BIG Fate Extra additions (mainly Extella) + upgrade for the tier 2.

[TheUnshakableOne]

I see, thanks then. Would this affect anything though?

Nothing in terms of AP, but this would scale to the Mooncell, and BB by giving them Mind Hax resistance, better Mind Hax, broken ass precog, and maybe MAYBE better law manipulation. but that last one idk but definetly better mind related stuff.

 

[Paul_Frank]

But either way, the Mooncell can store and observe these infinite possibilities right? So while the World isn't 2-A, I thinkkkkk the Mooncell can be, as it can store and observe the infinite possibilties of the World? I mean, this would imply the World is inferior to the Mooncell...

But then we have this whole simulated thingy, and that kinda ruins like, everything in this thread.

The World should also be able to store these infinite possibilities since it is pretty clearly equal to or superior to the computer, the single statement about it taking too much energy can be dismissed thanks to the number of statements saying there are infinite possibilities and parallel worlds.

The simulation thing is like the Vex simulations in Destiny and are as real as anything else in the verse

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

But either way, the Mooncell can store and observe these infinite possibilities right? So while the World isn't 2-A, I thinkkkkk the Mooncell can be, as it can store and observe the infinite possibilties of the World? I mean, this would imply the World is inferior to the Mooncell...
But then we have this whole simulated thingy, and that kinda ruins like, everything in this thread.

I mean, even though it's taken as a gag on many levels, Arcueid takes the authority of the Moon Cell like a suggestion more than anything, and even though both struggled, both could defeat the White Titan sent by Velber. It makes pretty much no sense for the Moon Cell to be above the World, or rather above the Multiverse. The pruning isn't just a thing in Earth, it's a multiversal thing. Otherwise, Archimedes wouldn't have to worry about the Quantum Timelock.

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

Yeah, but Lancelot said that those are only possibilities and not actual worlds. So maybe the world is potentially 2-A, but is very high end 2-B, but only potentially. However, since Rani and other statements say that the Mooncell can observe and store infinite possibilities, it should be 2-A... I think.

As for the 5D thing, so only for hax then huh? She did merge with the Mooncell, but yeah I guess BB's gonna be a smurf then.

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

I think the Mooncell could be above the Multiverse, actually? Since it literally observes and sees the entire infinite possibilities of the World like a book, as what UpgradeMan said.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Like I said, the possibilities can be actual literal timelines, if we take the statement at face value, because then there's no growing timelines as all possible possibilities also exist. It would also mean pruning timelines because the multiverse doesn't have infinite energy makes no sense and doesn't work, because there would still be infinite timelines left. That's completely contradicting what we are told about pruning and about how the multiverse doesn't have infinite amounts of energy to sustain timelines.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

CCC came out in 2004 maybe 20008? Its possible the cosmology got retconned. The Mooncell is simply has the ability to have a higher dimensional view of multiverse, and all its history. Yes, that is being above the multiverse in a certain way, but its only a view, a perspective of mind, but the Mooncell so far has no feats of interacting with those worlds (Other than viewing them for Analysis) besides what we know in the CCC collab with F/Go

 

[Paul_Frank]

@lancelot

So you want to dismiss all the statements about infinite parallel worlds because of the one statement about it taking too much energy to sustain infinite worlds?

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

If CCC got retconned, how do you explain the CCC/FGO collab?

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

I see no reason to assume one of the most important lore dumps of Extella about how the world works would be retconned when there's no indication of this. Like, we are taking a throw away statement from a translation that doesn't give us the japanese context over being clearly and directly told "pruning exists because we can't have infinite timelines, also Quantum Timelock is gonna **** Archimedes over so he wants to succeed before that happens".

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

No, no.. Im being misunderstood...

I am saying that when CCC was first releases it was possible for the multiverse to be infinite in size, but with the release of Extella (a newer release). The Multiverse being Infinite may have gotten retconned into being Infinitely expanding but not reaching a true infinity.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Ahhhhh, my bad I did misunderstood you.

Then again, it could be that for the translators, infinitely expanding and infinite is the very same. I've tried to explain the idea to people before and many find it confusing.

 

[Paul_Frank]

The quantum time locks were going to screw Archimedes because it guarantees that he doesn't succeed if one is put into place. This doesn't mean there are less universes now this just means that this one event is stuck in place and can't be changed.

We are also told that by Goetia that there are infinite timelines and iirc his precog allows him to see across these infinite timelines.

We are told that Kaleidoscope allows operation of parallel worlds and that it draws energy from infinite worlds

We are told multiple times that there are infinite possibilities as well.

The one line about The World/Mooncell being unable to sustain infinite worlds doesn't really work if you take it at face value since there are all the other statements that clearly say there are infinite.

Also Solomon came out after Extella so Goetia's infinite statement is the newest one regarding the number of timelines

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

Ah I see.

So basically what we know for sure:

- The World can have infinite timelines and universes and it does have the potential, but it would destroy the multiverse outright.

- The World has a defense system against this, which are the Quantum Timelocks. These prevent the infinitely expanding worlds to accumulate, meaning that the World at its current state has countless (not infinite) universes. (2-B, very high at that)

- The Mooncell sees the entire history and all infinite possibilities like a book (High 2-A/5D perspective), and Rani has also stated that Mooncell can store and observe infinite timelines and possibilities. This doesn't contradict the World itself, since its the Mooncell that does this. So while the World can't handle infinite timelines, the Mooncell can and stores them.

Supporting statements:

- Goetia said that his rings of light are the infinite possibilities of human history, similar to the Mooncell's observation thing.

- In the Last Encore anime, Chakravartin can basically wipe out everything. However, I'm not sure if the timelines it was going to wipe out were the Mooncell's stored ones, or the actual World's timelines. (Help me out here Iapitus)

Did I miss anything else, or any errors?

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

@lancelot
So you want to dismiss all the statements about infinite parallel worlds because of the one statement about it taking too much energy to sustain infinite worlds?

Do I wanna disregard a throw away comment about infinite possibilities and another about Goetia burning those even though we literally see he just burns 5000 years of our history, and decide to believe an indepth explanation about the mechanics of the world that were directly relevant to the main villain's goal?

Yes, I do believe I wanna do that, and I am surprised you would even ask this.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

The Mooncell being able to store the infromation of other worlds is rerferring to its ability to store the information its reached through an analysis then apply that informaiton to its own universe within for the sake of accuracy. its not literally storing a multiverse. (if that makes sense)

 

[Paul_Frank]

The mooncell also recreates everything it records though, that's the purpose of the serial phantasm and stuff. So in a way it is literally storing a multiverse

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

So basically everything the Mooncell stores and the things within it are only analysis and are not real then right?

Then this thread is pointless. There's no upgrade here if the timelines inside the Mooncell aren't real. It should stick at Low 2-C. Maybe hax only.

 

[Paul_Frank]

@shiny

The things it records are also recreated and simulated within the mooncell though hence the entirety of Fate/Extra existing.

The simulations aren't fake they are just as real as everything else in the verse just like the Vex simulations im destiny

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

What does the information come from that it simulates everything it records?

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

What does the information come from that it simulates everything it records?

Here. It specifically says "is an observational device that simulates the future of the Earth, and stores those records continuously, at regular intervals."

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Being able to simulate everything it records and simulating it the moment they are recorded are two very different things.

And Paul, take a moment to consider that, once again, those are all throw away statements that don't dispel in anyway the dump of world building from Extella. You are deciding to put more weight on statements without more context or information to them rather than an indepth analysis of how and why timelines work. That's asinine, incredibly so.

Not to mention, for timelines to grow infinitely there must be infinite possibilities. This is pure logic. But assuming a timeline sprouts out the moment a possibility exists it's nonsensical and has no ground to stand on when it completely contradicts the notion of a growing number or of culling that growing number to one that's smaller.

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

Alright then. So now the million dollar question:

Does this change the tiers of Mooncell tiers to 2-B/2-A, or does it stay at Low 2-C?

Because that was the whole point of this thread, to determine whether or not the Mooncell gets buffed from Low 2-C to higher tiers. If it doesn't, then we can safely conclude this thread, as I think Lancelot makes sense.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Well tbh.. That is for staff to decide we can only try to convince them of our points..

but someone has to message them...

 

[Paul_Frank]

@lancelot

The problem is that those cant just all be throw away statements when there are multiple statements across multiple works at different points in the verse all saying that there are infinite worlds and possibilies. I'm choosing to put more weight on the repeated statements supporting infinite worlds than the one part of Extella that suggests otheriwse, yes.

Solomon literally came out after Extella so Goetia related statements and feats with the timeline and possibilies are the newest things. Kaleidoscope has been repeatedly said to operate parallel worlds and draw power from an infinite amount of them in every mention etc.

For timelines to grow there must be infinite possibilites yes, good thing we have confirmation that there are infinite possibilities. Disregarding the fact that it is extremely likely that a timeline sprouts the moment there is a possibility, thats not needed either. Quantum timelocks being put into place and culling possibiliies don't suddenly stop there from being infinite possibilites, because again infinite-1 is still infinite. So the timelines can come into existence at any rate and there could still be infinite

If quantum timelocks remove some possibilites from an infinite amount of them there are still an infinite amount

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

So if the Mooncell simulates and stores actual universes and has infinite amounts, it can be 2-A.

If not and the universes inside it aren't real, it stays at Low 2-C.

That's all it takes to decide whether this gets a buff or not. Although the 5-D hax for the Mooncell seems plausible too, thanks for that UpgradeMan.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

There is multiple multiverses CONFIRMED

 

[Paul_Frank]

The mooncell stores the observations, recreated and simulates them. These simulations are pretty darn real too as seen in Fate/Extra since even things like it's makeshift root that can grant wishes are actually real.

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

>Multiple multiverses

That sounds redundant lmao

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

better than Ultra-MegaVerse

 

[Paul_Frank]

o m n i v e r s e

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

only if we could prove the series follows M-theory, or super string theory then we could try to push for Megaversal BB

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

The problem is that they could actually be throw away statements considering we are given no further context, and the idea of something that infinitely expands and something that is actually infinite is confusing for many people. Even more so, one of those statements come from the Extra anime, which has such interesting changes of setting such as the whole "Death Face"phenomenon, altering the whole structure of the Holy Grail War and showing Nero capable of blocking Sun Boosted Gawain's NP and even stealing a ship from Drake's Golden Armada NP because "Imperial Privilege". Call me biased, but I barely trust anything from that adaptation to apply to the rest of Fate.

So there's a whole game explaining the context in depth and a single line from Solomon without further context blows it away? Not to mention he had only incinerated the energy from 5000 years of humanity's history in ONE timeline but suddenly he also did this across infinite ones? How does that make sense?

I just don't think the Moon Cell being able to calculate said possibilities equate to it literally having the entirety of them inside of it and simulating it at the very same time as every other timeline... wait, from which games does the Rani line even come from?

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

>Multiple multiverses
That sounds redundant lmao

Under our tiering system , it isn't funnily enough :U

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

Rani's line comes from the Extra series, AKA Fate/Extra.

I also don't think the Mooncell literally simulates infinite timelines all at the same time. Maybe it can, but that's weird to assume.

But still, this means the Mooncell DOES have real universes inside of it, and it has an infinite amount. So 2-A...

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Meaning it would have come before Extella, which is who introduced the whole idea.

That said, the Moon Cell being above the planet or the multiverse itself just makes no sense to me, since nothing implies this besides the statements if we take them at face value.

Also, gotta make a Zelretch profile even thought it'll be bare as ****.

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

I mean, the Mooncell has observed the World from the beginning of human history, so maybe they're equals?

The Mooncell having infinite timeline inside it seems pretty straightforward. But what tier do you think this should all be? And just because its older, it doesn't mean its automatically invalidated. It was also mentioned in Last Encore too, which came after Extella.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

At the exact same time archimedes is explaining the culling/prunning/quantum timelock. he also explains how the Mooncell can observe the entire multiverse and all its history for the sake of an accurate anaylsis. they happen in the exact same scene.

 

[Paul_Frank]

@lancelot

So being told that there is a world for every possibility, that kscope uses energy from an infinite amount of these worlds, that Goetia can see over an infinite amount of worlds etc, are all throw away statments because they lack furthur context. I'm sorry but thats not how it works, if they hammer in those infinite statments and repeat it time and time again its pretty clear what their intentions are.

No its not that a single line from Solomon blows it away. What blows it away is the multiple statements all throughout the verse. The game doesnt really spend much time explaining the context either honestly, the quantum timelocks dont suddenly delete infinite worlds it, as it's name implies, locks the events in place. This reduces possibilites sure but again infinite-1 is infinite.

Extella being newer doesn't make the things that happen in the rest of the series less valid, and again, using the "newer" argument Solomon and Last Encore are the newest and also supports infinite worlds.

there is a Zelretch profile

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

I am honestly more surprised I didn't know there was a Zelretch profile, so I'll go meditate that in a dark corner.

And by the way, yeah. I do feel they are throw away statements if even after we are told about the pruning process, the statements about infinite still keep appearing, at least in the sense that the Moon Cell replicates even the possibilities that don't exist because by then it's not observing the world, it's growing past it. And if Archimedes can't do anything after the Quantum Timelock, it would mean the Moon Cell is under the jurisdiction of the universe despite the fact it's way more powerful than it by degrees of infinity, and Archimedes should be still able to do something if he has that much power and enough intelligence to be the main engineer in charge of the moon cell.

But yeah, I'll keep going with this later. My mind is a bit off having to handle something else.