Ben 10 Cosmology Downgrades & Other Things (Yes, this is happening again)

[Antvasima]

But the problem, as I reiterated above, is that the thread where you guys got the Action Pack comic with the 2-B statement considered canon, didn’t have all of this information taken into account before you got it accepted as canon.

The one single statement of Duncan saying it’s canon is what got it accepted.

And now, thanks to the information Shadow provided, that statement has multiple other contradicting statements against it. So the canonicity of the comics gets called into question now

Hmm. That is a problem. Which were the staff members who helped out with evaluating that thread?

 

[Antvasima]

Seems like the comics aren’t canon at all. Also another reason why we shouldn’t base massive statistics upgrades on Twitter replies.

But anyway I’m fine with the Prime Universe being 2-C.

Thank you for helping out.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Hmm. That is a problem. Which were the staff members who helped out with evaluating that thread?

Besides @Firestorm808

@Eficiente, @Dereck03, @LordGriffin1000 and @Elizhaa were also involved in that thread about the comics canonicity.

That thread also seemed to have been finished pretty fast too.

 

[Reiner04]

I'll prefer that thread to be reopened where this comic was concluded to be canon and ask them if their decision are changed, ppl should have to be present there and continue to give their input.

 

[Shadowbeast]

Imma adding another wife in my collection.

̶I̶m̶m̶a̶ ̶c̶a̶l̶l̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶p̶o̶l̶i̶c̶e̶ ̶d̶u̶d̶e̶.

 

[Antvasima]

I'm against possibly 2-A universes too becuz of the whole Holiday thing already discussed, and i find 2-B universes shaky since it's based on a single line from Ben in a comic. I saw the thread where we decided to make the Ben and Rex comic canon and also Duncan's words in Twitter about trying to find a connection between the series to make the comics canon (as well as his words about the Action Packs) but the wogs in Ben 10 are pretty contradictory since Dwayne McDuffie was also asked about the canonicity about the comics

So, even though the comic features an important Ben 10 staff, which in this case would be Eugene Son (which was one of the arguments used to approve the canonicity of this comic) Dwayne still denies that these stories are canonical to the Ben 10 show. Not only that but we also have Charlotte Fullerton (another Ben 10 staff member) saying that the Ben 10 comics aren't canon to the show even with them trying to connect events to try to make things work and make them canonical.

So my question is, why do we only take Duncan's word in that thread? Duncan contradicts himself many times like in his most recent answer about the comics where he was more direct and said that they tried to keep them canon but things didn't work out so he says he wouldn't consider the comics canon (and that includes the Ben and Rex crossover).

So, the Ben 10 wogs tend to contradict each other but in general the directors themselves don't consider the comics being canonical, i don't know if such a change would require another CRT or we can deal with it in this thread, but in my view the universes should be kept as 2-C since the 2-B would come from a comic that is clearly not canon (which would be Ben's line that there are millions of dimensions).

But the problem, as I reiterated above, is that the thread where you guys got the Action Pack comic with the 2-B statement considered canon, didn’t have all of this information taken into account before you got it accepted as canon.

The one single statement of Duncan saying it’s canon is what got it accepted.

And now, thanks to the information Shadow provided, that statement has multiple other contradicting statements against it. So the canonicity of the comics gets called into question now

Hmm. That is a problem. Which were the staff members who helped out with evaluating that thread?

Besides @Firestorm808

@Eficiente, @Dereck03, @LordGriffin1000 and @Elizhaa were also involved in that thread about the comics canonicity.

That thread also seemed to have been finished pretty fast too.

@Eficiente @Dereck03 @LordGriffin1000 @Elizhaa

Would you be willing to help out here please?

 

[Reiner04]

I mean the thread should be reopened, the point is WOG wasn't the only reason that thread got accepted for, there was no statement about comic that efi wasn't aware of. It was only asked for efi. That thread should be reopened and discussed throughly as this crt is already flooded and we can't discuss much here.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/ben-10-canonicity-of-comic-hero-two-times-discussion-thread.142450/

 

[Antvasima]

I do not think that we can have three conflicting Ben 10 revision threads open at the same time. It is bad enough with two of them.

 

[Reiner04]

I do not think that we can have three conflicting Ben 10 revision threads open at the same time. It is bad enough with two of them.

Okay then that's fine, this thread can simply be tagged along with all other counter replies in this page of the thread. That had be easy. The comic didn't just connect upto tv episodes but is written by one of prominent writer of the ben 10 and other things present that is present in thread should be taken into consideration while evaluating it.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Eficiente had already said all of those reasons were not enough to make the comic canon. The only sole reason he accepted it was because of Duncans statement saying they were canon.

That very statement is put into contradiction by multiple other ones

-His more recent statement saying they are overall not canon

-Dwayne’s statement saying they aren’t canon

-Charlotte saying they aren’t canon

Duncan giving 2 conflicting statements by himself is already bad enough, and even overlooking that issue, you still have the big issue of 2 authors going against what one says.

 

[Shadowbeast]

I mean the thread should be reopened, the point is WOG wasn't the only reason that thread got accepted for, there was no statement about comic that efi wasn't aware of. It was only asked for efi. That thread should be reopened and discussed throughly as this crt is already flooded and we can't discuss much here.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/ben-10-canonicity-of-comic-hero-two-times-discussion-thread.142450/

I covered your other arguments in my earlier lines where Dwayne literally says that even though the comics were written by key staff and good writers on the team (which would include Eugene Son, the prominent writer guy which was on your argument) he didn't consider them canon and this would be supported by the lines of other producers who also don't consider them being canon (and again, like Kukui said there is no excuse like "one is canon and the other as the Action Packs are not" they are very clear and claim that comics are not canon). And the comics referencing events of the series and connecting to it, i also already covered it, i don't think it's necessary to repeat the same words of saying that even the writers covering the events of the series to try to make them canonical, in the end it didn't work and the comics weren't canonical at all... also, i won't return to the Duncan thing again, you already know my answer

 

[Reiner04]

Eficiente had already said all of those reasons were not enough to make the comic canon. The only sole reason he accepted it was because of Duncans statement saying they were canon.

That very statement is put into contradiction by multiple other ones

-His more recent statement saying they are overall not canon

-Dwayne’s statement saying they aren’t canon

-Charlotte saying they aren’t canon

Duncan giving 2 conflicting statements by himself is already bad enough, and even overlooking that issue, you still have the big issue of 2 authors going against what one says.

He was aware of mc duffie statement, we still have profiles that goes against mc duffie statement, writers do not hold any value over deciding what is canon and what is not but right holders themselves.

2- he was also aware of duncan statement about "some has strayed out so comics are generally non canon" since my last thread over low 2C alien x.

He still have his answer that duncan directly saying this comic is canon is canon and seconded it in this thread.

Now everything is at place.

@LordGriffin1000 gave his answer as well that comic has connection with events of the tv episodes and is written by one of prominent writers which means it'll not include any misinformation and so leaning to agreeing towards canon.

 

[Shadowbeast]

Anyway, i think it would be better if the staff evaluate this situation right now or we are gonna get 10 pages of debates

 

[Antvasima]

Eficiente had already said all of those reasons were not enough to make the comic canon. The only sole reason he accepted it was because of Duncans statement saying they were canon.

That very statement is put into contradiction by multiple other ones

-His more recent statement saying they are overall not canon

-Dwayne’s statement saying they aren’t canon

-Charlotte saying they aren’t canon

Duncan giving 2 conflicting statements by himself is already bad enough, and even overlooking that issue, you still have the big issue of 2 authors going against what one says.

I am personally inclined to agree with this post.

 

[Reiner04]

I am personally inclined to agree with this post.

There is more to this story to make sense at all.

As per statement of mc duffie/charlotte (his wife) if taken seriously that only show is canon nothing else. That had mean all guide books, various merchandise, things aside from show we have taken as canon like vilgax attack, cosmic destruction game which has been used in several profiles. In literal sense nothing is canon but show. He has given a very destructive statement for the entire show and fandom it shouldn't be on mere single writer to decide something on this scale. We had be losing various kinds of statements from other sources aside from show. This statement doesn't even makes sense as we aren't even this strict for any fiction we scale. Every verse is allowed to use the secondary sources aside from show but we are saying that ben 10 is not because a single writer just gave a ridiculous statement which itself is kind of stupid, we should realize that not all statements of writers should be taken seriously. We are all are aware of mc duffie statement since the time we started scaling ben 10, no one takes it seriously, unless we just disregard all other sources but "only show". I am gonna be blatant, this statement existed since always but no one cared about despite knowing about it, It is being pointed out in the thread because universe being 2B/possibly 2A is kind of undeniable with literal 2 sources (one is show and other is comic) saying it.

 

[Shadowbeast]

As per statement of mc duffie/charlotte (his wife) if taken seriously that only show is canon nothing else. That had mean all guide books, various merchandise, things aside from show we have taken as canon like vilgax attack, cosmic destruction game which has been used in several profiles. In literal sense nothing is canon but show

I'm aware of that but no one said that here my friend, we are saying that the the comics should not be considered canon by the arguments presented previously, we didn't say "no Ben 10 media is canon becuz Dwayne have said it" i think you are misinterpreting things...
And Kukui have already adressed the 2-A problem which comes from Holiday statement and the 2-B which comes from a comic which shouldn't even be canon... but anyway, like i said it's better to let the staff decide at this point.

 

[Reiner04]

I'm aware of that but no one said that here my friend, we are saying that the the comics should not be considered canon by the arguments presented previously, we didn't say "no Ben 10 media is canon becuz Dwayne have said it" i think you are misinterpreting things...

We literally using MC duffie and charlotte statement which are basically nothing outside of show is canon. Use it properly or don't crop it down to fit for agenda ppl have here.

I am fine with this, but from now on, nothing aside from show will be taken. Waybig profile and other profiles will be rerevised as perc duffie statement, even alien x one. Nothing but show will be canon.

 

[Firestorm808]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the rule of thumb for Non-Primary Source material is that they can be used so long as it is supported by the primary source and doesn't contradict it.

 

[Reiner04]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the rule of thumb for Non-Primary Source material is that they can be used so long as it is supported by the primary source and doesn't contradict it.

It is but ppl here are saying that MC duffie ridiculous statement of nothing outside of show is canon should be taken seriously that will end benefit of other sources to oblivion.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Then any other series that uses contradictory sources like these should be called into question as well. Two wrongs don’t make a right, and to be blunt, I don’t know of any other series using evidence like this that goes against itself as in your face as this situation does.

 

[Shadowbeast]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the rule of thumb for Non-Primary Source material is that they can be used so long as it is supported by the primary source and doesn't contradict it.

We also have this

In this case, 3 of what would be the staff team have already declared that the comics are not canon, i think that's enough for we not considering them being canonical. Also not including the action packs in those statements is cherrypicking like Kukui said...

 

[Reiner04]

Then any other series that uses contradictory sources like these should be called into question as well. Two wrongs don’t make a right, and to be blunt, I don’t know of any other series using evidence like this that goes against itself as in your face as this situation does.

Which contradictory source? Are you talking about MC duffie statement of nothing outside of show is canon?

 

[Reiner04]

We also have this

In this case, 3 of what would be the staff team have already declared that the comics are not canon, not including the action packs in those statements is cherrypicking like Kukui said...

Yeah, just nothing outside of show is canon, say it directly. Why even bothering to mix up all the statements as if they all are saying samething? MC duffie said nothing outside of show is canon, charlotte when asked if comics are canon said that "#MC duffie, only show is canon". I am very surprised that why this statement never been used but now so suddenly even when everyone knew about this statements.

 

[Firestorm808]

I highly doubt that prohibiting all secondary and tertiary supplementary material for an entire verse because of 3 people out of a 19+ size Classic Series writing staff would be allowed.

 

[Shadowbeast]

Yeah, just nothing outside of show is canon, say it directly. Why even bothering to mix up all the statements as if they all are saying samething? MC duffie said nothing outside of show is canon, charlotte when asked if comics are canon said that "#MC duffie, only show is canon". I am very surprised that why this statement never been used but now so suddenly even when everyone knew about this statements.

I've already answered this in my previous line, I won't be repeating my same words again, so...

 

[Shadowbeast]

I highly doubt that prohibiting all secondary and tertiary supplementary material for an entire verse because of 3 people out of a 19+ size Classic Series writing staff would be allowed.

No one talked about banning/prohibiting everything, the subject was just the comics that have very explicit examples to not to be taken into account in terms of canonicity.

 

[Firestorm808]

comics that have very explicit examples to not to be taken into account in terms of canonicity.

What do you mean by this?

Again, from the original comic thread, only content that was supported by the primary source and doesn't contradict it was used and was even written by an episode writing staff.

 

[Reiner04]

No one talked about banning/prohibiting everything, the subject was just the comics that have very explicit examples to not to be taken into account in terms of canonicity.

Because 2 writers, one mc duffie and other his wife charlotte believes that nothing outside of show is canon. We are just going with the statement that has been brought up here. If these statements of this 2 writers are taken seriously than goodbye all secondary sources.

I don't even need to tell how ridiculous this statement is. "Only show is canon", they're not the one to decide the fate of entire verse over the personal belief of "canon definition".

 

[Forthegood]

I'm against possibly 2-A universes too becuz of the whole Holiday thing already discussed, and i find 2-B universes shaky since it's based on a single line from Ben in a comic. I saw the thread where we decided to make the Ben and Rex comic canon and also Duncan's words in Twitter about trying to find a connection between the series to make the comics canon (as well as his words about the Action Packs) but the wogs in Ben 10 are pretty contradictory since Dwayne McDuffie was also asked about the canonicity about the comics

As much as I hate too say this but Dwayne statement doesn't hold weight here especially for this comic(of what the comic is) and Crossover episode Reasons why? Easily

If you look at the date MD past away it was around 21 February 2011 and if you checked the date when the First crossover was released it was released on 25 November 2011 meaning that this statement of yours(which Reiner thread mainly focuses on, the “Action packs" and this statement was made before this) doesn't hold weight and is invalid old evidence too this CERTAIN TOPIC.

So, even though the comic features an important Ben 10 staff, which in this case would be Eugene Son (which was one of the arguments used to approve the canonicity of this comic)

Correct but wrong without Duncan statement this wouldn't be possible because Efficient only agreed via the WOG.

Dwayne still denies that these stories are canonical to the Ben 10 show. Not only that but we also have Charlotte Fullerton (another Ben 10 staff member) saying that the Ben 10 comics aren't canon to the show even with them trying to connect events to try to make things work and make them canonical.

Dwayne is irrelevant too this CERTAIN TOPIC as I proved above his statement doesn't hold weight too this certain topic(and the topic is the Action pack comics). Duncan holds more weight than the staffs this statements were actually retconned by Duncan statement to further prove this we must look at the dates of the statements when they were released Duncan statement is probably most recent I'll check if this is true.

Edit:
I was wrong here actually her statement was made 18 days after Duncan statement

So my question is, why do we only take Duncan's word in that thread? Duncan contradicts himself many times like in his most recent answer about the comics where he was more direct and said that they tried to keep them canon but things didn't work out so he says he wouldn't consider the comics canon (and that includes the Ben and Rex crossover).

You're once again arguing out of context Duncan statement is clear and cut as it is his statement MAINLY FOCUSES ON THE ACTION PACK NOT THE OTHER COMICS LIKE THE HALLOWEEN SPECIAL COMICS that was released. His statement could just mean that the other comics are not Canon where as his statement says that the ACTION PACKS ARE CANON.

So, the Ben 10 wogs tend to contradict each other but in general the directors themselves don't consider the comics being canonical, i don't know if such a change would require another CRT or we can deal with it in this thread, but in my view the universes should be kept as 2-C since the 2-B would come from a comic that is clearly not canon (which would be Ben's line that there are millions of dimensions).

Ben 10 only has 4/5 wog and they are who we call Man Of Action.

I'll edit this reply soon once I found the specific date for both of these statements.

 

[Forthegood]

Both statements were made on the same month and the same year the difference is the date of day

Duncan statement is made on the 1st of November and The staff member statement was made on the 19th

So who are we going too take as word between this two? The person who is part of MOA or the staff member who has also written some comics and Games?

 

[Reiner04]

MC duffie & charlotte made a statement that "nothing outside of show is canon" which is very destructive and is out of range of their jurisdiction. They cannot take a major decision such as this which affects the entire verse w/o having rights over entire ben 10, and this statement has been DISREGARDED by even our site as we already had accepted and do accept secondary information and accepts few games as canon. No stain on MC duffie but he can give statements for clarifying something about the stories he has written but this is too much for him to decide.

 

[Shadowbeast]

What do you mean by this?

Again, from the original comic thread, only content that was supported by the primary source and doesn't contradict it was used and was even written by an episode writing staff.

I know that according to Dwayne nothing outside the series is canonical but I'm not proposing something that absurd, i proposed that only the comic "Heroes Times Two" which is used to proof that 2-B universe in Ben 10 (and had a very quick canonical approval on Reiner's thread) be disregarded as canonical because the comics were themes that the directors spoke directly differently from other media like guidebooks for example, you didn't see, but they are aware of comics and still deny the canonicity of it even so. And Dwayne was aware of the comics being written by an episode writing staff and even then, he still denied that they were canon.
"The comics are really cool, featuring scripts from at least two other of the show's staff and pretty smokin'art, but those stories aren't canon"
I agree with Reiner that we shouldn't apply the full extent and deny all external canonicity to Ben 10 but the comics should be disregarded

 

[Reiner04]

I know that according to Dwayne nothing outside the series is canonical but I'm not proposing something that absurd, i proposed that only the comic "Heroes Times Two" which is used to proof that 2-B universe in Ben 10 (and had a very quick canonical approval on Reiner's thread) be disregarded as canonical because the comics were themes that the directors spoke directly differently from other media like guidebooks for example, you didn't see, but they are aware of comics and still deny the canonicity of it even so. And Dwayne was aware of the comics being written by an episode writing staff and even then, he still denied that they were canon.
"The comics are really cool, featuring scripts from at least two other of the show's staff and pretty smokin'art, but those stories aren't canon"

When their general belief is that "nothing outside of show is canon" then their statements about whatever being canon or non canon will be same, "#MCduffie's, if it's not in the show then it's not canon" is said by charlotte in response to if comics are canon. Regardless if we try to cherry pick or twist the statement one way or another, it'll not be changed that what they believe and what they have said.

 

[Reiner04]

Either we take the MC duffie and charlotte statement as it is or just disregard it as many other stupid statements of them. Cherry picking or twisting it is not gonna happen.

 

[Shadowbeast]

You're once again arguing out of context Duncan statement is clear and cut as it is his statement MAINLY FOCUSES ON THE ACTION PACK NOT THE OTHER COMICS LIKE THE HALLOWEEN SPECIAL COMICS that was released. His statement could just mean that the other comics are not Canon where as his statement says that the ACTION PACKS ARE CANON.

This again? Duncan's Action Packs statement was from 2019 and his most recent answer was from 2020, saying that he didn't included action packs in his most recent answer as non-canon is headcannon and cherrypicking, there isn't an excuse like "hey, this one is canon but this one isn't" in his most recent answer... read Kukui answer above, i think he explained this issue better.

 

[Reiner04]

Yet we have literally two statements of him stating mind you ON THE SAME DATE on 1st November 2019 that the comics are Canon and the Action packs are Canon(these were stated separately) and now his 2020 statement is contradicting both these two statements so how are you guys going too use that 1 statement too say that the comics are non Canon when we have two statements from the writer which says they are? This shows that the statements are clashing but we can't go with the one statement just because it suits YOUR narrative but ignore the two statements that were given on the same date of day, month and year. The only given evidence that is potentially making the evidence faulty is Charlotte statement which is clashing with Duncan statement and she's a staff not a member of MOA and her statement was given 18 days after Duncan statement.


But there is If you clearly look at the other comics. They do not state Action Pack they only give us the name of the franchise and who it was written by which shows there is a clear difference between the Action packs and the comics who do not state the Action pack statement.

First of all, it is not contradictory statement. The statement here has been argued and was already present in the main thread about Duncan saying that "comics are generally non canon and gave explanation to when they can be considered canon".

@LordGriffin1000 also pointed it out in the thread and said that comics are generally non canon as per author but if there is thermal link or exceptions present than its other wise, he never said that comics cannot be canon and so, his statement of action packs being canon remains as it is.

It was present in my previous thread, everyone saw it and still agreed, so point is entirely moot to even bring up again.
One can check previous crt.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/ben-10-canonicity-of-comic-hero-two-times-discussion-thread.142450/

 

[Forthegood]

First of all, it is not contradictory statement. The statement here has been argued and was already present in the main thread about Duncan saying that "comics are generally non canon and gave explanation to when they can be considered canon".

@LordGriffin1000 also pointed it out in the thread and said that comics are generally non canon as per author but if there is thermal link or exceptions present than its other wise, he never said that comics cannot be canon and so, his statement of action packs being canon remains as it is.

It was present in my previous thread, everyone saw it and still agreed so point is entirely moot to even bring up again.
One can check previous crt.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/ben-10-canonicity-of-comic-hero-two-times-discussion-thread.142450/

Was this statement made after the statement of the comics not being Canon?

This statement you posted then should be enough since the events in both crossover have some “internal core that binds them"

 

[Reiner04]

Was this statement made after the statement of the comics not being Canon?

That statement then should be enough since the events in both crossover have some “internal core that binds them"

It is, in the original thread of canonicity, literally everyone knew that authors consider comics generally non canon and infact I was the one who used this scan, so nothing new is brought up in this thread. @LordGriffin1000 pointed it out and said that it still wouldn't affect the canonicity of this comic, @Eficiente by that time has seen this statement by thrice and still agreed for action packs being canon and damn seconded it, as it doesn't contradict anything. "Some has strayed out", "some has connection (action packs)", we know how to find if something is canon or not.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Yet we have literally two statements of him stating mind you ON THE SAME DATE on 1st November 2019 that the comics are Canon and the Action packs are Canon(these were stated separately) and now his 2020 statement is contradicting both these two statements so how are you guys going too use that 1 statement too say that the comics are non Canon when we have two statements from the writer which says they are?

Because it doesn’t matter how many statements he made back then at the time if the most recent answer he made regarding their place in the canon is that they aren’t canon.

It’s not simply about prioritizing 1 answer from him above his other ones, it’s about how recent they are as well.

And at bare minimum, it shows the unreliability of the source with them contradicting themselves and other authors doing the same

You cannot selectively choose and ignore which statements to take from Duncan just because one or so conveniently helps an upgrade.

This shows that the statements are clashing but we can't go with the one statement just because it suits YOUR narrative but ignore the two statements that were given on the same date of day, month and year.

But we can take the most recent one that coincides with their most recent opinion, and taking most recent information over outdated answers is…painfully obvious.

So either you take the most recent opinion from them or throw the whole source out as evidence all together.

The only given evidence that is potentially making the evidence faulty is Charlotte statement which is clashing with Duncan statement and she's a staff not a member of MOA and her statement was given 18 days after Duncan statement.

This proves my point even further.

 

[Reiner04]

Because it doesn’t matter how many statements he made back then at the time if the most recent answer he made regarding their place in the canon is that they aren’t canon.

It’s not simply about prioritizing 1 answer from him above his other ones, it’s about how recent they are as well.

And at bare minimum, it shows the unreliability of the source with them contradicting themselves and other authors doing the same

You cannot selectively choose and ignore which statements to take from Duncan just because one or so conveniently helps an upgrade.


But we can take the most recent one that coincides with their most recent opinion, and taking most recent information over outdated answers is…painfully obvious.

So either you take the most recent opinion from them or throw the whole source out as evidence all together.



This proves my point even further.

Nothing of this is contradictory tho, all these things that has been brought up here were in the original thread. @LordGriffin1000 clarified it that even if authors do not consider comics being generally canon, they still do not deny it (there can be exceptions). Also that eficiente has seen this statement thrice by now and still agreed.
Read the original thread.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/ben-10-canonicity-of-comic-hero-two-times-discussion-thread.142450/