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Battle of the DBS' Buff Bois - Broly vs Toppo

DragonEmperor23 said:
"some random dumb ability"
It's transmutation, what's dumb about it?

"You mean just like he was going to hurt Moon busters + characters with the same trees, if his ability make you unable to defend yourself, it make you unable to defend yourself, you can't say one part works and not the other."

Yes, he could have killed Krillin and Gohan with them. Krillin and Gohan who are also in the same tier as Guldo. It's time stop not statistics reduction, time being stopped doesn't change the fact that they're universal and he's planetary. None of his attacks are going to do anything to them.
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Yeah, Beerus getting turned into a carrot by a fodder isn't ridiculous and dumb, that's totaly what the writers wanted to portray, same with Buu, Buu would have one shotted Beerus if he used his candy beam but he simply didn't, that's totaly what the show wanted us to know, all of this is absolutly not nonsense.

You have to decide on if Guldo's time hax work on way stronger being because it worked on them or if it worked on being around his own level, you just shot yourself in the foot.
 
It's ridiculous because MC wouldn't be able to touch Beerus in a fight, not because the transmutation won't work on him.

???? What does stopping time have to do with a 5-B being able to hurt a Universal character.

"Yes, he could have killed Krillin and Gohan with them. Krillin and Gohan who are also in the same tier as Guldo. It's time stop not statistics reduction, time being stopped doesn't change the fact that they're universal and he's planetary. None of his attacks are going to do anything to them."

Them = trees

I didn't say Guldo was going to kill Krillin and Gohan with timestop. He was going to do it with the trees during time stop.
 
DragonEmperor23 said:
It's ridiculous because MC wouldn't be able to touch Beerus in a fight, not because the transmutation won't work on him.
???? What does stopping time have to do with a 5-B being able to hurt a Universal character.

"Yes, he could have killed Krillin and Gohan with them. Krillin and Gohan who are also in the same tier as Guldo. It's time stop not statistics reduction, time being stopped doesn't change the fact that they're universal and he's planetary. None of his attacks are going to do anything to them."

Them = trees

I didn't say Guldo was going to kill Krillin and Gohan with timestop. He was going to do it with the trees during time stop.
Click to expand...
Yeah, Cause Beerus didn't keep touching every single one of his opponents when he was fighting them in BOG, he immediatly blitzed and one shotted...oh wait, that never happened.

If you actualy read what i said rather than bash your head against the wall to keep believing in your nonsense, you'd know.

And why would the trees kill them if they were massively above Guldo ? because the time stop doesn't allow them to defend themself, so the same would apply to the god tiers if anyone believed in your nonsense.
 
DragonEmperor23 said:
So you're saying Guldo's time stop won't work on Whis, but his trees would kill him?
Click to expand...
No, i'm saying that following what you are saying, Both the time stop would work and the trees would kill Whis, which is clearly nonsense and goes what against the show says and show.

Therefor your argument and logic aren't valid.
 
Ok so if for some reason we say that dragonball characters don't overpower hax through sheer strength even though it has been shown and proven multiple times

This would mean that for some reason only frieza Goku and vegeta get to resist EE with no rhyme or reason but gods of destruction angels and any other high tier would die to hakai because they haven't shown to be resistant to existence erasure even though they are stronger and would lolnope the hakai just by existing
 
"No, i'm saying that following what you are saying, Both the time stop would work and the trees would kill Whis, which is clearly nonsense and goes what against the show says and show."

I don't know where you got that from.

" And? Guldo is 5-B, he's not going to be hurting any god tiers with his trees any time soon."

"Yes, he could have killed Krillin and Gohan with them. Krillin and Gohan who are also in the same tier as Guldo. It's time stop not statistics reduction, time being stopped doesn't change the fact that they're universal and he's planetary. None of his attacks are going to do anything to them."

I think you might be misunderstanding something here.

" You mean just like he was going to hurt Moon busters + characters with the same trees, if his ability make you unable to defend yourself, it make you unable to defend yourself, you can't say one part works and not the other. "

Time Stop does not negate someone's durability. When time is stopped and someone doesn't have resistance, then that character would be unable to move or think or attack. That is the only difference though. The character would not lose their durability and any attacks that would normally do nothing to them would still do nothing to them. So Guldo would stop time, throw trees at Whis, and then those trees would break.
 
And the Angels and Zeno couldn't have made a vastly more powerful ki barrier than SSJ Trunks?
 
DragonEmperor23 said:
"No, i'm saying that following what you are saying, Both the time stop would work and the trees would kill Whis, which is clearly nonsense and goes what against the show says and show."
I don't know where you got that from.

" And? Guldo is 5-B, he's not going to be hurting any god tiers with his trees any time soon."

"Yes, he could have killed Krillin and Gohan with them. Krillin and Gohan who are also in the same tier as Guldo. It's time stop not statistics reduction, time being stopped doesn't change the fact that they're universal and he's planetary. None of his attacks are going to do anything to them."

I think you might be misunderstanding something here.

" You mean just like he was going to hurt Moon busters + characters with the same trees, if his ability make you unable to defend yourself, it make you unable to defend yourself, you can't say one part works and not the other. "

Time Stop does not negate someone's durability. When time is stopped and someone doesn't have resistance, then that character would be unable to move or think or attack. That is the only difference though. The character would not lose their durability and any attacks that would normally do nothing to them would still do nothing to them. So Guldo would stop time, throw trees at Whis, and then those trees would break.
Click to expand...
From your bad argument, it's just the logical suit of your nonsense.

No, am i not, not fault if you can't recognise the blatant holes in your nonsense.

Except that if it doesn't negate durability, Guldo wouldn't be able to hurt Gohan and Krillin since they are massively stronger than him, so either it does or they aren't massively stronger than him and your argument fall appart.

Yeah so you really think that fodder from the namek saga would be able to paralyse Whis, thanks for confirming that your side of the argument make absolutly no sense and goes against everything in the show.
 
Ryukama said:
And the Angels and Zeno couldn't have made a vastly more powerful ki barrier than SSJ Trunks?
Click to expand...
And this isn't a strawman?

Nobody is talking about the hax not being avoidable by creating barriers, using your own hax (like Frost deflecting the Mafuba) or anything. We are saying that Toppo will kill Broly if his hax lands, because this shit about hax being countered by raw power in DB is outright false.

Going out now so won't be able to answer for a few hours.
 
Kepekley23 said:
Ryukama said:
And the Angels and Zeno couldn't have made a vastly more powerful ki barrier than SSJ Trunks?
Click to expand...
And this isn't a strawman?

Nobody is talking about the hax not being avoidable by creating barriers, using your own hax (like Frost deflecting the Mafuba) or anything. We are saying that Toppo will kill Broly if his hax lands, because this shit about hax being countered by raw power in DB is outright false.

Going out now so won't be able to answer for a few hours.
Click to expand...
Yeah, because your shit about magical, unmentionned and inherent resistance for Goku, Freezer and Vegeta is so much more true, Toppo would 100% insta kill anyone who isn't one of them, i wonder why Jiren is the main threat of the arc when you have Toppo and his hax that can't be resisted by anyone, except 3 random people for no reason.
 
The Hakai blasts can get countered by raw power. That's literally what Golden Frieza did to the attack, which he attributed to his power. Not some unmentioned magical inherent part of his being that only he and 2 other saiyans inexplicably have. SSBE was overpowering the Hakai blasts. Even if you want to assume other haxes could just kill all of the gods, Toppo's Hakai blasts just aren't capable of such.
 
As it stands, we treat Resistances to hax in DB as being a feat for the character when it comes to our profiles. Goku has Resistance to Time Stop because he's demonstrated it. We have not given it Vegeta, Frieza, Toppo, 17, etc. despite them being around a similiar level of power. Nor have we noted that Hit's Time abilities don't work on people stronger than him on his profile.

This creates confusion as we have contradicting information floating around.

AP>Hax in DB is seemingly a thing but is not reflected on the profiles in some kind of way.

Right now, our profile for Vegeta implies that Vegeta can overpower the Energy of Destruction because he has resistance to it. We treat it as a feat for him. He's naturally resistant, so he has grounds for being able to overpower it. If he overpowered it due to being stronger then Toppo's profile should say that his Energy of Destruction doesn't work on or is at least less effective people comparable to/stronger than him as a weakness.

I'm also going to bring up that power beating the Energy of Destruction is...debatable.

Yes, you have Vegeta overpowering Toppo, a contest between 2 Low 2-Cs with one being stronger than the other as proof for the AP>Hax. However, Frieza got his Resistance from being unaffected by Sidra's EoD. That's Low 2-C vs. 3-A, yet Frieza managed it. Also, Goku got his resistance when Frieza hit him with the same EoD. Goku was in base state and didn't get erased right then and there. Oh yeah, it hurt him but it should have annihilated him off the bat. Frieza and Goku should have been eradicated yet they weren't. This implies that they are just naturally resistant.

EDIT: I'd make the argument that the EoD depends on both resistance and power. It's a ki attack with hax properties. If you can resist the hax aspect then it comes down to just dealing with it like any other ki attack.

EDIT 2: I say that, instead of trying to assign some kind of general rule to how hax works in DB, we look at the showing of a particular technique and its ins and outs.

EXAMLPE:

Guldo's Time Stop works on everyone but he can only maintain it by holding his breath.

Hit's Time Stop is less or completely ineffective against people who are stronger than himself.

That kind of way, we can further sort out things like weaknesses of one character/technique or if a character is simply resistant to what the technique does.

Bottom Line: I think that both sides have a point in the 'How does Hax in DB work?' debate. We should evalutate case by case.
 
My vote is for Broly since I don't think that ALL hax in DB can be negated by power, BUT, it has clearly and consistently been shown that Hakai/EE in DB is not durability-negating and can be resisted by sheer power; so, by virtue of being way more powerful and faster than Toppo, Broly stomps. If ToP-saga Golden Frieza could withstand Toppo's hakai without dying, then Broly can do so without a single scratch, and that's all I really have to say on the matter as to why Broly should win this.
 
I'm sorry, but theres literally no evidence that Goku, vegeta or Frieza surviving a Hakai is because of some innate resistance that only they have. It's been shown quite a few times they "muscled" through it, so to speak, and theres plenty of evidence to support this.

We're talking about a guy who lost to SSB Vegeta, versus a guy who was pounding SSB Goku in a Pre-Super Saiyan state, and was nearly invincible in SS to both Goku and Vegeta in their SSB states, at the same time.

This isn't just a victory for Broly, it's a massacre.
 
Not really. If you look at Sidra's Hakai on Frieza, you see that it doesn't do anything to him. We're talking about a guy who's 3-A not getting erased by a Hakai from a god of destruction who's Low 2-C.
 
DragonEmperor23 said:
Not really. If you look at Sidra's Hakai on Frieza, you see that it doesn't do anything to him. We're talking about a guy who's 3-A not getting erased by a Hakai from a god of destruction who's Low 2-C.
Click to expand...
No that's because it was an infinitesimally small portion of Sidra's energy. We've seen what Toppo's Hakai does to Frieza. He would have been erased if it was not because of the rules. Also Beerus threatened Pre TOP Goku and Frieza multiple times to erase them

DB makes a completely wrong interpretation of Existence Erasure by making strong characters resist it. Also EE isn't something you can contain within hand as shown in the anime

Either we stick with the rules of this wiki and Broly get erased or we impose different rules for different verses like what Dragomer is suggesting
 
Read the hax page, a hax need the feat to affect someone with highter statistic, Toppo's hax doesn't so i don't see why everyone think that the rules of the wiki say that Toppo would win when they say the exact opposite.
 
"No that's because it was an infinitesimally small portion of Sidra's energy."

Where does Sidra say "I'm going to give you an infinitesimally small portion of my energy."? Not only does he not specify how much he gives but do you really think that a god of destruction would be dumb enough to give an assassin hakai but not enough to actually hakai the person who's supposed to be erased?

"We've seen what Toppo's Hakai does to Frieza." Absolutely nothing.
 
Dragomer said:
Read the hax page, a hax need the feat to affect someone with highter statistic, Toppo's hax doesn't so i don't see why everyone think that the rules of the wiki say that Toppo would win when they say the exact opposite.
Click to expand...
Never heard about such rules
 
JackJoyce said:
Dragomer said:
Read the hax page, a hax need the feat to affect someone with highter statistic, Toppo's hax doesn't so i don't see why everyone think that the rules of the wiki say that Toppo would win when they say the exact opposite.
Click to expand...
Never heard about such rules
Click to expand...
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Hax

'Having such abilities alone will not necessarily guarantee victory unless they have feats on such a scale that they can prove effective even against opponents with equal or even superior statistics to the user.'
 
"Seemed like a small portion to me"

He gave him some energy. Occam's razor dictates that the more likely option is that he gave him enough energy to kill Frieza when the goal of giving him the energy was so that he could kill Frieza.
 
Hax needing to prove that it works on beings with higher AP is completely anathema to the phrase, "X hax ability can negate or bypass durability" that's on everyone with offensive hax pages, including the Gods of Destruction.

That page needs a CRT.
 
I always took the 'relative' term seriously. It depends on the hax and the characters in question.

The problem comes when people can't agree on an intereptation.
 
Broly never fought Ssjbe Vegeta. Or Ssjbkk Goku.


Toppo took Golden Frieza out in one hit.


Broly couldn't even make Frieza go from Gold to base.


The movie followes the Manga. While God Toppo is a part of the Anime continuity.


Anime Scaling > Movie Scaling thus God Toppo should be > Broly.
 
The mental gymnastics used to make Toppo above Broly is crazy.

Like Seed said, Toriyama stated the movie follows the anime.

Also that scene with Broly and Frieza is just comic relief of Broly beating the living shit out of Frieza. He obviously could've one shot Frieza if he wanted to since he requires Goku and Vegeta to fuse, and then for that fusion to go SSB. Also if Broly legit couldn't put down Frieza, if anything that just means Frieza is an insane tank now rather than that being an anti-feat for Broly.

Even if you want to go with the whole only 3 random people in existence having some unmentioned magical innate trait that means Toppo could slaughter every character in the franchise but those 3 with Hakai regardless of strength, you just cannot argue that Toppo is physically stronger than Broly.
 
Ryukama said:
Creating headcanons about only 3 random people in existence having some unmentioned magical innate trait to excuse Toppo's hakai getting being overpowered is bad enough.

But saying Toppo is physically stronger than Broly too is just completely untrue.
Click to expand...
>Literally just me taking the scenes which prove my point and explaining them in the simplest way I can

>Creating Headcanon

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/f/f6/What-in-the-goddamn-****-38779285.png/revision/latest?cb=20190110151314
'


Anyway, that second thing you said, about Broly being physically >>>> than Toppo is absolutely true however.
 
Yes, Warren. The idea that Goku, Frieza and Vegeta just so happen to randomly and inexplicably be the only 3 beings in all of existence who have some unmentioned magical innate resistance unrelated to their power that allows them to negate Hakai, and that for some reason Toppo was considered Jiren's second fiddle even though Toppo had an attack that could've slayed him, all the GoDs, all the angels, the Zenos and everyone in the multiverse except these arbitrary 3 people is complete headcanon.

If not, then actually find anywhere in the canon where this idea is at all stated or alluded to instead of just citing "Well this site's guidelines on hax are" as if DB canon actually cares about what a foreign fan wiki's guidelines are. Where in DB canon are your ideas supported? Nowhere, which makes it headcanon.
 
" that for some reason Toppo was considered Jiren's second fiddle even though Toppo had an attack that could've slayed him" They're both Pride Troopers, why would an attack that is only lethal matter? It's not like Toppo's going to Hakai Jiren in a spar. And in an actual fight to the death, Jiren would be able to kill Toppo by glaring at him before he could even transform into GoD candidate mode.
 
So everyone in the series just constantly hypes about how Jiren has strength that can overpower a God of Destruction, yet no one gives any shit that Toppo has an attack that would slay Jiren, all of Gods of Destruction, all of the angels, Super Shenron and Zeno? That makes sense for some reason? Also Toppo has passive hakai barriers. By your logic he'd legitamately beat Jiren in a fight as long as he's in this form, since all of Jiren's blasts get hakai'd and he'd die trying to touch him. As would any of the GoDs, angels and Zeno. But nah Toppo's nothing compared to some dude who's just stronker than a GoD despite all these powers.
 
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