig"

That's why pixel scaling is trash here

 

[Dr.Fix]

@Sek:


>>

Assume Gremmy's statement about its destructive yield is accurate

Disregard Gremmy's statement about being able to destroy Zaraki+ everyone else.

I don't know if you missed this or deliberately chose not to address it. You can't go on trashing Kubo's art (who by the way is wildly regarded as one of the best artists out there, more so then his story telling) while avoiding the problems with statements as if they are without fault.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

You literally brought this up already and conceded after Xulrev and Tata corrected you, and now you're bringing it up again???

 

[Sekkonds.]

> Disregard Gremmy's statement about being able to destroy Zaraki+ everyone else.

Iam sorry,what does this mean?who said he isn't able to?is it because zaraki defated him? Big No

He is the one who killed him self after all "not killed but something close"

> I don't know if you missed this or deliberately chose not to address it. You can't go on trashing Kubo's art (who by the way is wildly regarded as one of the best artists out there

the art itself of kubo has been considered as inconsistent here..and there are tens of examples about it..like the one i gave that debunks Apple's calc

And how can it be hyperbole when Apple's calc gave close results?and if we used the Shakonmaku it would be higher..so it's obvious that it isn't a hyperbole

 

[AppleLord]

My calc is perfection. It does not inflame the calc to suit an upgrade. We need accuracy, not a calc that's Anti-Occam razor.

 

[The_Causality]

People, just call staff members to quicly reach a conclusion.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

No it's not, your calc is non-sensical outside of having correct math. The Seireitei is 3.1km which you have said yourself on reddit according this calc.


7.3 miles is like 12km meaning Toshiro has a range triple the size of Seirietei.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

I vote for using IMade's calc. Consistent statements are more accurate than pixel scaling from multiple panels which causes objects, people and terrain to vary in scale to one another.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Going into this one blind. If one calc was based on statements only, what exactly was the other calc based on?

 

[Damage3245]

Going into this one blind. If one calc was based on statements only, what exactly was the other calc based on?

A panel that contained both the meteor, and the Silbern (the antagonist's castle).

That calc works by finding the size of the castle, comparing it to the meteor and calcing the destruction based on that.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Going into this one blind. If one calc was based on statements only, what exactly was the other calc based on?

One of the buildings called Silbern which resides in Wadenreich ( a place equal to Seireitei or larger but was inside the shadow of it literally). The calc actually hides the size of Seireitei via that method which is a major part of the CRT. But the author of this calc Applelord has stated it's 3.1km on reddit via his calc which is contradicted by everything.

 

[Qawsedf234]

From what I got, which is admittedly not to much as I wasn't part of the previous CRTs, I back Imade's calc. If the general consensus is to rely more on statements that art for Bleach and that Apple'a calc would produce a area smaller than some Bankai's, I think Imade's calc is probably closer to the lore-intended size.

 

[Elizhaa]

I think Imade's calc is fine. The other calculation is likely inconsitent because the art of Bleach tends to be inconsistent with pixels.

 

[Damage3245]

Okay, I do find that quite funny ^

Since the statement is coming from Yoruichi's catform, maybe we should make a low end version of the calc using cat speed.

 

[Elizhaa]

@Mephistus, while your point might be right; the downplay point was uneeded, a non-argument, Appeal to motive Fallacy so you should stop it.