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Bleach Top Tiers Downgrade

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TataHakai

TataHakai

VS Battles
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I know the verse is in Limbo (Seriously can anyone defeat Madara Uchiha...?)

But this is something i've been meaning to bring up before and even should've argued against on the original calculation

Gremmy and a bunch of other top tiers in Bleach are currently High 6-A based off this calc

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:RavenSupreme/Revising_Bleach_Meteor

However there's something in there that i and it seems some others disagree with too, the context of the feat and how meteor feats work in this forum.

"We use ablation as the indicator for the meteor to get the regular 11km/s to 72km/s velocity, according to Nasa/Meteor Society etc. We dont use ablation speed. If you know of meteor calcs who use just 2KM/S you should revise them" - RavenSupreme

However, our Meteor page and DontTalk say differently

"I'm with what is currently on the calculations page.

That is: If the meteor isn't from space then the 11.2 km/s doesn't apply (as that value originates from the PE of the meteor). In such a case one has to use ablation speed, if that applies." - DontTalkDT

"If the meteor in question was shown to be Ablated, but didn't come from space, we will use Ablation speeds, which are the minimum speed an object needs to move in order for it to be ablated by its own friction with the atmosphere, the values range from 2000-4000 m/s. - Calculations page

If the meteor in question was determined to have come from outer space (or outside of our atmosphere) we will use the value of minimum impact velocity, which is the minimum value of speed an object needs to enter the earths atmosphere, that value is 11,000 m/s. - Calculations page

>>>>The problem with the Gremmy feat is that Gremmy was never shown to imagine it coming from space or outside the SS atmosphere, nor did we ever see it coming from there, we simply saw it a few hundred kilometers up at most when it first appeared, Gremmy had no reason to have it come from space as that would've taken longer.<<<<<<

Thus we need a new calculation for it

Here's a simple one but if the downgrade is accepted then i will make a blog post.

Mass = 3.93278119E+17kg

Speed = 2000 m/s

KE = 187 Teratons of TNT (Large Country, High 6-B)

So Gremmy and anyone who scales to him to be downgraded from High 6-A to High 6-B+

Gremmy would now be - 6-B

2 clones would be - High 6-B

6 clones would be - High 6-B+
 
So, if the meteor come from the space we can use 11 to 72km/s speed, right? And what about when we calc the speed of the meteor for his KE?
 
Typically for space meteor feats we use 11 km/s as the Low End, 20 km/s as the Mid End and 72 km/s as the High End are far as I'm aware.
 
We typically use 11.2 or 20 km/s if there's no way to calculate the speed

But that's only if we see it coming from space.
 
this downgrade shouldnt happen till we finish espadas tiers and LN size .. i guess i can agree about the space thing tho w.e gremmy thinks is real and if hes making a real meteorite then its obv gonna come from space... just syaing
 
just gonna leave some info.. LN can be compared to texas making espadas country and ulq with his 2 ress which are both 5-10x could make them even higher .. and if we assume LN is to HM what sereitei is to SS then this easily gets shut down
 
Gremmy's imagination based reality warping is pretty specific, seeing that he has knowledge of rockets and even knows how space functions via galaxy room even though he was sealed for hundreds of years I think. I don't think it's that ridiculous that he would imagine a meteor moving at its proper speed if he imagined a meteor I'm pretty sure he knows they come from space.
 
The metreor was on fire the moment it appeared,so it's obvious that it wasn't on fire because of the atmosphere
 
Poor bait for derail.

On topic, when you think of a meteor crashing down on you, it coming from space is a pretty common thought. If the meteor is on fire the moment it is thought into existence and not from ablation, the 11km/s speed would make more sense.
 
I could see both sides to this, I would have been inclined to agree... if Gremmy didn't have the move Galaxy Room, a literal portal to space.

Also, Kubo seems to imply it's from space in his Volume Final Chapter Pages Extras, it's there that Kubo usually includes bits of extra information:

  • In chapter 576 when Gremmy summons the meteor it shows nothing but darkness.
  • In chapter 577 when Kenpachi goes to destroy the meteor, it shows the meteor's surface creep out from the darkness.
I clearly take this as the meteor driftly aimlessly through the darkness of space. Now since we know that Gremmy can make portals to space through Galaxy Room and the fact that Kubo implies this meteor is from space, I'm inclined to believe it's from space.
 
Zezu1995 said:
just gonna leave some info.. LN can be compared to texas making espadas country and ulq with his 2 ress which are both 5-10x could make them even higher .. and if we assume LN is to HM what sereitei is to SS then this easily gets shut down
Click to expand...
Okay I've been meaning to talk about this but isn't Resureccion constantly shown to have a smaller power boost than Bankai? Also I don't think we accept bankai multipliers.
 
Peter1129 said:
Zezu1995 said:
just gonna leave some info.. LN can be compared to texas making espadas country and ulq with his 2 ress which are both 5-10x could make them even higher .. and if we assume LN is to HM what sereitei is to SS then this easily gets shut down
Click to expand...
Okay I've been meaning to talk about this but isn't Resureccion constantly shown to be a smaller power boost than Bankai? Also I don't think we accept bankai multipliers.
Click to expand...
we do use bankai multipliers iirc its just we dont use 10 normally 5 but ress is the same as bankai
 
I'm not too knowledgeable on Bleach as I haven't read past the Soul Society arc but I know what happens later on. In this particular case I can believe Gremmy summoning the meteorite from space since he's been shown to has access to space itself via Galaxy Room although I can see where the other side is coming from. Imade does bring up some good points for the meteorite coming from space as well but in the same token the side arguing for it not coming from space brings up valid points as well. I'd consider myself neutral for the time being.
 
We know that when Gremmy distracts himself or needs to focus on something else , his imagination is interrupted.

But he even quotes that even if Kenny killed him, the meteor would not disappear, because he was already a reality.

That is, Gremmy did not create a meteor of his imagination, he simply imagined pulling a meteor. Meteors come from space.
 
USklaverei; he says it is already a reality, as in it wasn't a reality before but now it is.
 
But Gremmy's Visionary constructs go away when he dies as seen with the stage they were on. The fact that the meteor won't means that it isn't a result of his power, he just put it in the sky.
 
Exactly, but as I mentioned, Gremmy when he focuses on something else, his imagination is interrupted. He even quotes that even if he died, it would not disappear.
 
AnonymousBlank said:
But Gremmy's Visionary constructs go away when he dies as seen with the stage they were on. The fact that the meteor won't means that it isn't a result of his power, he just put it in the sky.
Click to expand...
Gremmy has never died before, so he wouldn't really know if it would go away or not.

Saying that he just imagined pulling it down to the surface would imply that there are meteors just hanging above the atmosphere of Soul Society.

I know Soul Society is meant to be a kind of alternate world, but the cosmology of the afterlife would have to be real weird if there were just giant meteors hanging above Soul Society (never mind that the Royal Palace would be in the way).
 
But as we see when Gremmy did die, his imagined constructs disappeared/returned to normal, just as was established by Kenpachi and Gremmy. Why would he agree with what Kenpachi is saying and then contradict himself almost immediately?
 
The question is not about him dying before, but that if he died, his imagination would be interrupted, but he says that even if he died, the meteor would not disappear, there is not much to say here.

He may have pulled the meteor from wherever he is, does not necessarily have to be hovering over the atmosphere of the Soul Society, and even if it is, what is the problem? This seems to me a desperate argument to try to reject this.
 
USklaverei said:
We know that when Gremmy distracts himself or needs to focus on something else , his imagination is interrupted.
But he even quotes that even if Kenny killed him, the meteor would not disappear, because he was already a reality.

That is, Gremmy did not create a meteor of his imagination, he simply imagined pulling a meteor. Meteors come from space.
Click to expand...
This makes no sense at all

Gremmy has never shown the ability to use Telekinesis nor anything outside of his imagination power

Furthemore Gremmy literally says he "Imagined" the meteor falling and wiping everyone out, there's absolutely nothing to suggest he pulled it from space using an ability he never showed, was never stated to use before, at that point or after.

Gremmysa
And he even goes on to say that the power of his imagination doubled creates the meteor which is the first time we see it.
Gremmysawa
As for Imade's argument
"In chapter 576 when Gremmy summons the meteor it shows nothing but darkness."

This is the equivalent of having a blank page at the end of your chapter, it means absolutely nothing at all, and keep in mind the meteor was already falling by the time we saw this age so it pretty much makes no sense to have it represent where it's coming from at the end of the chapter

"In chapter 577 when Kenpachi goes to destroy the meteor, it shows the meteor's surface creep out from the darkness."

And i take it a sketch at the end of a manga which means nothing, it's that, a sketch, if Kubo wanted to show us the exact meteor coming from the "darkness" he would've, but we never got a page or panel IN the chapter besides assumptions

As far as i see it, the best thing to support Gremmy bringing it from space is a random sketch at the end of the chapter, which alone doesn't even prove that the meteor was pulled down from space nor that it was moving at 11.2 km/s, saying Gremmy imagined a meteor in space into SS doesn't give it that speed either as all meteors don't move at 11.2 km/s, only those that are able to enter the atmosphere with sheer speed are.

As for closing the thread, the changes don't have to be made instantly, as is for many accepted CRT's for bleach.
 
Saying that he just imagined pulling it down to the surface would imply that there are meteors just hanging above the atmosphere of Soul Society.

I know Soul Society is meant to be a kind of alternate world, but the cosmology of the afterlife would have to be real weird if there were just giant meteors hanging above Soul Society (never mind that the Royal Palace would be in the way).

Royal palace is in another dimension

SS has sun,moon,stars and other galaxies

So why wouldn't it have metreors?
 
I don't deny that SS has meteors to be fair

Just that this one coming from space is a complete unfounded assumtion and considering the context of Gremmy's power, it just seems unnecessary for him to imagine one coming from space when it's irrelevant for him and would just take more time.
 
Telekinesis? He can reality warp whatever he wants to happen, to happen. Damaged body? Fixed with a thought. Doesn't mean he has healing, just that his reality warp lets him do other stuff he technically can't. He just ripped open space and let one fall like Galaxy Room. Him imagining the meteor falling downward is just it moving down towards the ground not that he created it, further cemented by the fact he says it won't disappear like the rest of his imagination upon death.
 
But there's no proof he opened up space and let one fall

He used galaxy room specifically because it has "no form"

Using galaxy room and waiting for a meteor to fall just seems like an unnecessary step, an extra assumption on your part.

Which means Occam's razor disagrees with you, the step with the least assumptions is likely the correct one.
 
Gremmy is an imagination based reality warper, it's a logical conclusion to assume he imagined the meteor coming at that speed. His imaginations have to be specific or they can backfire.
 
Does not it make sense why? I posted 2 scans where your imagination is interrupted because of your concentration.

"There's absolutely nothing to suggest he's taken out of space."

Just the fact that his creations are interrupted when he dies is already a test. As we saw when he died and the fortitude he created, simply collapsed.

So here we have two options:

1- Gremmy imagined a meteor above the Seireitei

2 - Gremmy imagined himself pulling a meteor

The first one does not make the slightest sense, since as I mentioned above, if this were created by Gremmy's imagination, he would simply collapse, as well as the fortitude he created, but the same quote that even if he died it would, not disappear. Which implies that this was not a meteor created from Gremmy's imagination, but a real meteor.

We also have the last page, right after the Gremmy self-destruct and your thoughts were turned to space, if you connect the dots, it's not very difficult to understand.
 
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