Battle of the DBS' Buff Bois - Broly vs Toppo

[Warren_Valion]

Yes, Warren. The idea that Goku, Frieza and Vegeta just so happen to randomly and inexplicably be the only 3 beings in all of existence who have some unmentioned magical innate resistance unrelated to their power that allows them to negate Hakai, and that for some reason Toppo was considered Jiren's second fiddle even though Toppo had an attack that could've slayed him, all the GoDs, all the angels, the Zenos and everyone in the multiverse except these arbitrary 3 people is complete headcanon.
If not, then actually find anywhere in the canon where this idea is at all stated or alluded to instead of just citing "Well this site's guidelines on hax are" as if DB canon actually cares about what a foreign fan wiki's guidelines are. Where in DB canon are your ideas supported? Nowhere, which makes it headcanon.

Goku, Frieza, and Vegeta are the only characters that have SHOWN to have resistance to EE, they don't have to be the only ones with the resistance, but until Broly or Grand Preist showcase or are stated to not be effective by Hakai, they won't get the resistance.

And enough with this reiterating of the resistance being, "unmentioned magical innate resistance". Dude, 98% of resistances on the wiki are unexplained innate magical resistances that just happen, don't act like this is something beyond the realm of belief.

This is an argument of incredulity. Just because the show has shitty writing, doesn't mean you can give people resistances to things that they have never shown to resist.


What a strawman.

Have you actually read any of my arguments on this thread? When have I ever just said, "well that's what the website says..."?

I have never just said that.

I gave a detailed commentary on the scenes where Frieza resisted Hakai, and even left links with the videos. I pointed out that nowhere in those videos did Frieza ever mention increasing his "resistance" in the slightest. He was explicitly shown to control and manipulate the energy around him by shrinking it.


I even gave proof with this clip.

In where the notion that "Ki Energy level = Hakai resistance" is completely debunked.

There are multiple times in Toppo's fight with Frieza that we see Frieza's Energy blasts being causally erased by Toppo's Hakai.

But in the same exact fight, we see Frieza both being physically touched by Toppo with his Hakai Aura and by his energy blasts(and Sidra's earlier that arc) and is not erased at all.

Proving that Frieza's resistance to EE comes from an innate resistance, not from his Ki.


So there, proof in the series, as I said.

 

[Warren_Valion]

So everyone in the series just constantly hypes about how Jiren has strength that can overpower a God of Destruction, yet no one gives any shit that Toppo has an attack that would slay Jiren, all of Gods of Destruction, all of the angels, Super Shenron and Zeno? That makes sense for some reason? Also Toppo has passive hakai barriers. By your logic he'd legitamately beat Jiren in a fight as long as he's in this form, since all of Jiren's blasts get hakai'd and he'd die trying to touch him. As would any of the GoDs, angels and Zeno. But nah Toppo's nothing compared to some dude who's just stronker than a GoD despite all these powers.

You do know the whole, "Second Fiddle" thing was before Toppo became a God, right?

And that the reason for shafting Toppo was clearly to establish Jiren as the main villain and a seemingly unstoppable threat, as he was done since the beginning of the arc when Jiren is first mentioned by Toppo in the preliminary rounds as even greater than himself, and an "unbeatable foe".

It's called shitty writing. Guess what, this is Dragon Ball Super - that shit is everywhere. And even if it doesn't make a whole lot of sense, you have to take what the narrative gives you and try and make it work somehow.

 

[Ryukama]

" And enough with this reiterating of the resistance being, "unmentioned magical innate resistance".

I reiterate it because you call everything else headcanon while asserting this idea which is never one stated or alluded to anywhere within canon. You only believe this is canon cause of what this site says about how we should treat hax. The canon itself doesn't support these ideas.

And now you're just saying "Well it doesn't need to be mentioned in the series" while saying everything else others are saying is headcanon cause it isn't mentioned in the series.

If you're going to say "Just because the show has shitty writing, doesn't mean you can give people resistances to things that they have never shown to resist" I'd say "Just because the show's writing didn't spoonfeed to the audience that Toppo's attacks can't kill Jiren, all the GoDs, the angels, Super Shenron and Zeno doesn't mean you can exaggerate Toppo's attack to such godlike levels even when there's no evidence it works that well and we've seen it fail on vastly lower characters".

Toppo's not using his full hakai energy to kill Frieza as this is against the rules. Not sure how that proves the idea that Goku, Frieza and Vegeta just so happen to randomly and inexplicably be the only 3 beings in all of existence who have some unmentioned magical innate resistance unrelated to their power that allows them to negate Hakai.

 

[Warren_Valion]

" And enough with this reiterating of the resistance being, "unmentioned magical innate resistance".
I reiterate it because you call everything else headcanon while asserting this idea which is never one stated or alluded to anywhere within canon. You only believe this is canon cause of what this site says about how we should treat hax. The canon itself doesn't support these ideas.

And now you're just saying "Well it doesn't need to be mentioned in the series" while saying everything else others are saying is headcanon cause it isn't mentioned in the series.

If you're going to say "Just because the show has shitty writing, doesn't mean you can give people resistances to things that they have never shown to resist" I'd say "Just because the show's writing didn't spoonfeed to the audience that Toppo's attacks can't kill Jiren, all the GoDs, the angels, Super Shenron and Zeno doesn't mean you can exaggerate Toppo's attack to such godlike levels even when there's no evidence it works that well and we've seen it fail on vastly lower characters".

Toppo's not using his full hakai energy to kill Frieza as this is against the rules. Not sure how that proves the idea that Goku, Frieza and Vegeta just so happen to randomly and inexplicably be the only 3 beings in all of existence who have some unmentioned magical innate resistance unrelated to their power that allows them to negate Hakai.

Stating that Frieza was powering up to "increase his resistance" instead of controlling the Ki by shrinking is what I call headcanon, because you are ignoring what is literally happening in the scene and making up the context even after being reshown it and having it clearly explained over and over.


That's a false equivalency.

Not showing how someone gains a seemingly magical and innate resistance to an ability is extremely common in fiction, and yes even in Dragon Ball - Candy Vegito, anyone? Saying that their energy source is the reason that they are able to resist EE when it is never stated and is actually shown to be the opposite is not - it is taking the scene out of context to try and prove a point.

How many times must something be stated for you to fully comprehend it? Those other characters CAN have a resistance, but they don't because they haven't SHOWN it to us. Why not? Because no one else has fought against another Hakai users. Jiren could very well have EE resistances, same with the Angels and such. Hell, it would make a lot of sense, but it wasn't shown to us, and until it is, we can't just handout resistances.

"Not sure how that proves the idea that Goku, Frieza, and Vegeta just so happen to randomly and inexplicably be the only 3 beings in all of existence who have some unmentioned magical innate resistance unrelated to their power that allows them to negate Hakai."

It doesn't. It shows that the resistance to EE does not stem from their Ki, and that out of all the characters in the series, only Goku, Frieza, and Vegeta have shown such a resistance.


And Toppo was stated, as a brand new God of Destruction, to not have full mastery over controlling Hakai. To state that he can suppress the EE properties of both his Hakai blasts and Hakai armor is completely ridiculous.

 

[Dragomer]

Warren, take your L, your nonsense isn't in line with what the hax's page state so make a CRT or drop it.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Warren, take your L, your nonsense isn't in line with what the hax's page state so make a CRT or drop it.

I'll make a CRT on the Hax page over the weekend.

As what is written on it is a complete antithesis to both the profiles on the site and the general opinion by said site's members.

 

[Ryukama]

"Stating that Frieza was powering up to "increase his resistance" instead of controlling the Ki by shrinking is what I call headcanon"

But by your logic, it doesn't matter if the series never states this due to its shitty writing and your objection to it is only an "appeal to incredulity" .

"because you are ignoring what is literally happening in the scene and making up the context even after being reshown it and having it clearly explained over and over."

Oh but saying that Frieza just has this magical innate resistance as his being that he never once mentioned isn't making things up? Frieza never once talks about this property or whatever. All he brags about is his power, so it's more reasonable to say his power is what's helping him do all this instead of some completely unmentioned part of his being or whatever. His power is the closest thing to an explanation we get. This "magical property stuff" is never explained once. Let alone "over and over".

"Saying that their energy source is the reason that they are able to resist EE when it is never stated and is actually shown to be the opposite is not"

Again you show your hypocrisy. Frieza using energy to resist EE needs to be stated, but the idea that Goku, Frieza, and Vegeta just so happen to randomly and inexplicably be the only 3 beings in all of existence who have some unmentioned magical innate resistance unrelated to their power that allows them to negate Hakai doesn't need to be stated. Also I'd say Toppo's Hakai being as godly as you say is actually shown to be the opposite, since again he can't even kill SSBE Vegeta with it.

"And Toppo was stated, as a brand new God of Destruction, to not have full mastery over controlling Hakai. To state that he can suppress the EE properties of both his Hakai blasts and Hakai armor is completely ridiculous."

Again another "appeal to incredulity". Or how about alternatively "Toppo was stated, as a brand new God of Destruction, to not have full mastery over controlling Hakai. To state that he can use his Hakai to slaughter Jiren, all the GoDs, all the angels, Super Shenron and Zeno is completely ridiculous."

So Toppo being able to restrict his energy to a certain extent which any somewhat competent energy user can do is "completely ridiculous" but Toppo using his Hakai to slaughter all the gods in the series isn't?

 

[Dragomer]

Warren, take your L, your nonsense isn't in line with what the hax's page state so make a CRT or drop it.

I'll make a CRT on the Hax page over the weekend.
As what is written on it is a complete antithesis to both the profiles on the site and the general opinion by said site's members.

I don't care, make the CRT, mention what that would mean about magical unmentionned resistance that are inherent to only 3 characters and how Toppo solo DBS, get the result and then comeback, until then drop it, don't keep going with your shit after making a fuse about CRTs.

 

[Ryukama]

"Frieza just so happens to randomly and inexplicably be one of three special people in the entire multiverse to have a magical innate resistance as part of his being which is why he tanked the blast. Toppo could've used his Hakai blast to slaughter Jiren, all the GoDs, all the angels, Super Shenron and Zeno"

"But that explanation for Frieza tanking it is never stated. Also that latter statement is completely ridiculous, as there's no way Toppo's Hakai is effective enough to do that."

"Just cause the series never states this doesn't mean you can call these ideas ridiculous as that's just argument of incredulity"

_

"Frieza and Vegeta overpowered the Hakai attack cause their power is the only thing that's ever mentioned when they overpowered it. Toppo restricted his Hakai blasts like any somewhat competent energy user since he knew killing Frieza would be against the rules."

"But that explanation for Frieza tanking it is never stated. Also that latter statement is completely ridiculous, as there's no way Toppo's Hakai is effective enough to do that."

Got it.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Broly says "**** your wussy ass Hakai" and one-shots.

 

[Warren_Valion]

*Snip*

At this point, you either haven't read my arguments clearly or lack the ability to. There are no other conclusions to be made.

"Frieza just so happens to randomly and inexplicably be one of three special people in the entire multiverse to have a magical innate resistance as part of his being which is why he tanked the blast. Toppo could've used his Hakai blast to slaughter Jiren, all the GoDs, all the angels, Super Shenron and Zeno"

I have explained why this isn't necessarily the case numerous times. Those who show resistance should get them, not those that don't just because "muh powerscaling".

"Just cause the series never states this doesn't mean you can call these ideas ridiculous as that's just argument of incredulity"

How is saying that Toppo being able to "hold back" the EE properties of both his Hakai blasts and Armor is nonsense because he was directly stated in the series to not have total control over Hakai because he was a new G.o.D., an argument of incredulity or headcanon?

Seriously. How is taking lines directly from the show headcanon? Please explain this to me.


"Frieza and Vegeta overpowered the Hakai attack cause their power is the only thing that's ever mentioned when they overpowered it. Toppo restricted his Hakai blasts like any somewhat competent energy user since he knew killing Frieza would be against the rules."

And those statements of power are shown in the next scene to be manipulating the energy to shrink it and not to "resist it". That's the context, that's what happened.

And let's use your logic in an example, kay?

If having more Ki meant better resistance to EE, then why, when Goku was powering up in the Hakai couldn't he resist its influence?

If more ki meant a better resistance, then powering up would mean that the more he powers up, the easier it should be for him to continue to power up, as he would be getting more and more resistance to EE - making the act of powering up more and more effective. That, as shown in the scene, is not the case.

What is shown is Goku trying to shrink the Hakai blast like Frieza, but since he wasn't on the same level of power as Golden Frieza in his base, and he wasn't able to control the Hakai energy any longer, and it began to consume him.

Oh, and Toppo was still shown to be able to use normal Ki blast as well, as he did this in his God form against Android 17, but he didn't - he went for Hakai.


Do you know what's the difference between our arguments Ryu?

I have taken what is stated and visually shown to us the audience in the series, and yours solely relies on, "Well, the powerscaling wouldn't make any sense!"

Maybe if you actually prove what I have said is wrong with scenes in their full context from the series, please? You could get your argument across better to me, because frankly, you aren't making any sense otherwise.

 

[Ryukama]

"I have explained why this isn't necessarily the case numerous times. Those who show resistance should get them, not those that don't just because "muh powerscaling".

Yes it is the case if you're saying the only thing to treat as canon is that Goku, Vegeta and Frieza have this magical property. Also Toppo shouldn't be able to kill beings he has never shown anywhere close to the capability to (even the opposite) cause "muh hax dura negation".

"How is saying that Toppo being able to "hold back" the EE properties of both his Hakai blasts and Armor is nonsense because he was directly stated in the series to not have total control over Hakai because he was a new G.o.D., an argument of incredulity or headcanon? Seriously. How is taking lines directly from the show headcanon? Please explain this to me."

Just cause Toppo doesn't have total mastery does not mean he can't restrict the power of the hakai blast to certain extents. Any somewhat competent energy user can restrict their power to certain extents. Also explain how saying "Frieza just so happens to randomly and inexplicably be one of three special people in the entire multiverse to have a magical innate resistance as part of his being which is why he tanked the blast. Toppo could've used his Hakai blast to slaughter Jiren, all the GoDs, all the angels, Super Shenron and Zeno" isn't nonsense or headcanon then. The latter statements are far more absurd, presumptuous and overexaggerating Toppo's established abilities.

"If having more Ki meant better resistance to EE, then why, when Goku was powering up in the Hakai couldn't he resist its influence? If more ki meant a better resistance, then powering up would mean that the more he powers up, the easier it should be for him to continue to power up, as he would be getting more and more resistance to EE - making it more and more effective. That, as shown in the scene, is not the case."

Goku was in base form and caught off guard so he couldn't resist it as well or power up cause the Hakai blast was ******* him up. If he got hit while in SSB or a higher form he wouldn't feel anything just like with Frieza.

"I have taken what is stated and visually shown to us the audience in the series, and yours solely relies on, "Well, the powerscaling wouldn't make any sense!"

Lol "Frieza just so happens to randomly and inexplicably be one of three special people in the entire multiverse to have a magical innate resistance as part of his being which is why he tanked the blast. Toppo could've used his Hakai blast to slaughter Jiren, all the GoDs, all the angels, Super Shenron and Zeno" is never what is stated or shown in the slightest.

I'm going by the Occam's Razor of Frieza and Vegeta using their power to overpower it cause their power is the only thing ever mentioned when they do so. And that things like Toppo being able to beat all of the highest gods obviously makes no sense. Yours solely relies on "Well a foreign fan wiki says that hax always works on everyone regardless of strength unless explicitly stated not to, so even when we see people overpower a hax we have to attribute it to some made up magical innate property only these people randomly have.

 

[Ryukama]

Also worth pointing out that the entire idea that Hakai negates all durability and works on stronger people in the first place is never even stated or shown in the series. Beerus, Sidra and Toppo have only ever shown to have it work or somewhat work on people who are much weaker than them. Again, it's cause a foreign fan wiki proclaimed that it'd have to negate durability that we assume it does when really there's no solid evidence within the canon that it does.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Ryukama's right.

Unless you want to claim that the likes of Toppo, Beerus, or Sidra could Hakai Zeno because he hasn't shown any feats of resisting existence erasure, despite them being portrayed as completely powerless against him, then lol no it doesn't work on stronger opponents.

 

[Maicol2244]

I going with Broly here

 

[Ryukama]

Unless you want to claim that the likes of Toppo, Beerus, or Sidra could Hakai Zeno because he hasn't shown any feats of resisting existence erasure, despite them being portrayed as completely powerless against him

Exactly! Or about how Jiren is constantly hyped to oblivion cause of the fact that he has the ability to beat a God of Destruction. Yet no one gives any shit that Toppo has the ability to beat Jiren, all the GoDs, all the angels, Super Shenron and Zeno and he's merely treated as Jiren's second fiddle for some reason. Also the whole "they'd blitz and one shot before he uses Hakai that's why" doesn't even work since Toppo has passive Hakai barriers that by this logic would kill these guys even if they tried doing that. So MUI Goku and Jiren get hyped for having forms that beat GoDs, yet Toppo gets zero hype for having a form that beats Zeno.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

So everyone in the series just constantly hypes about how Jiren has strength that can overpower a God of Destruction, yet no one gives any shit that Toppo has an attack that would slay Jiren, all of Gods of Destruction, all of the angels, Super Shenron and Zeno? That makes sense for some reason? Also Toppo has passive hakai barriers. By your logic he'd legitamately beat Jiren in a fight as long as he's in this form, since all of Jiren's blasts get hakai'd and he'd die trying to touch him. As would any of the GoDs, angels and Zeno. But nah Toppo's nothing compared to some dude who's just stronker than a GoD despite all these powers.

I mean, if you give a 9-C human with subsonic reaction speeds a High 1-B gun, is that person going to be able to solo the DBZ pantheon? That's what Toppo is compared to the god tiers. Utterly outclassed in power and speed. Again, it wasn't mentioned on this thread but Wokistan mentioned how in story the God tiers probably have resistance to hakai, but it hasn't been shown yet. Probably because no one's dumb enough to think they can Hakai a GoD without immediately getting swarmed by everyone else. No, Jiren has his glare which in limit breaker would be more than enough to kill Toppo in any form.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

The whole "can negate conventional durability by destroying one's soul and erasing them from existence" has gotta go in the trash and instead it should be listed as a weakness "Hakai/existence erasure can be overpowered by stronger opponents."

 

[DragonEmperor23]

The whole "can negate conventional durability by destroying one's soul and erasing them from existence" has gotta go in the trash and instead it should be listed as a weakness "Hakai/existence erasure can be overpowered by stronger opponents."

I'd tell you to make a CRT for it but there's already a thread discussing it right now.

 

[Ryukama]

"I mean, if you give a 9-C human with subsonic reaction speeds a High 1-B gun, is that person going to be able to solo the DBZ pantheon? That's what Toppo is compared to the god tiers. Utterly outclassed in power and speed."

Again this is irrelevant since Toppo has a passive Hakai barrier that by your logic would kill these guys if they were to try and blitz and one shot him. Toppo has a form that legitamately beats all these guys in a real fight. So why does no one care when everyone is freaking the hell out over Goku and Jiren having forms that can only beat Gods of Destruction in a real fight?

"Again, it wasn't mentioned on this thread but Wokistan mentioned how in story the God tiers probably have resistance to hakai, but it hasn't been shown yet."

Toppo should prove that his Hakai is good enough to slay the god tiers. Not the god tiers prove they can't be slayed by Toppo's hakai. Especially when we see far lesser characters have it not work on them, with none of this "exlusive magical property" stuff ever being cited as the reason why.

"No, Jiren has his glare which in limit breaker would be more than enough to kill Toppo in any form."

Even if we're to say the energy his glare emits couldn't get Hakai'd, only Jiren has shown to have this glare (just as you say only those 3 dudes have shown to have the magic property to resist). Not the other GoDs, angels, Super Shenron or Zeno. So by this logic he still legitamately beats those guys.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

I'd tell you to make a CRT for it but there's already a thread discussing it right now.

I know.

I've commented on it.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

right, im just saying you could bump it or something instead of just recommenting what you said on the thread that'll decide it instead of talking about it overhere

im going to do a vote count on it now, not because they matter, just to see what the sides are looking like.

 

[Warren_Valion]

"Just cause Toppo doesn't have total mastery does not mean he can't restrict the power of the hakai blast to certain extents. Any somewhat competent energy user can restrict their power to certain extents. Also, explain how saying "Frieza just so happens to randomly and inexplicably be one of three special people in the entire multiverse to have a magical innate resistance as part of his being which is why he tanked the blast. Toppo could've used his Hakai blast to slaughter Jiren, all the GoDs, all the angels, Super Shenron, and Zeno" isn't nonsense or headcanon then. The latter statements are far more absurd, presumptuous and overexaggerating Toppo's established abilities."

Holding back physical strength and holding back EE properties to an attack that uses erasure energy when it was stated he couldn't control said energy completely is not the same thing in the slightest. Anyone can hold back a punch, even me and you.

It is obvious from the scene that Toppo was holding back, I don't doubt that, but it was his physical strength. When he was squeezing Frieza's head, he could have popped it like a balloon, but he didn't.

But to control a specific property of an attack when it was said he couldn't is just ignoring the canon material.

I'm just going to quote what I said in a previous comment until you actually read it:

How many times must something be stated for you to fully comprehend it? Those other characters CAN have a resistance, but they don't because they haven't SHOWN it to us. Why not? Because no one else has fought against another Hakai users. Jiren could very well have EE resistances, same with the Angels and such. Hell, it would make a lot of sense, but it wasn't shown to us, and until it is, we can't just handout resistances.


"Goku was in base form and caught off guard so he couldn't resist it as well or power up cause the Hakai blast was ******* him up. If he got hit while in SSB or a higher form he wouldn't feel anything just like with Frieza."

You are incorrect. Here's the scene again for reference.

The scene starts with Frieza throwing the Hakai at Goku. Goku says, "What the **** Frieza?" Frieza responds, "I'm evil you dumbass." Goku then starts powering up, and we see the energy ball start shrinking as it did with Frieza. Frieza looks impressed until we see Goku reach some sort of limit, he can't manipulate the energy for it is too great in just his base form. The ball expands back to its original size and Goku continues to scream in pain with Frieza laughing at how pathetic Goku is. Beerus then shows up to breaths the blast away. Goku thanks him.

He was clearly shown powering up, and it was clearly shown to have an effect on the energy. His power was shown to manipulate the energy, not improve his survivability within the Hakai.

Nothing is stated or even implies that. Frieza saying, "Look at my power" doesn't mean that he is resisting Hakai through his power. It means through his (Frieza's) own power, he can control and manipulate "the energy of a God."

That the God's strength is nothing to him, he's wrong, but he doesn't know that yet. Not until he meets Toppo, where he tells Toppo. "I am beyond the Gods and can stop your blast with one hand." Frieza then gets absorbed by the Hakai blast and is quickly overwhelmed.

We actually get to see Frieza tank a Hakai blast that was stronger than him.


"Frieza just so happens to randomly and inexplicably be one of three special people in the entire multiverse to have a magical innate resistance as part of his being which is why he tanked the blast. Toppo could've used his Hakai blast to slaughter Jiren, all the GoDs, all the angels, Super Shenron and Zeno" is never what is stated or shown in the slightest."

How many times must something be stated for you to fully comprehend it? Those other characters CAN have a resistance, but they don't because they haven't SHOWN it to us. Why not? Because no one else has fought against another Hakai users. Jiren could very well have EE resistances, same with the Angels and such. Hell, it would make a lot of sense, but it wasn't shown to us, and until it is, we can't just handout resistances.


"Well, a foreign fan wiki says that hax always works on everyone regardless of strength unless explicitly stated not to, so even when we see people overpower a hax we have to attribute it to some made up magical innate property only these people randomly have."

I have never said this - do not strawman me. I have shown numerous clips both explaining how your outlook on those scenes that you mentioned are you taking them without the proper context and that there are instances of characters surviving being Hakai'd while their energy doesn't.

Your response was, "He controls the EE of his EE energy because rules", I responded with, "He was stated to not be able to because he's a noob,God", you then responded, "but the scaling makes no sense otherwise", and I concluded, "I agree it would be illogical, and that other characters having resistances are also a great probability, but we need actual physical proof before we give characters any abilities or resistances."

You then say I'm using headcanon, and our argument repeats ad infinitum.

 

[Dragomer]

Go make the ******* CRT or shut up with your nonsensical walls of freaking text, for god's sake, the hax page is telling your argument to shove it so drop it.

 

[Ryukama]

The less powerful a Hakai blast is the less effective it is in general. If Toppo was holding back the power of the Hakai blast then it reasonably could be said it won't be as effective. Even then the fact that a weaker character can resist the attack doesn't somehow prove that Toppo can now use it on vastly stronger characters and have it work. If anything kinda the opposite.

Also just cause Toppo isn't a master doesn't mean he can't restrain it somewhat. Restraining energy somewhat is a basic thing.

"Nothing is stated or even implies that." You mean like all this "magical innate resistance" stuff? Frieza only ever brings up his power in this entire sequence, so it's more resonable to attribute it all to his power than this made up magical innate resistance.

Goku clearly got hit with the Hakai in base and off guard. Goku tried to power up and briefly shrunk it but it was no good because he was hit in off guard base form. If Goku got hit in SSB he'd have no problem overpowering it.

If you're saying that as of now, we have to conclude that only Frieza, Goku and Vegeta have resistance then you are saying that Frieza just so happens to randomly and inexplicably be one of three special people in the entire multiverse to have a magical innate resistance as part of his being which is why he tanked the blast. And that Toppo could've used his Hakai blast to slaughter Jiren, all the GoDs, all the angels, Super Shenron and Zeno. You're merely saying there's a chance this might get changed in the future, but it's still your current stance.

Your entire ideas of Hakai working on everyone regardless of strength and these "magical innate resistance" stuff is based on how this site treats hax. Not on what is actually stated in the series.

Toppo being able to to slaughter all the gods with Hakai as a noob GoD is vastly more absurd than Toppo being able to somewhat restrain his Hakai as a noob GoD. Also again, Toppo should prove that his Hakai is actually good enough to slay all the gods. Not the gods proving it won't slay them. Saying that Toppo's Hakai is this amazing requires much more wanking, assumptions, adding elements of canon that aren't there and breaking the series internal logic than just saying it's that good. Even if you want to say the gods resisting the attack is somewhat presumptuous.

 

[Warren_Valion]

I'm done.

I am just too tired and don't care anymore.

We are just repeating arguments over and over and over and over again. We will never get anywhere, and I am tired of wasting my day arguing to a brick wall. Said walls of text continuously getting bigger and bigger with each response.

Since this seems to be a revision, my recommendation is to move the conversation over to @DragonEmperor23 thread and have both regular members and other staff members to give their opinions about the topic and both arguments.

Then set up a vote about the topic.

If the majority agrees with you, then you are going to have to make the changes to the pages. If they don't, you don't have to do anything I guess.

Anyway...

"There's a lot to see in this life. I'm not wasting it here."

Goodbye.

 

[Wokistan]

Regardless of the whole EE thing can't broly just shoot kinda near toppo and liquefy him with the shockwave of his blast

 

[Dragomer]

Regardless of the whole EE thing can't broly just shoot kinda near toppo and liquefy him with the shockwave of his blast

No since the EE armor would erase the impact.

 

[Wokistan]

I don't think toppo has ever erased random force like that. He'd fall through the floor if it was so.

 

[Dragomer]

I don't think toppo has ever erased random force like that. He'd fall through the floor if it was so.

If you could just indirectly push him, i'd think 17 or Vegeta would have tried and even if it could work, i doubt Broly would figure it out fast enought to not die.

If we go with the whole 'Magical resistance for 3 characters and that's all', Broly has almost no chance of winning even if we assume you're right while Toppo just need to touch him with anything to win.

 

[Warren_Valion]

I don't think toppo has ever erased random force like that. He'd fall through the floor if it was so.

Actually, this makes sense.

Broly's AP advantage is huge enough that Toppo should probably be killed from the force of his punches alone.

 

[Ryukama]

Okay so this is my final response on the manner. Anyone can say or think whatever they want I'm done here.

So we have Frieza tank the Hakai blast, then brag about his power as he overpowers it. There are two proposed explanations.

• Frieza used his power he was bragging about to tank and overpower the attack.

• Frieza only used his aforementioned power to overpower the attack, but the tanking part was the result of some unmentioned magical innate part of Frieza's being completely unrelated to his power that Frieza and the series never ever bring up. And that Frieza and 2 random saiyans are for no given reason the only beings in the entire multiverse to have this magical innate property. Meaning that Toppo could've used his Hakai to slaughter Jiren, all the GoDs, all the angels, Super Shenron and Zeno (even if they tried to blitz and one shot him cause passive barrier). Yet for some reason he was only treated as Jiren's second fiddle, with Jiren being so hyped for just being able to defeat a God of Destruction.

Which explanation do you think would be favored by Occam's Razor? Which explanation do you think requires less headcanon, speculation, exaggerations of characters' abilities and a breaking of the series logic? Even if you think both are assumptive which one do you believe to be less so? The one that simply attributes it to Frieza's power since that's all that's ever stated or mentioned as he does this, or the one that brings up all these new mechanics and plot twists that are never stated or mentioned into the series?ÔÇ¿ Plus don't you think if such important things like Frieza, Goku and Vegeta having some vital magical property and Toppo having the ability to slaughter Jiren, all the GoDs, all the angels, Super Shenron and Zeno were actually a canon thing in the series, that they'd mention it at some point.

But no none of these things ever are. Why? Because these ideas are not actually canon into the series. It is merely because of this site's guidelines on hax and resistance that people are saying this is the case. We're straight up making things up and claiming them to be canonical facts within these narratives just so it can fit with the standards of a foreign fan wiki. The worst part is that in this case it's being done to commit No Limits Fallacies, when VS debaters usually discard the narrative to prevent No Limits Fallacies.

As for "Well yes it does make zero sense for Toppo to be able to beat Jiren, all the GoDs, all the angels, Super Shenron and Zeno we have to assume for that because there's no current proof that they have resistance" no. The burden of proof should be on Toppo to prove that his Hakai is so insanely powerful that it can slaughter all these gods. Not for the gods to prove that they can't be slaughtered by it. The presupposition should not be that Toppo's got an all powerful attack that will work on anyone unless outright stated otherwise.

Also as I already pointed out, the very idea that Hakai negates all durability and strength making it work on more powerful characters is never even once stated or shown in the first place. Beerus, Sidra and Toppo have only ever had it succeed or somewhat succeed on characters vastly weaker than them. So this is another headcanon and another assumption to begin with for those who say the gods resisting it is headcanon or too assumptive.

Now I am not saying that DB characters resist all hax as long as they are stronger or any of that. However I am saying that Toppo's Hakai attack in particular just simply isn't good enough to work on these higher gods. You want to call that a resistance on their part or a weakness on Hakai's, whatever. But regardless I just don't think Toppo's attack is so powerful or that it should be assumed as such. Nor should brand new, headcanon elements like a magical innate resistance exclusive to 3 random dudes be made up to excuse it showing not to be so powerful.

I know there are still people who think that saying the gods resist Toppo's attack is headcanon and wanking them. But I ask which you think is a bigger headcanon and wank? That Toppo has this unfathomably powerful technique that allows him to curbstomp Jiren, all the GoDs, all the angels, Super Shenron, Zeno and everyone else besides 3 guys who have some completely unmentioned magical property? Or that Toppo's attack just isn't that effective and wouldn't work on them, just as it didn't work on vastly less powerful people?

TLDR: Broly

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Pretty sure this is a massive AP stomp in Broly's favor; especially as pointed out by Ryukama.

 

[JackJoyce]

" that for some reason Toppo was considered Jiren's second fiddle even though Toppo had an attack that could've slayed him" They're both Pride Troopers, why would an attack that is only lethal matter? It's not like Toppo's going to Hakai Jiren in a spar. And in an actual fight to the death, Jiren would be able to kill Toppo by glaring at him before he could even transform into GoD candidate mode.

Jiren has already been mentioned as the mortal even a Hakaishin cannot defeat. He must have resistance to EE

 

[-BANLK-]

Toppo gets the Freeza treatment.

 

[JackJoyce]

Now I am not saying that DB characters resist all hax as long as they are stronger or any of that. However I am saying that Toppo's Hakai attack in particular just simply isn't good enough to work on these higher gods. You want to call that a resistance on their part or a weakness on Hakai's, whatever. But regardless I just don't think Toppo's attack is so powerful or that it should be assumed as such. Nor should brand new, headcanon elements like a magical innate resistance exclusive to 3 random dudes be made up to excuse it showing not to be so powerful.

What you are basically saying is that Hakai and Time stop in DB sucks

My only question is that does this rule apply in vs fights between other verses with DB?

 

[Ryukama]

What you are basically saying is that Hakai and Time stop in DB sucks

My only question is that does this rule apply in vs fights between other verses with DB?

If you want to interpret it as that sure.

I don't know how this site would treat it nor do I have too much of a strong opinion. However if we're talking in universe, then I personally don't think these powers should work on characters canonically stronger than those they failed on.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

I have always believed and agreed that Power > Hax in the Dragon World. It has always functioned that way. The only real exceptions to this would be oddities early on in DB like Devilman and Monster Carrot as well as Guldo with his time stop ability that seems to function regardless of power difference.

Honestly, I'm just waiting for the day where it's outright stated and agreed that Dragon Ball verse should be treated as Anti-Hax but most of it is just chalked up to superior Ki > Ki technique rather than superior Ki > hax due to how it's presented.

 

[JackJoyce]

So we can make a Superboy-Prime vs Toppo matchup without making it a stomp right?

 

[Dragomer]

So we can make a Superboy-Prime vs Toppo matchup without making it a stomp right?

Isn't Superboy 2-C here ?