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Finite in 4D. Finite doesn't mean its 3rd dimensionality is finite. We know it has its own time axis, and a realm of infinite distance, thats High 3-A/Low 2-C zDiinou HotHead said:
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BIG Fate Extra additions (mainly Extella) + upgrade for the tier 2.
- Thread starter QuasiYuri
- Start date
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So...
A finite as a 4D structure, but infinite as a 3D structure.
I see.
But even if it is an infinite 4D structure, I doubt it qualify for 2A anyway.
A finite as a 4D structure, but infinite as a 3D structure.
I see.
But even if it is an infinite 4D structure, I doubt it qualify for 2A anyway.
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Yeah like thisDiinou HotHead said:
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That's not at all what the quote is implying though
The quote itself is saying that the mooncell is finite so making the labyrinth infinite is impossible. That means the mooncell can't make infinite size things which is clearly false as we see later in the series.
The quote isn't saying it has a finite 4d space at all, it's saying thay creating infinite 3d spaces is impossible.
"... the Labyrinth cannot become infinite." Is the main part of the quote, they were talking about the labyrinth's size and how it can't be made infinite thanks to the mooncell but that doesn't really make sense considering everything else. I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion of infinite 3d finite 4d from this singular quote about the limitations of the labyrinth.
The quote itself is saying that the mooncell is finite so making the labyrinth infinite is impossible. That means the mooncell can't make infinite size things which is clearly false as we see later in the series.
The quote isn't saying it has a finite 4d space at all, it's saying thay creating infinite 3d spaces is impossible.
"... the Labyrinth cannot become infinite." Is the main part of the quote, they were talking about the labyrinth's size and how it can't be made infinite thanks to the mooncell but that doesn't really make sense considering everything else. I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion of infinite 3d finite 4d from this singular quote about the limitations of the labyrinth.
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Your ignoring the grammatical structure. The "Which is finite" is referring strictly to the Mooncell as i pointed out its a "restrictive clause" Which as i pointed out "A restrictive clause adds necessary information about something you have mentioned in a sentence before the clause."
Its indiciting the Mooncell is finite not the 3rd dimensional spaces within it. The Mooncell has a clearly defined Time Axis, and a realm of infinite space. Low 2-C . To take Rani's statement at facevalue means that the Mooncell only has a finite 4-D volume.
Its indiciting the Mooncell is finite not the 3rd dimensional spaces within it. The Mooncell has a clearly defined Time Axis, and a realm of infinite space. Low 2-C . To take Rani's statement at facevalue means that the Mooncell only has a finite 4-D volume.
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I think you're missing the actual point of the sentence
It is saying the mooncell is finite and thus there can not be an infinite space within it
Its saying that the labyrinth can't be infinite because the mooncell isnt infinite
It is saying the mooncell is finite and thus there can not be an infinite space within it
Its saying that the labyrinth can't be infinite because the mooncell isnt infinite
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I literally provided proof in the same scans that prove 2-A. The fact that they can cease operation proves that all the timelines (other than those that are culled obviously) are in operation at once.LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
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To be fair, there is no indication the labyrinth was infinite. It was expanding infinitely until she reached the core. Still the far side of the Moon is a realm of infinite distance, a time axis is directly stated, and there is a lot of information on time.
If the mooncell is finite anywhere within it. It would have to be in the 4th dimension due to what is clearly defined, shown, and explained.
If the mooncell is finite anywhere within it. It would have to be in the 4th dimension due to what is clearly defined, shown, and explained.
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I don't see where this "4D axis is its limit" claim comes from. That's certainly not what the quote is implying. And the sentence itself is contradictory as the Moon Cell has infinite areas within itself. Moon Cell is only finite when observed from the outside. That's why we don't take every statement at face value.
"....a much more in-depth explanation of the cosmology...". Your comments are basically equaling Moon Cell to our computers. The fact that you are simplifying complex mechanics of the Moon Cell to this level is ridiculous.
"....a much more in-depth explanation of the cosmology...". Your comments are basically equaling Moon Cell to our computers. The fact that you are simplifying complex mechanics of the Moon Cell to this level is ridiculous.
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Welcome to Fate debating
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The quote is implying that the Mooncell itself does infact have a limit. its not infinite dimensional thats for sure. Those "infinite areas" are infinite 3rd dimensional spaces. There isn't anything showing they are Infinite 4th dimensional spaces.
The "4D axis" is what is directly stated to have. 3+1 D = a space-time continuum. Thats low 2-C. we have sufficient evidence supporting that. That is where i am getting it from.
Rani saying it is finite. it is finite in dimensionality. I am sure you are aware that according to this wiki for right now that each dimenison is infinities superior to the other nefore it? its as simple as that. its dimensionality is finite.
The "4D axis" is what is directly stated to have. 3+1 D = a space-time continuum. Thats low 2-C. we have sufficient evidence supporting that. That is where i am getting it from.
Rani saying it is finite. it is finite in dimensionality. I am sure you are aware that according to this wiki for right now that each dimenison is infinities superior to the other nefore it? its as simple as that. its dimensionality is finite.
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Thats... uh... a lot of Kudo's you got there...
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also i agree with 2-B upgrades
ShinyMagicalGirl
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I think 2-A is fine. Iapitus pretty much convinced me, especially with that Last Encore feat. For a compromise, "At least 2-B, likely 2-A"?
Still, what's the consensus on the tiering? Stay at Low 2-C, Buff to 2-B or buff to 2-A?
Still, what's the consensus on the tiering? Stay at Low 2-C, Buff to 2-B or buff to 2-A?
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I don't think we're even past "Does the Mooncell really simulate all possibilities at once?"ShinyMagicalGirl said:
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The fact that it will cease operation of all possibilities implies that it has all possibilities operated (minus those that are culled of course).
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You should ask the staff members listed in the Fate/Extra verse page (along with other Fate series verse pages) and the Knowledgeable Members List to comment here.
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Preferably OP should be edited so that all the feats are in one place or someone should write them all in one comment. It would make it easier for others, who didn't participate in this thread, to evaluate these feats.
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Another thing to recommend is drop the other Extella revisions for now, this is more of a "Revising the Mooncell's Cosmology" Thread.
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Why not talk about both? It seems the abilities are mostly resolved
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If the abilities part are resolved, I think the Mooncell Cosmology is the only thing left to deal with.
But that said, keep the abilities thingy on the OP, so we can add them later.
But that said, keep the abilities thingy on the OP, so we can add them later.
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The scans implying the Mooncell actually recreate the possibilities: https://imgur.com/a/Nac2oL
The scans about the possibilities being infinite: https://imgur.com/6it71LL https://imgur.com/gallery/jDHKmMv
The scans about the possibilities being infinite: https://imgur.com/6it71LL https://imgur.com/gallery/jDHKmMv
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Okay, I'm just gonna explain this all in detail using actual information from the Extella game and from its Material book because this is getting absurd. This is from the Altera Chapter Prologue by the way.
"The World is not one; rather, like a reflection in a pair of opposing mirrors, it infinitely unfolds. Consequently, there cannot exist only a single future -- or so it's thought. In other words --
Let's explain it like this. The you that exists right now can be described as a you that exists somewhere within this flow of time.
It's probably difficult for you to envision. After all, it's impossible for humans to even perceive "the Boundaries Between Worlds" (õ©ûþòîÒü«Õúü, Sekai no Kabe) -- much less what lies beyond.
So, how about I rephrase? Worlds that run adjacent are essentially as "possibilities." "
See here how the existence of possibilities are acknowledged, and even the denomitation of "infinite" by comparison to two mirrors reflecting off one another. The game itself does indeed say there are infinite possibilities, I even agreed with this. But, here is a little tidbit further forward in this very same info dumb after we are told how worlds too perfect or too hellish can't propagate as choices can't change the status quo anymore.
"But why do such realities become solitary? Shouldn't it be that whatever the future, the possibility of adjacent advancement persists?
Unfortunately, this isn't the case. The energy to account for the proliferation of unnecessary worlds, exists nowhere within this dimension (µ¼íÕàâ, Jige?).
That is to say, the ceaseless proliferation of Adjacent Realities may eventually exceed the capacity of the Dimension as a whole.
Adjacent Realities are a necessary existence, but they cannot be let to freely multiply."
We are straight out told that energy to account for endless multiplication is nonexistant. Now, take into account something interesting. Multiply, profilerate, grow, and so I ask... how can something infinite multiply? Some infinities are bigger than others from an arithmetic point of view, but this has nothing to do with multiplicating infinity x 2. Just as the finite, if massive, universe we live in expands infinitely despite not being infinite, adjacent worlds have a finite number that expands infinitely. Notice in the first excerpt the use of "it infinitely unfolds", does that sound like something infinite in span or something infinitely growing?
Now you might ask, what about possibilities? Well they are just that... possibilities. A possibility existing doesn't equate a timeline being immediately created. "Worlds that run adjacent are essentially as "possibilities.". If we were to draw the timelines in a graph as lines that advance forward, as the game itself does, and a possibility becomes a new timeline 1000 years in the future, is it adjacent to the timeline it sprouted from 1000 years in the past? ... Well no, because it didn't exist. You can't draw a line because at that point in time, it didn't exist.
"An event that manifests at regular intervals for the purpose of anchoring the Average Expressio (Õ╣│ÕØçÕÇñ, heikin-chi?, lit. "Average Values") of phenomena as absolutes.
This universe permits the birth of unlimited possibilities, numerous adjacent worlds, and divergent developments of history.
However, as the unrestricted propagation of this process would exhaust the lifespan of the universe, at set intervals, those extraneous worlds ''routes'' (õ©ûþòî Òâ½Òâ╝Òâê', sekairu-to) removed of the category of "routes characterized by survivability and stability" are culled (õ╝ɵÄí, basai, lit. "cull" / "prune"), so as to prevent the needless expenditure of energy."
Supporting evidence if it was even needed from the Fate/Extella Material book.
So, even if the moon cell has infinite possibilities recorded, they are just that, possibilities. And now, the biggest issue. Has literally ANY OF YOU at any point found any sort of evidence that the moon cell simulates all the data it has recopiled? This isn't digimon, this data isn't a thing that exists at all times as something tangible just because it's inside the Moon Cell. The Moon Cell also analyzes the planet every nanosecond, do we have billions of trillions of planet earth's inside the moon cell as well because of this stored data? Are the Servants manifested at all times somewhere since their data exists in the moon cell?
"It is the brain that stores the data about the past and future.
It observes the determination of every possible destiny every second, computes further results, and stores everything inside itself as light. There are untold tens of millions of lights years of light trapped within the core, and the entire photonic crystal structure is also powered by it.
A certain person named Moon Cell's core, "The Destiny Perceiving Dendrogram." "
Observes, computes, and then stores everything inside itself as light. As a quantum supercomputer made of photonic crystals that use light itself to make calculations and as a storing device for data, does this sound like infinite Low 2-C timelines stored inside of it, or like records and data it has calculated? Because, you know, it's an observation device. Even terminating "infinite possibilities" means nothing, if those possibilities are born from very, very finite timelines. Shut those off and where are possibilities gonna come? From nothing? This means the Moon Cell gets a 2-B at best, and that's only because of Last Encore. There's also Upgrade's direct statement about the finite nature of the moon cell, but that's a side thing.
"The World is not one; rather, like a reflection in a pair of opposing mirrors, it infinitely unfolds. Consequently, there cannot exist only a single future -- or so it's thought. In other words --
Let's explain it like this. The you that exists right now can be described as a you that exists somewhere within this flow of time.
It's probably difficult for you to envision. After all, it's impossible for humans to even perceive "the Boundaries Between Worlds" (õ©ûþòîÒü«Õúü, Sekai no Kabe) -- much less what lies beyond.
So, how about I rephrase? Worlds that run adjacent are essentially as "possibilities." "
See here how the existence of possibilities are acknowledged, and even the denomitation of "infinite" by comparison to two mirrors reflecting off one another. The game itself does indeed say there are infinite possibilities, I even agreed with this. But, here is a little tidbit further forward in this very same info dumb after we are told how worlds too perfect or too hellish can't propagate as choices can't change the status quo anymore.
"But why do such realities become solitary? Shouldn't it be that whatever the future, the possibility of adjacent advancement persists?
Unfortunately, this isn't the case. The energy to account for the proliferation of unnecessary worlds, exists nowhere within this dimension (µ¼íÕàâ, Jige?).
That is to say, the ceaseless proliferation of Adjacent Realities may eventually exceed the capacity of the Dimension as a whole.
Adjacent Realities are a necessary existence, but they cannot be let to freely multiply."
We are straight out told that energy to account for endless multiplication is nonexistant. Now, take into account something interesting. Multiply, profilerate, grow, and so I ask... how can something infinite multiply? Some infinities are bigger than others from an arithmetic point of view, but this has nothing to do with multiplicating infinity x 2. Just as the finite, if massive, universe we live in expands infinitely despite not being infinite, adjacent worlds have a finite number that expands infinitely. Notice in the first excerpt the use of "it infinitely unfolds", does that sound like something infinite in span or something infinitely growing?
Now you might ask, what about possibilities? Well they are just that... possibilities. A possibility existing doesn't equate a timeline being immediately created. "Worlds that run adjacent are essentially as "possibilities.". If we were to draw the timelines in a graph as lines that advance forward, as the game itself does, and a possibility becomes a new timeline 1000 years in the future, is it adjacent to the timeline it sprouted from 1000 years in the past? ... Well no, because it didn't exist. You can't draw a line because at that point in time, it didn't exist.
"An event that manifests at regular intervals for the purpose of anchoring the Average Expressio (Õ╣│ÕØçÕÇñ, heikin-chi?, lit. "Average Values") of phenomena as absolutes.
This universe permits the birth of unlimited possibilities, numerous adjacent worlds, and divergent developments of history.
However, as the unrestricted propagation of this process would exhaust the lifespan of the universe, at set intervals, those extraneous worlds ''routes'' (õ©ûþòî Òâ½Òâ╝Òâê', sekairu-to) removed of the category of "routes characterized by survivability and stability" are culled (õ╝ɵÄí, basai, lit. "cull" / "prune"), so as to prevent the needless expenditure of energy."
Supporting evidence if it was even needed from the Fate/Extella Material book.
So, even if the moon cell has infinite possibilities recorded, they are just that, possibilities. And now, the biggest issue. Has literally ANY OF YOU at any point found any sort of evidence that the moon cell simulates all the data it has recopiled? This isn't digimon, this data isn't a thing that exists at all times as something tangible just because it's inside the Moon Cell. The Moon Cell also analyzes the planet every nanosecond, do we have billions of trillions of planet earth's inside the moon cell as well because of this stored data? Are the Servants manifested at all times somewhere since their data exists in the moon cell?
"It is the brain that stores the data about the past and future.
It observes the determination of every possible destiny every second, computes further results, and stores everything inside itself as light. There are untold tens of millions of lights years of light trapped within the core, and the entire photonic crystal structure is also powered by it.
A certain person named Moon Cell's core, "The Destiny Perceiving Dendrogram." "
Observes, computes, and then stores everything inside itself as light. As a quantum supercomputer made of photonic crystals that use light itself to make calculations and as a storing device for data, does this sound like infinite Low 2-C timelines stored inside of it, or like records and data it has calculated? Because, you know, it's an observation device. Even terminating "infinite possibilities" means nothing, if those possibilities are born from very, very finite timelines. Shut those off and where are possibilities gonna come? From nothing? This means the Moon Cell gets a 2-B at best, and that's only because of Last Encore. There's also Upgrade's direct statement about the finite nature of the moon cell, but that's a side thing.
ShinyMagicalGirl
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Sounds reasonable. 2-B it is then, I guess.
Would this scale to BB, given that she merged with the Mooncell? AKA 2-B BB?
Huh. 2-B. BB. 2 Bs.
Would this scale to BB, given that she merged with the Mooncell? AKA 2-B BB?
Huh. 2-B. BB. 2 Bs.
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She has the full administrative rights of the Moon Cell at that point, so I don't see why not.
I don't like using the feat from Last Encore due to how... silly that anime is about a lot of stuff, but unless I watch the entire series or look for the entire scene to see if there's any missing context, I can't really refute it.
ShinyMagicalGirl
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Yeah, Last Encore wasn't really the best. I'm also sad one of my husbandos Robin Hood isn't as important, but at least he was cool in Extella Link.
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I was just happy to see both him and his master animated in what was, admittedly, pretty good detail and quality. Especially seeing his master fight again.
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Messaged Solacis. He's the only one I think is active lately.
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2-B Fate vs 2-B persona ovo
ShinyMagicalGirl
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Nyarlathotep VS Goetia (Assuming 2-B for Fate is accepted) sounds really cool...
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Once we get nyar's page updated, ye
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Well... Before matched get planned.... This thread still needs staff evaluation, and a summary of points would probably be appreciated by the staff who chose to evaluate this
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This thread has 2 main topics, really.
1. Does the Mooncell really recreate all the possibilities? (Answer: Ask that Last Encore Scan)
2. How many possibilities are there? (Rani and Goetia said there were infinite. But in Extella it's stated to "infinitely expand")
1. Does the Mooncell really recreate all the possibilities? (Answer: Ask that Last Encore Scan)
2. How many possibilities are there? (Rani and Goetia said there were infinite. But in Extella it's stated to "infinitely expand")
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1. Clearly yes, going by Last Encore.
and 2. These aren't really mutually exclusive? Something infinite can still infinitely expand. Infinity is a wierd concept like that.
and 2. These aren't really mutually exclusive? Something infinite can still infinitely expand. Infinity is a wierd concept like that.
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Then aren't we clear?
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