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Oh wait. Not yet clear. Until we messaged the staffs and Knowledgable Members
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BIG Fate Extra additions (mainly Extella) + upgrade for the tier 2.
- Thread starter QuasiYuri
- Start date
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You messaged him?
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I'll take a full look at the list and message them later when I have the time.
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I think it's already established that Moon Cell contains possibilities and that this point is solid. Debatable part is "how many?". In case that "infinite" doesn't get accepted, how many possibilities are we considering then? Basically, what tier would be assigned to this? I assume some really high-end 2-B is the aim here, with 2-C being the absolute lowest rating.
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2-C if we just use all Nasuverse fictions
2-B if we treat it as "infinitely expanding"
2-A if we treat it as infinite
As for the staff members Ant told me to message, I see Dargoo, Dragonmaster, and glassman who were on the Supporters list.
Maybe I would try messaging Monarch as well.
Now I'm off messaging.
2-B if we treat it as "infinitely expanding"
2-A if we treat it as infinite
As for the staff members Ant told me to message, I see Dargoo, Dragonmaster, and glassman who were on the Supporters list.
Maybe I would try messaging Monarch as well.
Now I'm off messaging.
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Well, I just messaged the staffs about this thread. So making a new one might result in me having to nessage them about the new thread again, so I don't think it's a god idea.
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Maybe put these scans in the Thread for reference as well? I would love to write to thread, but to be honest I suck at literature so much I don't think I can write it well.Diinou HotHead said:
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Considering I already gave a through explanation and that a complete infinite set cannot grow, hence complete, I obviously only agree with 2-B.
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A complete infinite set can actually grow
In addition as said in this thread there is a single quote from Extella that is used as the basis for your argument. That single quote can be dismissed as it is contradicted by the rest of the series similar to the whole "the labyrinth cant be infinite if it's in the mooncell" which is shown wrong in the very next chapter by BB and her special space
In addition as said in this thread there is a single quote from Extella that is used as the basis for your argument. That single quote can be dismissed as it is contradicted by the rest of the series similar to the whole "the labyrinth cant be infinite if it's in the mooncell" which is shown wrong in the very next chapter by BB and her special space
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A single quote from Extella? So you are literally gonna ignore the pretty long post I made above?
Literally all your quotes are about infinite possibilities, which both I and the quotes, plural, I provided actually acknowledge. If you are gonna dismiss what I said so dishonestly, don't even make a CRT and just apply the change.
I would also love to see from where do you pull that a complete infinite set can grow.
Literally all your quotes are about infinite possibilities, which both I and the quotes, plural, I provided actually acknowledge. If you are gonna dismiss what I said so dishonestly, don't even make a CRT and just apply the change.
I would also love to see from where do you pull that a complete infinite set can grow.
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Okay not a single quote but a single chapter of Extella
You're saying the part about it infinitely growing means it cant already be infinite which is incorrect. An infinite number that is increasing is still an infinite number, it is simply a higher infinity.
The whole "energy for endless multiplication being nonexistent" thing can again be dismissed as inconsistent or inaccurate based on the rest of the franchise. Even if true it also doesn't necessarily disprove infinite worlds either. If there are already infinite worlds, as the rest of the franchise supports, then it could mean that there isn't enough energy to support the endless growth of an infinite amount of worlds which is why culling happens.
There are worlds for every possibility and there are an infinite amount of possibilities which you even acknowledge, which means there are an infnite amount of worlds.
The answer to the question of "does the mooncell simulate what it records" is yes. This is the entire point of the mooncell, this is supported by both Last Encore and Extella as well
You seem to think that an infinite number and infinitely growing are mutually exclusive which is incorrect. Something can be both infinite and still grow infinitely. So the prologue from Extella doesn't exactly directly disprove infinite worlds anyway.
You're saying the part about it infinitely growing means it cant already be infinite which is incorrect. An infinite number that is increasing is still an infinite number, it is simply a higher infinity.
The whole "energy for endless multiplication being nonexistent" thing can again be dismissed as inconsistent or inaccurate based on the rest of the franchise. Even if true it also doesn't necessarily disprove infinite worlds either. If there are already infinite worlds, as the rest of the franchise supports, then it could mean that there isn't enough energy to support the endless growth of an infinite amount of worlds which is why culling happens.
There are worlds for every possibility and there are an infinite amount of possibilities which you even acknowledge, which means there are an infnite amount of worlds.
The answer to the question of "does the mooncell simulate what it records" is yes. This is the entire point of the mooncell, this is supported by both Last Encore and Extella as well
You seem to think that an infinite number and infinitely growing are mutually exclusive which is incorrect. Something can be both infinite and still grow infinitely. So the prologue from Extella doesn't exactly directly disprove infinite worlds anyway.
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https://www.mathsisfun.com/numbers/infinity.html
"Infinity is not "getting larger", it is already fully formed."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actual_infinity
"An actual infinity is defined and complete, contrasted by a potential infinity."
You do know the only thing you could be referring to is how some completed sets of infinity are bigger than other sets? But they don't grow, they just are. I don't know where you are pulling this logic from, and I hope it isn't from "this is fiction".
Sure, decide by yourself that possibilities equate already existing timelines without literally any basis just because "statements" that again, have no context beyond calling possibilities infinite. Despite the quotes I've used also acknowledging infinite possibiilities. Literally don't read my extended comment where I posit why possibility doesn't equal world, why don't you? Rather, you are equating a computer calculating and storing data to it recreating entire timelines and keeping them permanently stored without any proof of this.
No, the actual question that literally all of you seem to evade with no confirmation in any statement is "does the mooncell simulate what it has recorded at all times?", deciding that is yes because you the mooncell can simulate things.
Again, if you wanna be this dishonest, don't even make a CRT and just make the changes, is much quicker.
"Infinity is not "getting larger", it is already fully formed."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actual_infinity
"An actual infinity is defined and complete, contrasted by a potential infinity."
You do know the only thing you could be referring to is how some completed sets of infinity are bigger than other sets? But they don't grow, they just are. I don't know where you are pulling this logic from, and I hope it isn't from "this is fiction".
Sure, decide by yourself that possibilities equate already existing timelines without literally any basis just because "statements" that again, have no context beyond calling possibilities infinite. Despite the quotes I've used also acknowledging infinite possibiilities. Literally don't read my extended comment where I posit why possibility doesn't equal world, why don't you? Rather, you are equating a computer calculating and storing data to it recreating entire timelines and keeping them permanently stored without any proof of this.
No, the actual question that literally all of you seem to evade with no confirmation in any statement is "does the mooncell simulate what it has recorded at all times?", deciding that is yes because you the mooncell can simulate things.
Again, if you wanna be this dishonest, don't even make a CRT and just make the changes, is much quicker.
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"Again, if you wanna be this dishonest, don't even make a CRT and just make the changes, is much quicker."
Statements such as this are not necessary and don't prove Paul is wrong or that his interpretation is faulty. The same can be applied to you: If you are that bothered by this CRT then don't participate in it.
The fact is that most, if not all of your points were addressed at some point in this thread, but you are ignoring them and spin the whole thread in circle. It is not needed. Address the answers to your points if you need more information, but this kind of debating you do does not produce results.
Statements such as this are not necessary and don't prove Paul is wrong or that his interpretation is faulty. The same can be applied to you: If you are that bothered by this CRT then don't participate in it.
The fact is that most, if not all of your points were addressed at some point in this thread, but you are ignoring them and spin the whole thread in circle. It is not needed. Address the answers to your points if you need more information, but this kind of debating you do does not produce results.
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I am not bothered, but I would hope if a CRT is even being made, the actual replies I made like the one above are actually read and answered in kind if the interpretation of the other side is different.
The fact is, accusing me of anything without proof also leads us nowhere. Address what I've actually said instead of just deciding it was answered.
But sure, I'll leave the CRT and not have to trouble you with my circular reasoning apparently.
The fact is, accusing me of anything without proof also leads us nowhere. Address what I've actually said instead of just deciding it was answered.
But sure, I'll leave the CRT and not have to trouble you with my circular reasoning apparently.
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Infinity + 1 is still infinity
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I have seen answers to your questions and I have personally answered some of them. They exist within this thread.
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And I have responded in kind, and the only conclusion you've reached is that you have nothing more to answer because I won't accept you are the one in the right.
I am also being told infinity + 1, which would already turn it into a potential infinity that is actually not infinite, it just grows without end. So yes, I'll take your advice and unsubscribe from this.
I am also being told infinity + 1, which would already turn it into a potential infinity that is actually not infinite, it just grows without end. So yes, I'll take your advice and unsubscribe from this.
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Since I've been messaged about this and other Nasuverse revisions, I'll make this clear on this thread:
I still support Regis' points on the verse from the Tier 2 upgrade thread way back when. I don't have the time or the knowledge to debate this into the ground as I will likely need to at this point, but as a result please don't bring me onto the higher-tier revisions in general, as I'll probably stagnate discussions with issues that were already discussed on other threads.
Apologies in advance, I know contacting admins for meaningful oversight can be a chore, but I can't really evaluate something I had issues with several threads prior.
I still support Regis' points on the verse from the Tier 2 upgrade thread way back when. I don't have the time or the knowledge to debate this into the ground as I will likely need to at this point, but as a result please don't bring me onto the higher-tier revisions in general, as I'll probably stagnate discussions with issues that were already discussed on other threads.
Apologies in advance, I know contacting admins for meaningful oversight can be a chore, but I can't really evaluate something I had issues with several threads prior.
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Is there any other administrators who follow Fate and don't have problems with the current state of the verse as a whole?
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Afaik most of the knowledgeable members who are staff are now inactive or lack knowledge about CCC
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I think Monarch was the last staff member knowledgeable enough on Fate who actively participated in revision threads, but it seems he lost his interest, and there is no point in forcing someone to do this. Reppuzan retired and Promestein doesn't want anything to do with Fate, from what I've seen.
Best we can do is make another thread that will have a very detailed and easy to understand summary, with all the scans. It should also include counter-arguments. I think that way staff members who are not familiar with the verse and its mechanics will be able to properly evaluate the proposal.
I can make that thread if no one else is willing, but it will take a day or two, maybe slightly more, depending on my obligations. My only problem is that my knowledge here is entirely focused on Extra and I didn't invest much time in Extella, but this is a combination of both, therefore I would copy things concerning Extella from this thread and people who know a lot about it can correct me or add if we've missed something.
Best we can do is make another thread that will have a very detailed and easy to understand summary, with all the scans. It should also include counter-arguments. I think that way staff members who are not familiar with the verse and its mechanics will be able to properly evaluate the proposal.
I can make that thread if no one else is willing, but it will take a day or two, maybe slightly more, depending on my obligations. My only problem is that my knowledge here is entirely focused on Extra and I didn't invest much time in Extella, but this is a combination of both, therefore I would copy things concerning Extella from this thread and people who know a lot about it can correct me or add if we've missed something.
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If no other admin is here to help, I'm fine with evaluating the content here under the assumption that the stuff it's based on is correct, even if I believe it not to be.
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A new thread for the cosmological part was created: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3357247. We should still evaluate abilities proposed here, since it doesn't require much time and isn't as complicated.
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Not yet. This thread is also a revision thread for Extella abilities, so we still have unfinished business here.
The Mooncell chaos however, will be continued there.
The Mooncell chaos however, will be continued there.
John985
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More like we only focus on the tier upgrade here, not the other abilities that was propose by OP.
Ignoring the tier upgrade and the higher plane stuff. I agree to what he propose. I think on Tamamo, she can only resurect if she have a blank saint graph, she did it too in one of the interlude on FGO. She use a blank saint graph to summon a shadow servant.
Edit: she have resurection already on her last key, but it should on her base key.
Ignoring the tier upgrade and the higher plane stuff. I agree to what he propose. I think on Tamamo, she can only resurect if she have a blank saint graph, she did it too in one of the interlude on FGO. She use a blank saint graph to summon a shadow servant.
Edit: she have resurection already on her last key, but it should on her base key.
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Regalia: Statistic Amplification (yes), Mind and Soul manipulation (probably ok), Clairvoyance (I would like more context on this), Creation (limited usage it seems), Barrier Creation (yes), Wish granting (don't know which power this would be), Power Bestowal (yes), Power Modification (not sure), Memory Manipulation (not sure), Moon Cell powers (disagree due to vague statement)
Altera: Spatial manipulation seems likely, and she already has that on her profile, so I'll go with that. Conceptual Manipulation (seems like it's referencing Spatial Manipulation), Creation (yes), Healing (would like more context), Size Manipulation (yes), Life Manipulation (seems likely, but more context would be nice), Shapeshifting (yes), Multiple Personalities (sure)
Nero: Resistance to Spatial Manipulation at best, if she tanks Altera's attacks outside of gameplay. Power Nullification and Spatial Manipulation are both vague for me.
Tamamo: Luck is ok. Power Bestowal (unsure) and Resurrection is fine. Resistance to Spatial Manipulation if she tanks Altera's attacks.
Archimedes: Resistance to Spatial Manipulation if he tanks Altera's attacks. Hacking is fine. Attack Reflection is fine. Sleep Manipulation (unsure). Unsure under which power his timeline jumping falls.
Elizabeth: Unsure about the new key, abilities are fine, statement on Zero Dark is vague.
Iskandar: Resistance is the same story as with others. I am unsure how that summoning works, as well as statistic amplification.
Gilles: Everything seems fine.
Astolfo: Unsure.
Jeanne: Same as others.
Gilgamesh already has those two.
Altera: Spatial manipulation seems likely, and she already has that on her profile, so I'll go with that. Conceptual Manipulation (seems like it's referencing Spatial Manipulation), Creation (yes), Healing (would like more context), Size Manipulation (yes), Life Manipulation (seems likely, but more context would be nice), Shapeshifting (yes), Multiple Personalities (sure)
Nero: Resistance to Spatial Manipulation at best, if she tanks Altera's attacks outside of gameplay. Power Nullification and Spatial Manipulation are both vague for me.
Tamamo: Luck is ok. Power Bestowal (unsure) and Resurrection is fine. Resistance to Spatial Manipulation if she tanks Altera's attacks.
Archimedes: Resistance to Spatial Manipulation if he tanks Altera's attacks. Hacking is fine. Attack Reflection is fine. Sleep Manipulation (unsure). Unsure under which power his timeline jumping falls.
Elizabeth: Unsure about the new key, abilities are fine, statement on Zero Dark is vague.
Iskandar: Resistance is the same story as with others. I am unsure how that summoning works, as well as statistic amplification.
Gilles: Everything seems fine.
Astolfo: Unsure.
Jeanne: Same as others.
Gilgamesh already has those two.
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I'll review this in more detail in a bit.
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Why are you guys even bothering with these upgrades because as we know that their main abilities are the ones portrayed by their authors and what happens in other timelines doesn't automatically become something that they take to the throne of heroes. I mean C.C.C and Extra were perhaps written before Strange Fake but you don't see some recurring characters having abilities that were add-ons in other timeline carried over with them in a new timeline. And also all the endings in Extra world that happened in the Mooncell are Observations/Possibilities that we're Observed by it.
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wutOzy the God-King said:
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Ok so, to begin with:
Higher Plane
"Higher plane" stuff is vague and unquantifiable.
Regalia stuff:
I'll get to the rest later.
Higher Plane
"Higher plane" stuff is vague and unquantifiable.
Regalia stuff:
- Statistic Amplification - fine
- Mind and Soul manipulation - I would like more detail on the context of this feat.
- Clairvoyance - seems fine at first glance but I'll wait for more context.
- Creation - yes but apparently it costs a lot to use
- Barrier Creation - fine
- Wish granting - I believe other Grails have reality warping listed, but this could just be an aspect of the "complete control over the moon cell" thing.
- Power Bestowal - fine
- Power Modification - I would like more detail on the context of this feat and what "redefining the master servant relationship" actually does.
- Memory Manipulation - I don't have time to watch a 26 minute video, give me a time stamp.
- Moon Cell powers - need more information on this.
- Spatial manipulation / EE - seems more like spatial manip based on previous feats.
- Conceptual Manipulation - eh, Conceptual Weapons are definitely a thing in Nasuverse, but it seems the actual effect is just its hax cutting everything even space.
- Creation - fine
- Healing - need more context
- Size Manipulation - fine
- Life Manipulation - She seems to have it but I'd like more information on how it is used.
- Shapeshifting - fine
- Multiple Personalities - fine but if it isn't directly shown to give her anything I wouldn't assume it's anything more.
- Resistance to Spatial Hax - I didn't see her actually get hit by any of Altera's attacks in that video outside of the gameplay itself, so I'm going to have to say no until that's shown.
- Power Nullification - going to need more context.
- Spatial Manipulation - going to need more context.
- Probability Manipulation - Yes but I'd like more information on how she can actually use this ability.
- Power Bestowal - No, this is just the function of the mirror providing endless magical energy to others.
- Resurrection - seems fine.
- Resistance to Spatial Manipulation - like Nero, if it only happened in gameplay, that's not enough.
- Resistance to Spatial Manipulation - like Nero, if it only happened in gameplay, that's not enough.
- I wasn't under the impression that Archimedes could just make these time-locks happen whenever he wanted.
- Hacking - fine
- Sleep Manipulation - sure
- Attack Reflection / Forcefields - fine.
- Interdimensional travel seems fine. I don't believe this is all taking place inside the Moon Cell of a single timeline, it doesn't seem logical and there is evidence to the contrary.
I'll get to the rest later.
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