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Ben 10 - Low 1-C Time Stream Proposal

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Alonik said:
No, microcosm means that something is infinitely small compared with the all encompassing thing they are relatively small to.
Click to expand...
A Universe can be a micrcosmo in relationship to something greater.

All I'm saying is context matters to terminology like this lol.
 
Everything12 said:
Not being bigger than countable infinite, but being a cardinality above countable infinity. Which is a bit of a different thing and is uncountable infinity.
Click to expand...
Can you tell me what did you mean here?

Not bigger than countable infinite but being bigger than cardinality of countable infinite.

How is that different?
 
Antvasima said:
So which staff members have currently helped out in this thread?
Click to expand...
Ant can you call knowledgeable members of Tier 1 to check if the what ultima has said fits for the premise of the upgrade? Because I think ultima and DT aren't going to come soon but thread seriously needs tier 1 knowledgeable members.
Screenshot_2023_0112_125113.png
 
This thread is still going on?
Anyway, what he means is that containing 2-A structures does not mean larger than it, in the sense of low 1-C.
For it to be considered larger than it in the sense of low 1-C while containing it, the size difference needs to be ontological.

Anyway whatever Ultima has said in the past holds no water over a current thread, so he needs to clarify himself by himself as I cannot speak for him.
 
Please be patient. If Ultima's input is valuable to this thread, it'd be hasty to conclude it before he has a say.

That being said, on principle, I don't approve of leaving the conclusion of a thread up to the activity/inactivity of a single member. Clarification from Ultima as to the specifics of the tier 1 standards and their applicability here would be greatly appreciated, but I believe any appropriately well-versed and trusted member should be capable of clarifying the same things.

EDIT: Judging by the Knowledgeable Members List (available here), it may be worthwhile to contact Elizhaa for this thread, as he is listed as a knowledgeable member for matters related to Low 1-C standards.
 
Reiner said:
Ant can you call knowledgeable members of Tier 1 to check if the what ultima has said fits for the premise of the upgrade? Because I think ultima and DT aren't going to come soon but thread seriously needs tier 1 knowledgeable members.
Screenshot_2023_0112_125113.png
Click to expand...
Pain_to12 said:
This thread is still going on?
Anyway, what he means is that containing 2-A structures does not mean larger than it, in the sense of low 1-C.
For it to be considered larger than it in the sense of low 1-C while containing it, the size difference needs to be ontological.

Anyway whatever Ultima has said in the past holds no water over a current thread, so he needs to clarify himself by himself as I cannot speak for him.
Click to expand...
DarkGrath said:
Please be patient. If Ultima's input is valuable to this thread, it'd be hasty to conclude it before he has a say.

That being said, on principle, I don't approve of leaving the conclusion of a thread up to the activity/inactivity of a single member. Clarification from Ultima as to the specifics of the tier 1 standards and their applicability here would be greatly appreciated, but I believe any appropriately well-versed and trusted member should be capable of clarifying the same things.

EDIT: Judging by the Knowledgeable Members List (available here), it may be worthwhile to contact Elizhaa for this thread, as he is listed as a knowledgeable member for matters related to Low 1-C standards.
Click to expand...
@Ultima_Reality @DontTalkDT @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @KingPin0422 @Everything12 @Planck69 @Agnaa

Your input would be appreciated regarding whether or not Low 1-C is warranted for this revision.

You can obviously ask questions for explanations and clarifications if you wish.
 
@Sir_Ovens @Pain_to12

The Time Stream is a cylindrical structure that contains the Space Beyond within its walls aka the fabric of existance.

In turn, the Space Beyond contains Tier 2 structures.

Would the Time Stream qualify as Low 1-C?

OPccuwc.png
 
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Firestorm808 said:
@Sir_Ovens @Pain_to12

The Time Stream is a cylindrical structure that contains the Space Beyond within its walls.

In turn, the Space Beyond contains Tier 2 structures.

Would the Time Stream qualify as Low 1-C?

OPccuwc.png
Click to expand...
I mean if the difference is shown to be ontological, then sure
but based on @ProfessorKukui4Life he said he is arguing the entire 2-A universe, so i guess it is best to wait for that
 
Pain_to12 said:
but based on @ProfessorKukui4Life he said he is arguing the entire 2-A universe,
Click to expand...
That doesn't need to be waited. We waited 4 months for zamasu promise already. Also that 2A is has been accepted by majority of staff and we don't know what he'll bring up. So it's better to proceed. Things can be changed and adjusted based off how time affects it. One person thinking that smth is wrong and smth is right doesn't mean much.
 
Firestorm808 said:
The size of the Tier 2 structure doesn't affect the reasoning of the Time Stream's Tiering.
Click to expand...
Yes, I already said as long as the size difference is ontological then the L1C is fine.
Reiner said:
That doesn't need to be waited. We waited 4 months for zamasu promise already. Also that 2A is has been accepted by majority of staff and we don't know what he'll bring up. So it's better to proceed. Things can be changed and adjusted based off how time affects it. One person thinking that smth is wrong and smth is right doesn't mean much.
Click to expand...
Well only one person thought the earth is round and not flat then, and he is right
 
Firestorm808 said:
In you opinion, does my reasoning meet the ontological standards with the flat fabric of existance holding the Space Beyond?
Click to expand...
your reasoning is that the Timestream contains the space-beyond walls which is the fabric of existence that holds tier 2 structures?
is this correct?
 
Pain_to12 said:
your reasoning is that the Timestream contains the space-beyond walls which is the fabric of existence that holds tier 2 structures?
is this correct?
Click to expand...
The wall of the Time Stream is the Fabric of Existance.

The Fabric of existence contains the Space Beyond.

The Space Beyond contains the Tier 2 Structure.
 
Firestorm808 said:
The wall of the Time Stream is the Fabric of Existance.

The Fabric of existence contains the Space Beyond.

The Space Beyond contains the Tier 2 Structure.
Click to expand...
Okay, then I do not think this is tier 1, cause nothing here indicates size been so large it is like an ontological difference. If it is possible for you to provide better explanations, please do
 
Ontology is just the philosophical branch which describes the "nature" of one's being, it's a massive part of Reality > Fiction but it isn't, at least entirely, of what Reality > Fiction is.

Reality > Fiction just denotes an ontological difference between specific objects, beings or structures in simple terms.
 
Pain_to12 said:
Okay, then I do not think this is tier 1, cause nothing here indicates size been so large it is like an ontological difference. If it is possible for you to provide better explanations, please do
Click to expand...
To clarify, aren't we supposed to use the term "Qualitative superiority"?

@Sir_Ovens

Doesn't the gaps between the Space Beyond and the Time Stream meet the FAQ requirements?

"Sometimes called being qualitatively greater, is a term colloquially used to mean that something is superior to an extend that it justifies being on a higher tier of infinity in terms of our Tiering System than the thing they are superior to."

"to exist above physical dimensions in relation to a 4-dimensional cosmology would be Low 1-C with no further context."

"qualitatively superior to the usual spacetime continuum would, for example, be Low Complex Multiverse level (Tier Low 1-C) at the level represented by the R^5."

"The most standard case is dimensionality, where a difference in the quality that is dimensionality, implies the necessary quantitative difference."

- Tiering FAQ

Tier 2 Structure = 4-D = Depicted as Dots in the Realm of The Space Beyond = Arguably Infinitely smaller than the Space Beyond

The Space Beyond = Possibly 5-D = Contains the Tier 2 Structure = Infinitely smaller than The Fabric of Existence

The Fabric of Existence = At least 5-D = Depicted as a 2-D plane in the Realm of the Time Stream

The Overall Time Stream = At least 5-D = Depicted as a 3-D structure in the Realm of the Time Stream = 2-3 levels of infinity above a 4-D structure by dimensionality
 
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Deceived3596 said:
Ontology is just the philosophical branch which describes the "nature" of one being, it's a massive part of Reality > Fiction but it isn't, at least entirely, of what Reality > Fiction is.

Reality > Fiction just denotes an ontological difference between specific objects, beings or structures basically.
Click to expand...
Yeah but the point is that Ultima is referring to set theory where one infinity containing other doesn't make it bigger just like natural numbers containing even numbers and odd numbers, it has to be just real size difference, either physical, mathematical.

there is no such thing as countable infinite times bigger than countable infinite. Only uncountable is the option.
 
Firestorm808 said:
To clarify, aren't we supposed to use the term "Qualitative superiority"?

@Sir_Ovens

Doesn't the gaps between the Space Beyond and the Time Stream meet the FAQ requirements?

"Sometimes called being qualitatively greater, is a term colloquially used to mean that something is superior to an extend that it justifies being on a higher tier of infinity in terms of our Tiering System than the thing they are superior to."

"to exist above physical dimensions in relation to a 4-dimensional cosmology would be Low 1-C with no further context."

"qualitatively superior to the usual spacetime continuum would, for example, be Low Complex Multiverse level (Tier Low 1-C) at the level represented by the R^5."

"The most standard case is dimensionality, where a difference in the quality that is dimensionality, implies the necessary quantitative difference."

- Tiering FAQ

Tier 2 Structure = 4-D = Depicted as Dots in the Realm of The Space Beyond = Arguably Infinitely smaller than the Space Beyond

The Space Beyond = Possibly 5-D = Contains the Tier 2 Structure = Infinitely smaller than The Fabric of Existence

The Fabric of Existence = At least 5-D = Depicted as a 2-D plane in the Realm of the Time Stream

The Overall Time Stream = At least 5-D = Depicted as a 3-D structure in the Realm of the Time Stream = 2-3 levels of infinity above a 4-D structure by dimensionality
Click to expand...
Yeah this should be fine.
 
I am uncertain as to the specific measurements or parameters being considered by all parties involved, however, it is my understanding that structures or entities that are larger in size than those classified as 2-A, would fall within the category of low 1-C.
 
I agree with "contain 2A structure not make it a low 1C structure"

But, in ben 10 context it show and stated the 2A structure (universe) is just a "star" or little glow compare to the space beyond. It will make the universe is just small portion of the space beyond existence
 
Firestorm808 said:
The Fabric of Existence = At least 5-D = Depicted as a 2-D plane in the Realm of the Time Stream

The Overall Time Stream = At least 5-D = Depicted as a 3-D structure in the Realm of the Time Stream = 2-3 levels of infinity above a 4-D structure by dimensionality
Click to expand...
If the fabric that is 5D structure is just 2D structure in the timestream, why the timestream still same dimensional structure as the fabric (still 5D)???

I mean the different is 2D compare to 3D, it literally higher dimension

Like this character
vsbattles.fandom.com

Xue Ying (River of Time)

Everything is unknown. This is also something the world has provided us living beings. It wants us to go out and discover, to go out and comprehend. This is a process of life. Dong Bo Xue Ying is the eponymous protagonist of the novel, Lord Xue Ying. A minor baron of the Flying Snow Territory...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
 
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Reiner said:
This doesn't stand for R>F right?. I feel like I am misunderstanding smth.
Click to expand...
Not exactly, but something of R>F also have ontological difference between them.
There are ways to get ontological differences other than R>F, if you can prove Qualitative Difference Superiority between two structures or characters, so what i am trying to say is that, ontological difference is an equivalent of R>F.
Firestorm808 said:
To clarify, aren't we supposed to use the term "Qualitative superiority"?
Click to expand...
Yes, both means the same thing
Firestorm808 said:
@Sir_Ovens

Doesn't the gaps between the Space Beyond and the Time Stream meet the FAQ requirements?

"Sometimes called being qualitatively greater, is a term colloquially used to mean that something is superior to an extend that it justifies being on a higher tier of infinity in terms of our Tiering System than the thing they are superior to."

"to exist above physical dimensions in relation to a 4-dimensional cosmology would be Low 1-C with no further context."

"qualitatively superior to the usual spacetime continuum would, for example, be Low Complex Multiverse level (Tier Low 1-C) at the level represented by the R^5."

"The most standard case is dimensionality, where a difference in the quality that is dimensionality, implies the necessary quantitative difference."

- Tiering FAQ

Tier 2 Structure = 4-D = Depicted as Dots in the Realm of The Space Beyond = Arguably Infinitely smaller than the Space Beyond

The Space Beyond = Possibly 5-D = Contains the Tier 2 Structure = Infinitely smaller than The Fabric of Existence

The Fabric of Existence = At least 5-D = Depicted as a 2-D plane in the Realm of the Time Stream

The Overall Time Stream = At least 5-D = Depicted as a 3-D structure in the Realm of the Time Stream = 2-3 levels of infinity above a 4-D structure by dimensionality
Click to expand...
That said if this is how this structures are depicted in the series, I agree.
And I think it will be better to create a thread structured this way, as this is not what the OP is depicted it, so it can be remade with these points each with its own scans and evidences, as this thread as spiralled out.
 
Pain_to12 said:
This thread is still going on?
Anyway, what he means is that containing 2-A structures does not mean larger than it, in the sense of low 1-C.
For it to be considered larger than it in the sense of low 1-C while containing it, the size difference needs to be ontological.
Click to expand...
This is wrong, for reference. The gaps in size between the levels of the Tiering System aren't inherently about "More real vs less real," so much as they're about there being an uncountably infinite difference in power (For a very informal definition of the term, of course) between Level X and Level Y, and we just so happen to equate ontological differences to that, as a lowball.

For a very extreme example showing why that needn't be the case, consider a space with uncountably infinite dimensions (Or with a cardinality larger than aleph-1, same difference): This space would obviously be Low 1-A or higher, and yet there is absolutely nothing that distinguishes it from ordinary 3-D space in terms of ontology (Because math doesn't deal with that). It's obviously not really any more "real" than the 3-D space is, just really, really, really, really, really big compared to it.

Anyway, this particularly bothersome thing left aside: I'll say I'm neutral with regards to whether or not "the space beyond" is Low 1-C. As I've expressed to some of the thread's participants off-site, I think this largely depends on whether we consider inherently finite visual representations (In this case, a universe being mistaken for a star when seen from the space beyond it) to mean anything when it comes to infinitely large objects and spaces. Although I will say that being finitely, or more generally, countably, larger than a 2-A space is not a thing, no, unless the verse makes clear that such a thing is possible, in which case we're obviously forced to roll with it. As a default, though, we don't do that.
 
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Ultima_Reality said:
This is wrong, for reference. The gaps in size between the levels of the Tiering System aren't inherently about "More real vs less real," so much as they're about there being an uncountably infinite difference in power (For a very informal definition of the term, of course) between Level X and Level Y, and we just so happen to equate ontological differences to that, as a lowball.

For a very extreme example showing why that needn't be the case, consider a space with uncountably infinite dimensions (Or with a cardinality larger than aleph-1, same difference): This space would obviously be Low 1-A or higher, and yet there is absolutely nothing that distinguishes it from ordinary 3-D space in terms of ontology. It's obviously not really any more "real" than the 3-D space is, just really, really, really, really, really big compared to it.

Anyway, this particularly bothersome thing left aside: I'll say I'm neutral with regards to whether or not "the space beyond" is Low 1-C. As I've expressed to some of the thread's participants off-site, I think this largely depends on whether we consider inherently finite visual representations (In this case, a universe being mistaken for a star when seen from the space beyond it) to mean anything when it comes to infinitely large objects and spaces. Although I will say that being finitely, or indeed even countably, larger than a 2-A space, is not a thing, no, unless the verse makes clear that such a thing is possible, in which case we're obviously forced to roll with it. As a default, though, we don't do that.
Click to expand...
Ayo, thanks for clearing it.
 
Pain_to12 said:
Not exactly, but something of R>F also have ontological difference between them.
There are ways to get ontological differences other than R>F, if you can prove Qualitative Difference Superiority between two structures or characters, so what i am trying to say is that, ontological difference is an equivalent of R>F.

Yes, both means the same thing

That said if this is how this structures are depicted in the series, I agree.
And I think it will be better to create a thread structured this way, as this is not what the OP is depicted it, so it can be remade with these points each with its own scans and evidences, as this thread as spiralled out.
Click to expand...
Agree with the OP entirely now? As we decided that visuals in this case is fine.
I kept screaming since start but no one was listening that bigger than 2A is Low 1C.
 
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I agree with Time Stream as 5D. Space beyond im neutral leaning to disagree.
If space beyond is possibly 5D it wouldn't make sense with time stream also being 5D.
Though this is with the least assumption due to how vaguely explained space beyond is as Ultima stated.
I think timestream being completely 5D while spacebeyond isn't will be more consistent and a better compromise unlike space beyond being possibly 5D which can be a discrepancy with Timestream since it us treated as a wall and could be possibly 6D which isn't exactly clear due to how space beyond is vague as it is.
 
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