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Bleach Downgrade: Meteor Calcs

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@AppleLord
Wandenreich was where Seireitei used to be, that does not make any sense unless you think that for some unknown reason that area was much smaller than before.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong but the only ones who live in Seireitei are the Shinigami and the Nobility, with the majority of Souls living out in Rukongai districts?

There are only 3,000 Shinigami (roughly) in the Gotei 13. That kind of population (along with however many of the Noble families that there are) living a city that has a diameter of over 1,000 kilometers seems rather weird.

Are there any statements given for the population of the Seireitei?
 
Dargoo Faust said:
The issue is that, as per what you said, none of the actual showings of the city match the statements. Even if the statements are consistent, they're also consistently contradicted by what is shown.
Click to expand...
I don't understand what you mean by this if the drawings contradict themselves every time but there is no contradiction between the words of 100s to thousands of year old spirits.
 
Damage3245 said:
Correct me if I'm wrong but the only ones who live in Seireitei are the Shinigami and the Nobility, with the majority of Souls living out in Rukongai districts?
There are only 3,000 Shinigami (roughly) in the Gotei 13. That kind of population (along with however many of the Noble families that there are) living a city that has a diameter of over 1,000 kilometers seems rather weird.

Are there any statements given for the population of the Seireitei?
Click to expand...
I don't see what this has to do with the size, there are cities within Seireitei and countless buildings.
 
@Sigurd; well, it's just that a smaller population would indicate a smaller sized area. Otherwise there would be countless empty buildings inside Seireitei.

Also, at least one of the images you posted up above is consistent with the double-page spread visual of Seireitei in the Thousand Year Blood War Arc.

So the drawings don't always contradict themselves.
 
Sigurd Snake in The Eye said:
I don't understand what you mean by this if the drawings contradict themselves every time but there is no contradiction between the words of 100s to thousands of year old spirits.
Click to expand...
Even if the drawings contradict themselves, the fact that even then none of them match the statements is jarring.
 
Damage3245 said:
Correct me if I'm wrong but the only ones who live in Seireitei are the Shinigami and the Nobility, with the majority of Souls living out in Rukongai districts?
There are only 3,000 Shinigami (roughly) in the Gotei 13. That kind of population (along with however many of the Noble families that there are) living a city that has a diameter of over 1,000 kilometers seems rather weird.

Are there any statements given for the population of the Seireitei?
Click to expand...
That statement is false, there isn't any statement for the population of Seireitei.
 
Dargoo Faust said:
Even if the drawings contradict themselves, the fact that even then none of them match the statements is jarring.
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Words are easier too keep consistent as opposed to drawings spread across a series that's over 15 years old.
 
@IMade; I think in the Bleach Official Character Book 'Souls' it is stated that the Gotei 13 is made up of about 3,000 Shinigami. I'll try and look up the page soon.
 
I will prefer a link regarding the Bleach Official Characer Book "Souls" given how this is a topic being hotly debated anyway.
 
Sigurd Snake in The Eye said:
Words are easier too keep consistent as opposed to drawings spread across a series that's over 15 years old.
Click to expand...
Yes, but the rule of thumb in any case is what is shown > what is said. Authorial intent is important to consider, but if you're trying to quantify something that doesn't appear at all like it is stated to be, or worse quantify something in comparison to another thing that doesn't appear at all like it's stated to be, the feat itself is practically being ignored.

Refer back to my building example; if we saw someone punched down a 10-story building that was stated to be 14 stories, we would naturally calc it for 10 stories and not 14. Even if it's "consistently" stated to be 14 stories.

The scaling being inconsistent doesn't make taking the statements any more accurate, it just makes the feat unquantifiable.
 
Meaning buying the original Japanese book. I can see that. The only issue is whatever it was mentioned to be 3,000 souls or not is what I want to ask about. If there are scans that doesn't support what Damage say, then he is wrong, but if he is correct, then we have a problem already mired in the already numerous issues regarding how to do this anyway.
 
Dargoo Faust said:
Yes, but the rule of thumb in any case is what is shown > what is said. Authorial intent is important to consider, but if you're trying to quantify something that doesn't appear at all like it is stated to be, or worse quantify something in comparison to another thing that doesn't appear at all like it's stated to be, the feat itself is practically being ignored.

Refer back to my building example; if we saw someone punched down a 10-story building that was stated to be 14 stories, we would naturally calc it for 10 stories and not 14. Even if it's "consistently" stated to be 14 stories.
Click to expand...
This would be an appeal to tradition, I think you're undermining how difficult art is and how difficult it would be too draw a structure so large. This isn't even Kubo's forte who often draws minimal backgrounds because the main focus is the characters and the action.

You're essentially saying if i'm understanding correctly, "who cares about consistently I only care about what I can see regardless of everything". These aren't just random statements. It's so big that characters often don't see each other for years and we have vivid description of a journey involving walking through moutainous terrain and forests just from a gate to the nearest barracks. We have a stated distance from a movie Kubo worked on where a factory exploded and caused 200ri of damage from east to west within Seireitei.

Edit - Okay then, God Tier and High Tier go down to 7-A since their AP calcs depend on Seireitei's size.
 
Dargoo Faust said:
Refer back to my building example; if we saw someone punched down a 10-story building that was stated to be 14 stories, we would naturally calc it for 10 stories and not 14. Even if it's "consistently" stated to be 14 stories.
Click to expand...
i have a better example: imagine a building,that is stated to be 14 stories tall

in panel 1 the said building is only 8 stories tall

in panel 2 - 9 stories

in panel 3 - 12 stories

in panel 4 - 7 stories


how would you calculate that building again?
 
Anyone trying to argue art should be taken over statements is curiously ignoring the fact that Rukongai is right outside the walls of Seireitei yet in the Thousand Year Blood War Arc the Rukongai just mysteriously vanishes from aerial shots altogether.

The aerials we get of Seireitei don't match with the aerials we get of Seiretei. The fact that they don't match statements is going to obviously follow as a conclusion, due to the fact that they are inconsistent in and of themselves.

The statements, however, are 100% consistent in and of themselves and somehow, throughout the entire series, are the only constant on frame of reference for the size of Seireitei. It's honestly amusing to me how people somehow just handwave this fact because art, an inherently perspective-based medium, is somehow 'more accurate' than objective statements.
 
It does work vice versa though. If the statements and the visuals are shown in these scans, then the visuals doesn't match the statement and the statement doesn't match with the visuals. In additional to that, we can not guarantee the statements will be 100% accurate and consistent as the argument seems to leaning to using the only statements method which in term cause conflict between the statements and visuals.
 
Why is inconsistent visual depictions suddenly better to use over consistent descriptions? What makes the visuals suddenly more "authentic/accurate" with all their contradictions over what characters and author says?
 
Hmmmmm while I am unsure about the statements themselves, isn't there are some inconsistencies and contradictions among the numerous statements that hasn't been addressed or was left out (accidentally hopefully)?

Edit: I am currently neutral given the circumstances of this debate.
 
Statements or Implications about Seireitei's Size

  • Yoruichi states it takes 40 days to walk around Seireitei.
  • There are cities inside of Seireitei. Seireitei very much resembles Japan in how it has districts and cities, uses their measurement system.
  • A passage from the novel We Do knot Always Love Youin which three Wolf children travel from a gate of Seireitei straight towards one of the Squad barracks, yet it takes them 3 nights of traveling: "To start with, we thought we should meet Tetsu san, we asked uncle about the location of the 7th division. In order to not be discovered by people, we only traveled at night time, we passed through mountainous terrain and forests……on the night of the third day, in the middle of the forest we detected the scent of a fellow wolf……!"
Statements or Implications about Seireitei's Geography

  • A passage from the novel We Do knot Always Love Youin which three Wolf children travel from a gate of Seireitei straight towards one of the Squad barracks, while traveling they pass mountainous terrain and forest: "To start with, we thought we should meet Tetsu san, we asked uncle about the location of the 7th division. In order to not be discovered by people, we only traveled at night time, we passed through mountainous terrain and forests……on the night of the third day, in the middle of the forest we detected the scent of a fellow wolf……!" Not one aerial shows mountains nor forests in Seireitei.
All this and the fact that no aerial is consistent with another since they contradict each other and would yield entirely different results from one another, the aerials literally contradict canon that has been repeatedly given to us. Only the statements are consistent to each other and indications of size are consistent.
 
Not that I have seen so far. Again, what is there making people think that the statements are unreliable unlike the visuals?
 
Hmmmmm @Imade, I am curious about something. Wasn't there a statement regarding Ichigo being able to go through the Soul Society or something? Don't remember much of Bleach, but I do recall some mentions of how Ichigo traveling or something.


Hmmm
 
HammerStrikes219 said:
Hmmmmm @Imade, I am curious about something. Wasn't there a statement regarding Ichigo being able to go through the Soul Society or something? Don't remember much of Bleach, but I do recall some mentions of how Ichigo traveling or something.


Hmmm
Click to expand...
no
 
Hmmm I may have to go through Bleach's manga again to get a refresher course on this as the possibility for Ichigo traveling through Soul Society with a stated timeframe is there.
 
HammerStrikes219 said:
Hmmmmm @Imade, I am curious about something. Wasn't there a statement regarding Ichigo being able to go through the Soul Society or something? Don't remember much of Bleach, but I do recall some mentions of how Ichigo traveling or something.

Hmmm
Click to expand...
No such statement exists. What Sekkonds' is talking about isn't similar as well since Ichigo used Yoruichi's flying machine to go from the opposite side of the Sokyoku Hill into the Senzaikyu which is all in the center of Seireitei.
 
Sekkonds. said:
He did it once,flying with yourichi's machine
But off screen so no time frame
Click to expand...
Hmmm I still think I should get a refresher course from rereading the manga to ensure we ain't overlooking anything that may seems contrasting heavily and to ensure to ease any doubts espeically my own.
 
Sigurd Snake in The Eye said:
</br>
Click to expand...
Referencing our rules on Statements and Inconsistency isn't an appeal to tradition any more than a prosecutor consulting a list of laws to convict someone is. If my claim was that "we've always disregarded statements, your point is wrong as a result", you might have had a point there.

Sigurd Snake in The Eye said:
You're essentially saying if i'm understanding correctly, "who cares about consistently I only care about what I can see regardless of everything".
Click to expand...
Either you're not understanding correctly or you're making a very simplified strawman of my post. I said that what is seen is of higher value than what is said when evaluating a feat, not that I don't care about consistency or that 'I only care about what I see'. I have also not advocated for either method specifically as of yet; I'm still analyzing both by questioning them.

To speak of consistency, a 'consistent' statement that is consistently contradicted by what is shown isn't consistent. Like a statement saying a man can level a building when they repeatedly shown strain breaking a wall. If the case was "the size we get from scaling and images is inconsistent but it's matched up with the statements once out of whatever many times"; there would be a reasonable case to take the statements. But if you're telling me there is a complete dissonance between the statements and the visuals, then the feat becomes unreliable to evaluate to begin with. You're tossing out half the equation either way.

Sigurd Snake in The Eye said:
Edit - Okay then, God Tier and High Tier go down to 7-A since their AP calcs depend on Seireitei's size.
Click to expand...
I'm not entirely sure why me disagreeing with some of your points turns around the whole revision. I'm completely out of the loop on Bleach, and was asked to comment here by you; I'm just going off of what I can read on this thread.

MetalGearRaiden : i have a better example:wrote imagine a building said:
Why is inconsistent visual depictions suddenly better to use over consistent descriptions? What makes the visuals suddenly more "authentic/accurate" with all their contradictions over what characters and author says?
Click to expand...
Not necessarily better to use, but if the 'inconsistent visual depictions' consistently contradict the statements then the statements aren't exactly reliable either.
 
@Imade

I have no opinion about most of what you said but you kind of disprove your own point about the districts in Seireitei being the size of Japanese districts when you talk about Rukongai. Rukongai surrounds Seireitei and and the very image you linked shows it is bigger than Seireitei, yet Rukongai only has 320 districts while Seireitei has 2400. The problem with this being if Seireitei's districts are the same size Japanese districts, than Seireitei should be 8 times bigger than Rukongai, which is clearly not the case.
 
There are no statements about Shunsui leaving Seireitei, but neither that he didn't. You can't use a low-ball calc to validate Yamamoto's reiatsu to the size of Seireitei when everyone was sensing Yamamoto's reiatsu across Seireitei when he first flew to fight Royd/Yhwach.
 
@Dargoo

I'm probably not understanding your post or not explaining it very well to you since you're not familiar with the series.

Because as you said

"The scaling being inconsistent doesn't make taking the statements any more accurate, it just makes the feat unquantifiable."

Meaning their scaling at EOS is irrelevant since they derive from the Seireitei's size mostly which you deem unquantifable because consistent statements don't match inconsisntent visuals. That is essentially what I got out of the post.

You're not disagreeing with some of my points, you're disagreeing with my entire point altogether since my argument is consistency over inconsisntent visuals. At least that's how I see it.
 
Wokistan said:
The "statements vs size" thing seems to be the issue that this thread aims to address though.
Is there some sort of hierarchy with the manga and novel? Is one considered above the other, or are both on the same level?
Click to expand...
The manga is written and illustrated by the creator of Bleach: Tite Kubo

The Novels are written by a couple different people other than Kubo.

It is worth noting that Narita got to ask Kubo questions, so he should have included at least some leginimate details, particularly regarding the more important things to the story. That is not the same as Kubo doing it himself or being an editor who goes over everything with a fine tooth comb. The author even said Kubo gave them too much freedom with the details.

I don't dismiss the Novels as being groundless. I view them as being supportive. What happens in them is canon up until it contradicts the manga, for then we know it is something Kubo did not okay.

All that said, there are some who prefer Narita>Kubo. :S

Hope that answers your question.
 
AppleLord said:
There are no statements about Shunsui leaving Seireitei, but neither that he didn't. You can't use a low-ball calc to validate Yamamoto's reiatsu to the size of Seireitei when everyone was sensing Yamamoto's reiatsu across Seireitei when he first flew to fight Royd/Yhwach.
Click to expand...
That's incorrect because the place Shunsui takes Nanao is still Seireitei as you can see the tiles on the floor, the Rukongai doesn't have flooring. So it's valid application to it's size.

Nice attempt though to debunk one of the dozens of scans.
 
The novel is written by Narita and Kubo, Clearly Kubo isn't going to write it himself since he isn't a novelist but a mangaka. He's been working with Narita for years over multiple novels.
 
Except when, as IMade showed, what is entirely contradicted and very directly at that is any moment in which the Seireitei as a whole is trying to be depicted. But that doesn't make the mountain in which Rukia trained in the past or trained with Orohime just disappear, nor the forests, for the massive hills, nor there other things we are shown in individual basis but are never shown when Seireitei is drawn as a whole.

This is far too much that points to it being big. This feels like too strictly holding to the rules of "what is shown>what is said". Because what's shown is always different, so the author obviously can't artistically actually depict the scale of what he's talking about. This is not rocket science, seriously.
 
That's incorrect because the place Shunsui takes Nanao is still Seireitei as you can see the tiles on the floor, the Rukongai doesn't have flooring. So it's valid application to it's size.

Nice attempt though to debunk one of the dozens of scans.

The tiles end exactly before where Shunsui puts Nanao down which has grass and a tree shadow. How do you know all of Rukongai looks the same? I don't remember any scan showing all the districts.

You mean the others scan that could easily fit in an alternative dimension like Muken, Soul King Palace, or Urahara's basement? Don't say that they don't have the technology to create large spaces in small areas. None of those statements are ever drawn by Kubo when we see an aerial view of Seireitei. My calc uses Wandenreich which was the current city when the meteor was dropped by Gremmy, Seireitei was sealed in alternative dimension in the shadow dimension.
 
AppleLord said:
The tiles end exactly before where Shunsui puts Nanao down which has grass and a tree shadow. How do you know all of Rukongai looks the same? I don't remember any scan showing all the districts.
Click to expand...
Tiles don't exist in the Rukongai, it's literally a village with shacks for homes and dirt. So yes, your point is null.

You mean the others scan that could easily fit in an alternative dimension like Muken, Soul King Palace, or Urahara's basement? Don't say that they don't have the technology to create large spaces in small areas.
This is a really weird attempt to counter.

Either you're purposefully ignoring all the scans posted or you just didn't read the full comment I made. This seems like a desperate excuse to try to wave 20+ scans at once instead of actually make an argument to counter them.
 
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