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Ben 10 - Low 1-C Time Stream Proposal

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Antvasima said:
Hmm. Can all staff members here with evaluation rights discuss the issue to try to reach a conclusion/an agreement please?
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Ant, @Everything12 and @Maverick_Zero_X already accepts that bigger than 2A is low 1C as he said in his previous post here:
Everything12 said:
The Tier above 2-A is Tier 1-C. So to be a higher Tier than 2-A is Low 1-C. Like being bigger than countable infinity is uncountable infinity.

But the countable infinite natural numbers is included within the intergers which some would assume to be bigger than them, yet they are also just countably infinite. So you can seem to be bigger than baseline 2-A infinity but you aren't actually any bigger.
Click to expand...

I don't really understand their concern anymore, it's said that universe is just thin glow or star compared to space beyond and has been visually supported here

If possible can you ask them what's the problem that he cannot accept space beyond bigger than universe while everyone here can?
 
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Reiner said:
Ant, @Everything12 and @Maverick_Zero_X already accepts that bigger than 2A is low 1C as he said in his previous post here:


I don't really understand their concern anymore, it's said that universe is just faint glow or star compared to space beyond and has been visually supported here

If possible can you ask them what's the problem that he cannot accept space beyond bigger than universe while everyone here can?
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@Everything12 @Maverick_Zero_X

What do you think about this?
 
Antvasima said:
@Everything12 @Maverick_Zero_X

What do you think about this?
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Ant should there be a grace period upto which both of them should reply and say their concern? @Maverick_Zero_X has left my crt after disagreeing and I have reminded her many times by now to visit my crt and tell me her current concerns but she didn't do anything, and I am concerned that my crt will be stonewalled after being approved by everyone here including 2 admins, one thread mod and one content mod and knowledgeable members in tier 1 like @Pain_to12 has agreed with using visual as it is supported by statements. I think there should be a grace period by now
 
Reiner said:
Ant should there be a grace period upto which both of them should reply and say their concern? @Maverick_Zero_X has left my crt after disagreeing and I have reminded her many times by now to visit my crt and tell me her current concerns but she didn't do anything, and I am concerned that my crt will be stonewalled after being approved by everyone here including 2 admins, one thread mod and one content mod and knowledgeable members in tier 1 like @Pain_to12 has agreed with using visual as it is supported by statements. I think there should be a grace period by now
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@Everything12 @Maverick_Zero_X

We would still greatly appreciate some input here.
 
omegabronic said:
so, what to do now? 2 admins disagree, we can't pass without hearing them? idk what are the rules regarding these types of situations
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Reverse, 2 admins + 1 thread moderator+ 1 content mod agreed and all the members here as well but 2 thread mod disagreement hanging the crt and they haven't given any reason till now.
 
If somebody writes a properly structured good explanation post for all of the relevant arguments here in a manner that is easy to understand, I can try to help evaluate them and/or send a notification to other staff members in order to help break the deadlock.
 
Antvasima said:
If somebody writes a properly structured good explanation post for all of the relevant arguments here in a manner that is easy to understand, I can try to help evaluate them and/or send a notification to other staff members in order to help break the deadlock.
Click to expand...

The argument is that space beyond is bigger than the universe that is a 2A structure to the point it dwarfs them to just being a small ant or star in the universe as stated by Gwen further more paradox calling it thin glow confirms it further and space beyond is not just bigger than that faint glow but contains infinite numbers of them. Ultima has confirmed it on multiple occasions that being bigger than 2A while still remaining 2A is impossible thing, infinite numbers of 2A = one 2A. So being bigger than 2A by default means you are of aleph1 size that is 2nd largest infinity or uncountable infinite which is stated in our FAQ to be tier 1.
Screenshot_2023_0104_133335.png

Screenshot_2023_0104_133403.png

Low 1-C sounds fine if all of the qualifying factors are met, which they seem to be in this case. As said before, there is no such thing as being larger than a 2-A structure while still remaining 2-A yourself (Unless the verse establishes that this is possible somehow), so Chronos perceiving infinite timelines as so tiny she cannot perceive them fits that bill. ~ Stated by @Ultima_Reality in This thread.
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Ultima says it's more of if we allows the visual in this particular condition to imply space beyond is bigger than the universe because if that so, then it is low 1C which everyone here agrees as it is supported by statements of it being called star and faint glow.
 
Reiner said:
The argument is that space beyond is bigger than the universe that is a 2A structure to the point it dwarfs them to just being a small ant or star in the universe as stated by Gwen further more paradox calling it thin glow confirms it further and space beyond is not just bigger than that faint glow but contains infinite numbers of them. Ultima has confirmed it on multiple occasions that being bigger than 2A while still remaining 2A is impossible thing, infinite numbers of 2A = one 2A. So being bigger than 2A by default means you are of aleph1 size that is 2nd largest infinity or uncountable infinite which is stated in our FAQ to be tier 1.
Screenshot_2023_0104_133335.png

Screenshot_2023_0104_133403.png




Ultima says it's more of if we allows the visual in this particular condition to imply space beyond is bigger than the universe because if that so, then it is low 1C which everyone here agrees as it is supported by statements of it being called star and faint glow.
Click to expand...

Okay. I am personally uncertain.

Can you remind me which staff members that have accepted or rejected this, please?
 
Reiner said:
The argument is that space beyond is bigger than the universe that is a 2A structure to the point it dwarfs them to just being a small ant or star in the universe as stated by Gwen further more paradox calling it thin glow confirms it further and space beyond is not just bigger than that faint glow but contains infinite numbers of them. Ultima has confirmed it on multiple occasions that being bigger than 2A while still remaining 2A is impossible thing, infinite numbers of 2A = one 2A. So being bigger than 2A by default means you are of aleph1 size that is 2nd largest infinity or uncountable infinite which is stated in our FAQ to be tier 1.
Screenshot_2023_0104_133335.png

Screenshot_2023_0104_133403.png




Ultima says it's more of if we allows the visual in this particular condition to imply space beyond is bigger than the universe because if that so, then it is low 1C which everyone here agrees as it is supported by statements of it being called star and faint glow.
Click to expand...

@Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @SomebodyData @Celestial_Pegasus @SamanPatou @Abstractions

What do you think about this?
 
Yeah I have to disagree with this.

The FAQ is talking about qualitative superiority, something we don't see in the show. The Space Beyond is simply just that, a space beyond the material multiverses. That is traditionally just range. Similar to how moving further and further away from an object makes it look smaller and smaller, seeing universes as dots is just side effect of being physically far away from them.

What Ultima was talking about in the FAQ was significance. If a space is so qualitatively superior that it does not see a dimensional construct as anything more than a line or a dot then we consider that space higher dimensional. The Space Beyond just does not demonstrate this. To add insult to injury, Ben's ship can physically move in The Space Beyond and even get closer and eventually reach the Forge of Creation. If it was indeed this infinitely larger space then there should have been no way that Ben's ship could reach any dimensional construct within it.
 
I think there's also a weird belief that 2A structures can't contain other 2A structures. It wouldn't scale higher into 2A, but it's still possible without immediately jumping into tier 1. Like the set of natural numbers containing the set of odd numbers and the set of even numbers, yet being the same size. Similar thing could apply.

That being said, I'll refrain from giving an actual stance, and keep neutral
 
@Sir_Ovens

Aside from The Space Beyond, we have The Time Stream.

On the Time Stream's level of existence, The Space Beyond's level of existence is infinitesimal in comparison.

Would it be agreeable that the Time Stream's level of existence is qualitatively superior?
 
Sir_Ovens said:
Yeah I have to disagree with this.

The FAQ is talking about qualitative superiority, something we don't see in the show. The Space Beyond is simply just that, a space beyond the material multiverses. That is traditionally just range. Similar to how moving further and further away from an object makes it look smaller and smaller, seeing universes as dots is just side effect of being physically far away from them
Click to expand...

Being far away from the universe doesn't really mean anything here as brought up before and I said same thing. Regardless if something is far far away but it won't look smaller to Dot or small star while still being of same size as of the space they're contained in, it'll eventually left obv-that if the latter is bigger.
Tarang123 said:
Like the set of natural numbers containing the set of odd numbers and the set of even numbers, yet being the same size. Similar thing could apply.
Click to expand...

Written in the FAQ that containing smth is not being bigger than that thing and, 2A is countable infinite, to be bigger than this, there is just one thing that is possible, uncountable infinite. Nothing else, which as per our FAQ is low 1C.
 
Reiner said:
Written in the FAQ that containing smth is not being bigger than that thing and, 2A is countable infinite, to be bigger than this, there is just one thing that is possible, uncountable infinite. Nothing else, which as per our FAQ is low 1C.
Click to expand...
It's not actually bigger, just containing it. Like I said with my maths analogy, the set of all natural numbers contains both the set of all even and all odd numbers, yet they're all the same size. Same thing here
 
Tarang123 said:
It's not actually bigger, just containing it. Like I said with my maths analogy, the set of all natural numbers contains both the set of all even and all odd numbers, yet they're all the same size. Same thing here
Click to expand...
And if we consider space beyond to be natural numbers and universe in it even number and both are of same size, and move far away then it will reduced too small that it'll look like a star/thin glow in comparison to space beyond and will be covered by it from all around is what you're saying? Is it even possible to see a object smaller to Dot while not even moving away the distance greater than its own size while covering it's entire volume as nothing?
 
Reiner said:
And if we consider space beyond to be natural numbers and universe in it even number and both are of same size, and move far away then it will reduced too small that it'll look like a star/thin glow in comparison to space beyond and will be covered by it from all around is what you're saying? Is it even possible to see a object smaller to Dot while not even moving away the distance greater than its own size while covering it's entire volume as nothing?
Click to expand...
I'm not necessarily disagreeing, I'm just saying that the notion that a 2A thing can't be contained is, in my opinion, incorrect. It just wouldn't get you any higher into 2A. I'm still neutral, but leaning towards agreeing
 
Tarang123 said:
I'm not necessarily disagreeing, I'm just saying that the notion that a 2A thing can't be contained is, in my opinion, incorrect. It just wouldn't get you any higher into 2A. I'm still neutral, but leaning towards agreeing
Click to expand...
A 2A structure can be contained in another 2A, it was infact always in Ben 10, infinite dimensions contained in universe, infinite universes contained in timestream. Why this thread exist is because there is a evidence that space beyond doesn't just contain the universe but is actually bigger, or I haven't bothered myself with it and has cleared it in my previous thread when brought up that Ben 10 should be low 1C that it is still not just because it contains many 2A.
The point is, space beyond contains universes just like universe contains stars in it.
 
Sir_Ovens said:
Yeah I have to disagree with this.

The FAQ is talking about qualitative superiority, something we don't see in the show. The Space Beyond is simply just that, a space beyond the material multiverses. That is traditionally just range. Similar to how moving further and further away from an object makes it look smaller and smaller, seeing universes as dots is just side effect of being physically far away from them.

What Ultima was talking about in the FAQ was significance. If a space is so qualitatively superior that it does not see a dimensional construct as anything more than a line or a dot then we consider that space higher dimensional. The Space Beyond just does not demonstrate this. To add insult to injury, Ben's ship can physically move in The Space Beyond and even get closer and eventually reach the Forge of Creation. If it was indeed this infinitely larger space then there should have been no way that Ben's ship could reach any dimensional construct within it.
Click to expand...
Do you still disagree? I've noted down the disagreement but if you can tell me your thoughts once again if they're still same for the last time. I won't bother further than this.
 
LuciferX said:
Why not accepting this if majority agree with it?
Click to expand...
Because majority doesn't matter, it's a work of staff members to look out if the thread is faulty or not and that's what is everyone doing. Reviewing a crt from neutral perspective w/o being influenced by majority or minority is a staff member work. Majority can be as much wrong as much as minority.
 
Sir_Ovens said:
What Ultima was talking about in the FAQ was significance. If a space is so qualitatively superior that it does not see a dimensional construct as anything more than a line or a dot then we consider that space higher dimensional. The Space Beyond just does not demonstrate this. To add insult to injury, Ben's ship can physically move in The Space Beyond and even get closer and eventually reach the Forge of Creation. If it was indeed this infinitely larger space then there should have been no way that Ben's ship could reach any dimensional construct within it.
Click to expand...

And as for what Ultima said in the thread I linked above and what he said on discord is just cemented my view on what Qualifies for low 1C, Ultima himself is neutral towards the crt and left it to if we allow visuals to depict anything, we are in the same server you can read and ask ultima if being bigger than 2A such that we dwarfs the entire structure to insignificant scale is low 1C or not and trio didn't reached any infinite construct or anything but just reached the Chronorandomisation barrier as forge of creation doesn't exist in the black space in first place, it is out of sync with all time which is sealed by barrier and is entirely unreachable as paradox said unless you have Map of infinity Or you are he himself , so how they reached forge of creation is already stated.
 
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Sir_Ovens said:
Yeah I have to disagree with this.

The FAQ is talking about qualitative superiority, something we don't see in the show. The Space Beyond is simply just that, a space beyond the material multiverses. That is traditionally just range. Similar to how moving further and further away from an object makes it look smaller and smaller, seeing universes as dots is just side effect of being physically far away from them.

What Ultima was talking about in the FAQ was significance. If a space is so qualitatively superior that it does not see a dimensional construct as anything more than a line or a dot then we consider that space higher dimensional. The Space Beyond just does not demonstrate this. To add insult to injury, Ben's ship can physically move in The Space Beyond and even get closer and eventually reach the Forge of Creation. If it was indeed this infinitely larger space then there should have been no way that Ben's ship could reach any dimensional construct within it.
Click to expand...
I thinks this a strong and reasonable point, but shouldn't this be a unique situation of moving away from the observable universe and starting to see it farther and thus smaller? Because no model of parallel universes in Tier Low 2-C would have that effect, in this case the space beyond is seeing a 2-A structure as finite, which should qualify as a higher plane and therefore Low 1-C. I don't see how moving away from an infinite universe, let alone a 2-A structure would make it look finite in the same way as moving farther from an actual observable and finite universe.
 
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As usual, evaluating tier 1 CRTs feels like trying to read a scientific manuscript in a language where you barely know how to say "Good Morning". But I think I understand the issue here.

The universe in the Ben 10 cosmology is 2-A, as established from previous discussions. I've never been involved with these discussions, but I'm willing to assume this premise is correct and doesn't need to be debated here.

The Space Beyond is a structure that contains all of the universes (which are all 2-A?), of which there are infinite universes. Professor Paradox can access the Space Beyond, but states that Maltruant will be "beyond his reach" if he escapes the Timestream; ergo, the Space Beyond is within the Timestream. I don't know enough about the series to verify all this, or the stipulations that come with it (i.e.: Can Professor Paradox can access all of the Space Beyond? Are all universes 2-A? Are there provably infinite clusters of universes?), but assuming the information given is enough, this premise is reasonable.

In comparison to the whole Time Stream that Ben and Maltruant Fly through, the Space Beyond is infinitesimal. Can I get more context on this? Watching the clips provided, I don't see where this is confirmed. I don't see the Space Beyond that they travel through even referenced in the clip where they travel through the Time Stream; I suspect there's just some context not given from this clips that explains this away, but I need to understand this in more depth before I can agree with it.

Therefore, the Space Beyond is a Low 1-C structure because it contains infinite 2-A structures. This is where my brain turns itself inside out, as usual for tier 1 threads, but I think this does follow our standards. The Space Beyond contains infinite 2-A structures, and therefore those 2-A structures are infinitesimal portions of itself; this seems to fulfil the requirement for "encompassing them in an infinitesimal portion of itself" that's required for transcendence, and therefore Low 1-C in this circumstance. I would like to ask that someone highly knowledgeable in tier 1 standards verify this fact, however.

To summarise, then; I have lingering doubts about where the Time Stream falls into all of this, as I don't think enough context has been given to understand what its role is here as an outside observer. However, the information given about the Space Beyond (assuming all premises are correct and not contradicted within the show) does appear to fit our standards for Low 1-C. As such, I can consider myself a supporter of this change, though I would like all lingering questions to be answered before this thread is concluded. Most notably, whether all universes in all clusters can be considered 2-A structures, whether there is provably infinite universes, and the size of the Space Beyond relative to the Time Stream.
 
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