[0-7-0] Blue Hair vs Red Monkey - DBS Manga Goku vs GT Goku

[noninho]

Well, I don't know about you guys but I really like the debate about who's stronger – Goku's Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan (who's appalling name the Fandom adapted to "Super Saiyan Blue") or Super Saiyan 4 from the non-canon (I can dream/dare to say yet, can't I?) Dragon Ball GT.

This debate has happened before here in the forum, but at the time only GT's was scaling to 3-Verses-2-C, and apparently now both of them do yaaaaaaaaay
"There's anime MUI" nah, we don't talk about that...oh yeah, let's get to the rules!

-DBS Manga Goku, Universe Survival - Broly Saga key
-GT Goku is in his Post-Negative Karma Ball key
-Both will start in SSJ3...just because why not and it kinda accelerates the "Oh yeah, you're tough! I will let you meet my even stronger form!!!!!"
-To avoid problems, speed will start equalized

May the **itstorm begins!

Embrace Modernity -

Return to Monke - TegamiBachi25, noninho, Nierre, Mariogoods, Fezzih_007, AnAverageUsername, Brogeefrong

Alluva sudden they dance Axé lol what (incon) -

 

[noninho]

I know little about Dragon Ball but I'd like to see ssj4 winning, ngl

 

[GlaceonGamez471]

-As this is aiming to solve a question between two specific forms, DBS Goku's UI is restricted (I hope it's still addable)

It is not, Versus Thread Rules:

• It is not fine to restrict abilities in a versus matchup, implicitly or expressly. Matches that are arranged this way should not be added to the character profiles, as they don't involve their full potential, and are only intended for casual entertainment.
  • An exception would be if the restricted ability/technique has a separate tier from the main one, and is one the character can consciously restrict themselves from using. In this case, the match can be added.

It doesn't grant Goku a new tier, so you can't if you want it to be added

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Think Post-Negative Karma Ball GT Goku is the strongest 3U DB character, but I'm not sure

 

[RedReaper]

So if I remember correctly, GT Goku (at 3U) vastly outscales the DBS Goku's at 3U.

DBS starts at 3U in BoG at SSG, and starts upscaling.

GT Goku starts, bare minimum, upscaling 400x 3U in base (likely far higher, as Post-Vegito Division Goku was ~ Toei Kid Buu, who was > Toei Buuhan) because he's as strong as EoZ SSJ3 in base in the very FIRST episode of GT. And then starts upscaling.

So I'm certain GT is stronger. However, speed is equalized, and while GT has vastly superior stamina and more experience, has superior Zenkais, (his body can adapt to techniques to counter them after experiencing it once, and he was able to copy a Shadow Dragon's ability on sight, so perhaps better technique mimicry?), he lacks the wider array of abilities that Super Manga Goku has now, since that Goku now has Hakai, Mafuba, the God Bind, Illusions (which if they're anything like Moro's, can fool Instant Transmission), as well as the ability to heal himself, albeit slowly, over time, alongside other moves. Given how the God Bind was able to be adapted to and countered, he could feasibly nullify that, and given that GT Goku can sense Intent, he may be able to even figure out just how dangerous Hakai is, but other techniques like the illusions won't be possible for him to really get around.

So it's a power and stamina vs technique/hax and versatilty fight.

 

[noninho]

It doesn't grant Goku a new tier

Technically it does as his AP states "higher", no?

 

[GlaceonGamez471]

Technically it does as his AP states "higher", no?

It does, but it doesn't grant him a different tier

 

[noninho]

Well, then imma change keys to ToP and take off the restriction

 

[noninho]

So it's a power and stamina vs technique/hax and versatilty fight.

Goku in this key is severely older so he should out-experience to hell and take the upper hand, no?

 

[noninho]

Bump

 

[TegamiBachi25]

So if I remember correctly, GT Goku (at 3U) vastly outscales the DBS Goku's at 3U.

DBS starts at 3U in BoG at SSG, and starts upscaling.

GT Goku starts, bare minimum, upscaling 400x 3U in base (likely far higher, as Post-Vegito Division Goku was ~ Toei Kid Buu, who was > Toei Buuhan) because he's as strong as EoZ SSJ3 in base in the very FIRST episode of GT. And then starts upscaling.

So I'm certain GT is stronger. However, speed is equalized, and while GT has vastly superior stamina and more experience, has superior Zenkais, (his body can adapt to techniques to counter them after experiencing it once, and he was able to copy a Shadow Dragon's ability on sight, so perhaps better technique mimicry?), he lacks the wider array of abilities that Super Manga Goku has now, since that Goku now has Hakai, Mafuba, the God Bind, Illusions (which if they're anything like Moro's, can fool Instant Transmission), as well as the ability to heal himself, albeit slowly, over time, alongside other moves. Given how the God Bind was able to be adapted to and countered, he could feasibly nullify that, and given that GT Goku can sense Intent, he may be able to even figure out just how dangerous Hakai is, but other techniques like the illusions won't be possible for him to really get around.

So it's a power and stamina vs technique/hax and versatilty fight.

DBS Goku is unlikely to use hakai again, while GT Goku is more than willing to use dragon fist. Voting GT Goku via experience and AP advantage

And this match has already been done years ago. GT won against manga DBS Goku and pretty sure FPSSJ4 Goku thrashed TOP blue kaioken anime DBS Goku years ago with a massive AP stomp as well

 

[noninho]

DBS Goku is unlikely to use hakai again, while GT Goku is more than willing to use dragon fist. Voting GT Goku via experience and AP advantage

And this match has already been done years ago. GT won against manga DBS Goku and pretty sure FPSSJ4 Goku thrashed TOP blue kaioken anime DBS Goku years ago with a massive AP stomp as well

Well, manga goku has UI today, does that change anything?

But imma add myself to the Monkey voters, more due to the experience gap than anything

 

[TegamiBachi25]

Well, manga goku has UI today, does that change anything?

But imma add myself to the Monkey voters, more due to the experience gap than anything

it should also be noted that GT Goku has reactive evolution while DBS manga does not in comparison to his anime and alternative timeline furry counterpart. DBS manga Goku is going to seriously have a bad time once he recognizes most of his techniques are going to be resisted by his Monke self

 

[noninho]

While also bumping, I ask:

If I use manga's goku last key is it any different?

 

[GodOfThunder]

(his body can adapt to techniques to counter them after experiencing it once, and he was able to copy a Shadow Dragon's ability on sight, so perhaps better technique mimicry?)

just want to reply to this that this isn't really true seeing as Omega Shenron uses Nuova Shenron heat attack on ssj4 goku as well as the other shadow dragon attacks on him and they work just fine against him

and considering Goku has UI in combination with his other forms how exactly does ssj4 touch him with equal speeds? goku was equivalent to ssj vegeta when using UI in base

DBS Goku hakai should get the job done

 

[TegamiBachi25]

just want to reply to this that this isn't really true seeing as Omega Shenron uses Nuova Shenron heat attack on ssj4 goku as well as the other shadow dragon attacks on him and they work just fine against him

and considering Goku has UI in combination with his other forms how exactly does ssj4 touch him with equal speeds? goku was equivalent to ssj vegeta when using UI in base

DBS Goku hakai should get the job done

DBS Goku is unlikely to use hakai ever again. He literally stated he was unsure if he was capable of using such a technique.

 

[RedReaper]

just want to reply to this that this isn't really true seeing as Omega Shenron uses Nuova Shenron heat attack on ssj4 goku as well as the other shadow dragon attacks on him and they work just fine against him

No, they didn't. Omega Shenron tries them, taunting him about said move remembrance, and then after Goku takes them all, he's unaffected and reaffirms this is the case. This forces Omega to fight in H2H. It should also be noted that the attacks were more powerful than they were before, as well, as Omega's variants of all the techniques have more Negative Karma/Ki in them and amplifies them, and yet the techniques still did not work on him. Episode 59 of the Sub, about 7 minutes in.

and considering Goku has UI in combination with his other forms how exactly does ssj4 touch him with equal speeds? goku was equivalent to ssj vegeta when using UI in base

This IS true, though, with UI + Other Forms his ability to dodge is improved considerably, allowing him to evade a whole SSJ level of difference.

DBS Goku hakai should get the job done

Hakai would be able to get the job done, but it's OOC, and even then GT Goku can read intent and still instinctively evade. Not to mention with Instant Movement, he should be able to teleport out of the way regardless.

 

[noninho]

Bump

 

[GodOfThunder]

No, they didn't. Omega Shenron tries them, taunting him about said move remembrance, and then after Goku takes them all, he's unaffected and reaffirms this is the case.

Nuova shenron and all the other shadow dragon attacks still works against Goku after goku supposedly says that that very same attack wont have an effect on him lol

Hakai would be able to get the job done, but it's OOC, and even then GT Goku can read intent and still instinctively evade. Not to mention with Instant Movement, he should be able to teleport out of the way regardless.

read intent? there's nothing to read it's not like goku is charging up a ki attack or throwing a punch an incomplete version of Hakai was erasing half of Zamasu ssj4 goku isn't surviving with half of his body missing

@RedReaper

 

[RedReaper]

Nuova shenron and all the other shadow dragon attacks still works against Goku after goku supposedly says that that very same attack wont have an effect on him lol

Watch the Sub of this moment. When Goku says “You only tickled my feet” he says “You’re right, moves I experience don’t affect me because my body remembers.” Check 9-Anime.

read intent? there's nothing to read it's not like goku is charging up a ki attack or throwing a punch an incomplete version of Hakai was erasing half of Zamasu ssj4 goku isn't surviving with half of his body missing

@RedReaper

Beerus, Vegeta, and Toppo claimed that using Hakai was channeling Destructive Intent. Raw destructive will/mindset being channeled into an attack. The assumption being, that if this true, that Goku using his Imperfect Hakai would be the same and thus detectable.

 

[GodOfThunder]

Watch the Sub of this moment. When Goku says “You only tickled my feet” he says “You’re right, moves I experience don’t affect me because my body remembers.” Check 9-Anime.

i don;t need to watch it seeing as Goku visually gets burned and frozen in ice it could be on mute and anyone could understand what's happening

Beerus, Vegeta, and Toppo claimed that using Hakai was channeling Destructive Intent. Raw destructive will/mindset being channeled into an attack. The assumption being, that if this true, that Goku using his Imperfect Hakai would be the same and thus detectable.

This is nonsense if that is the case he shouldn't have been able to be touched by Omega at any point during the fight

Spoiler

Doesn't matter if it's "incomplete" ssj4 goku dies if half his body is gone and it's not an technique where it needs to make physical contact.Not too mention SSJ4 cannot sense God energy so he won't know of any destructive energy behind this attack

@RedReaper

 

[TegamiBachi25]

DBS manga Goku stated he wouldn’t use hakai ever again. Him not being bloodlusted in OP even makes this more in GT favor.

God ki means jack shit. Jiren pounded both versions of anime and manga without god ki and frieza survived hakai in the anime from assassins. Since GT has an AP advantage, this fight turns into anime DBS Goku vs jiren in their first confrontation. GT Goku also has reactive evolution and half the shit DBS manga Goku pulls out wouldn’t even work on him the second time or decreased effectiveness. The other one is a finishing move he never is going to use because he thinks it wont work for shit like beerus did while GT Goku was more than willing to use dragon fist.

 

[GodOfThunder]

DBS manga Goku stated he wouldn’t use hakai ever again.

this isn't true to my knowledge he just said he "messed up" when doing it

Spoiler

God ki means jack shit. Jiren pounded both versions of anime and manga without god ki and frieza survived hakai in the anime from assassins.

i never claimed god ki was an the determing factor i just was pointing out the other guy said he GT Goku could sense the danger from the hakai when he probably couldn't

Since GT has an AP advantage, this fight turns into anime DBS Goku vs jiren in their first confrontation.

Considering omega could only destroy the universe via chain reaction i highly doubt it

GT Goku also has reactive evolution and half the shit DBS manga Goku pulls out wouldn’t even work on him the second time or decreased effectiveness.

i already posted a video in another comment showing that the shadow dragons ability still work on GT Goku after he already said those same attacks wont work twice against him

The other one is a finishing move he never is going to use because he thinks it wont work for shit like beerus did while GT Goku was more than willing to use dragon fist.

again he never said it won't work he erased half of Zamasu GT Goku isn't living with half his body erased

 

[TegamiBachi25]

I mean. If this turns out to be an AP stomp for GT goku or Dbs manga Goku, then it should be closed. If it’s fair, then can we get the supporters here?

 

[RedReaper]

i don;t need to watch it seeing as Goku visually gets burned and frozen in ice it could be on mute and anyone could understand what's happening

He literally says it didn’t affect him, and we see no injuries in his body. This pisses off Omega and he goes for physical blows, SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE GTku was RIGHT. You DO need to check the episode.

This is nonsense if that is the case he shouldn't have been able to be touched by Omega at any point during the fight

He didn’t. Not as Syn, and even as Omega (where he becomes Goku’s superior) he only lands a few blows before GTku burns all his energy with a Kamehameha + Ryu-Ken and totally blows him apart.

Spoiler

Doesn't matter if it's "incomplete" ssj4 goku dies if half his body is gone and it's not an technique where it needs to make physical contact.Not too mention SSJ4 cannot sense God energy so he won't know of any destructive energy behind this attack

I’m not saying it’s incomplete is what makes it impossible. I’m saying the raw destructive intent necessary means GTku should sense it coming and allow him to evade.

 

[GodOfThunder]

He literally says it didn’t affect him, and we see no injuries in his body.

we literally see Goku blowing his hands because it's hot and Goku get frozen solid

This pisses off Omega and he goes for physical blows, SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE GTku was RIGHT. You DO need to check the episode.

again we see that his statements don't mean much when we see him blowing his hands and getting frozen

He didn’t. Not as Syn, and even as Omega (where he becomes Goku’s superior) he only lands a few blows before GTku burns all his energy with a Kamehameha + Ryu-Ken.

I’m not saying it’s incomplete is what makes it impossible. I’m saying the raw destructive intent necessary means GTku should sense it coming and allow him to evade.

Gt Goku wouldn't be able to sense the intent at all since he can't sense God ki, he's gonna stare right at it just like Zamasu since Dbs Goku is just putting a hand in his face

 

[RedReaper]

i never claimed god ki was an the determing factor i just was pointing out the other guy said he GT Goku could sense the danger from the hakai when he probably couldn't

It’s possible to sense intent even without God Ki. Goku literally does that to Beerus in like, Episode 6 of DBS.

Considering omega could only destroy the universe via chain reaction i highly doubt it

Omega scales above Toei Buuhan, Toei Kid Buu, Fusion Reborn Gogeta, Etc. who all blatantly have their own Low Multi feats equivalent to SSG BoG Goku, and then GT upscales that by 400x+ in base in the first episode. Then over the course of the series, has multiple Zenkai’s, gains a new form, and even ascends into a “Changs State.” He most CERTAINLY has the AP advantage over DBS Manga. (Not Anime, though, because they’re at 6U.)

i already posted a video in another comment showing that the shadow dragons ability still work on GT Goku after he already said those same attacks wont work twice against him

Already talked about this.

 

[RedReaper]

we literally see Goku blowing his hands because it's hot and Goku get frozen solid


again we see that his statements don't mean much when we see him blowing his hands and getting frozen

He also lacks injury. Which backs up his claim. Like, none of it affects him and he just gets up.

Gt Goku wouldn't be able to sense the intent at all since he can't sense God ki for all he knows he's gonna stare right at it just like Zamasu since Goku is just putting a hand in his face

Already talked about this.

 

[TegamiBachi25]

It’s possible to sense intent even without God Ki. Goku literally does that to Beerus in like, Episode 6 of DBS.

Omega scales above Toei Buuhan, Toei Kid Buu, Fusion Reborn Gogeta, Etc. who all blatantly have their own Low Multi feats equivalent to SSG BoG Goku, and then GT upscales that by 400x+ in base in the first episode. Then over the course of the series, has multiple Zenkai’s, gains a new form, and even ascends into a “Changs State.” He most CERTAINLY has the AP advantage over DBS Manga. (Not Anime, though, because they’re at 6U.)

Already talked about this.

How much times, because if it’s over, if I remember correctly, a 7.5 advantage, wouldn’t that be a stomp and this should be closed then?

 

[GodOfThunder]

It’s possible to sense intent even without God Ki. Goku literally does that to Beerus in like, Episode 6 of DBS.

Goku simply backed up in that instance it wouldn't matter if Gt Goku backs up this version of Hakai isn't a move that needs to make physical contact with you.

if he can sense you,you can be erased

Omega scales above Toei Buuhan, Toei Kid Buu, Fusion Reborn Gogeta,

Buuhan is another chain reaction feat via him shouting. All i remember is kid buu destroying a galaxy in the anime and fusion reborn could never happen in GT.The movie takes place in an alternate timeline where im assuming Goku beat buu after Vegeta dies and he doesn't get resurrected

Etc. who all blatantly have their own Low Multi feats equivalent to SSG BoG Goku, and then GT upscales that by 400x+ in base in the first episode. T

none of them have any multiversal feats. This is part of the problem ever since episode 12 of super happened GT suddenly everyone scales to multiversal when Omega the strongest villain in GT needs to destroy the universe planet by planet and bringing up the DBZ movies which cannot fit into 1 singular timeline

hen over the course of the series, has multiple Zenkai’s, gains a new form, and even ascends into a “Changs State.” He most CERTAINLY has the AP advantage over DBS Manga. (Not Anime, though, because they’re at 6U.)

I dont see how he has the AP adavantage at all youre using movie scaling which can't happen in GT and chain reaction feats

DBS goku clash with Beerus is quite literally a better feat than anything in GT

He also lacks injury. Which backs up his claim. Like, none of it affects him and he just gets up.

again it still hurts him he cries out in pain meaning that he isn't immune to it

 

[TegamiBachi25]

Goku simply backed up in that instance it wouldn't matter if Gt Goku backs up this version of Hakai isn't a move that needs to make physical contact with you.

if he can sense you,you can be erased

Buuhan is another chain reaction feat via him shouting. All i remember is kid buu destroying a galaxy in the anime and fusion reborn could never happen in GT.The movie takes place in an alternate timeline where im assuming Goku beat buu after Vegeta dies and he doesn't get resurrected


none of them have any multiversal feats. This is part of the problem ever since episode 12 of super happened GT suddenly everyone scales to multiversal when Omega the strongest villain in GT needs to destroy the universe planet by planet and bringing up the DBZ movies which cannot fit into 1 singular timeline


I dont see how he has the AP adavantage at all youre using movie scaling which can't happen in GT and chain reaction feats

DBS goku clash with Beerus is quite literally a better feat than anything in GT

again it still hurts him he cries out in pain meaning that he isn't immune to it

That’s how vs wiki did their scaling. Toei anime cell is galaxy and was stated to be a threat to the universe given the time while manga cell doesn’t have that statement at all and is just solar system

And the guides literally state that Fusion reborn toei gogeta is the same as GT gogeta. If you don’t think they’re the same or GT isn’t low 2C, make a CRT. This got accepted years ago for gogeta’s profiles both canon and toei versions and GT being upgraded to low 2C because buuhan vice shout opened up reality and all GT cast upscale from that same buuhan

 

[RedReaper]

How much times, because if it’s over, if I remember correctly, a 7.5 advantage, wouldn’t that be a stomp and this should be closed then?

That’s hard to quantify.

GTku is at bare minimum 400x+ in base, and then has at least SSJ3 (another 400x) on top. So 160,000x BoG level. Then Omega was “10x stronger” than Syn Shenron, and SFPSSJ4 (with Ryu-Ken) could beat him, so 1,600,000x.

DBS has the BoG feat, then RoF SSB is 50x, with U6vU7 there’s no quantitative increase, (as in DBS they shy away from multipliers), then there’s Black’s arc, which doesn’t really give numerical statements. You could try to guesstimate a value between the Zenkai’s of Black, and Goku’s PSSB being able to fight Fused Zamasu, but those power jumps, while vast, can’t be quantified. Then there’s the ToP, which Vegeta gets SSBE—Which is is the equivalent of SSB Kaioken, so let’s say 20x. (Goku as his equal should be as strong). Ultra Instinct is beyond a 20x jump, so we could use that as a bare minimum jumps Then we had Broly, Moro (which isn’t quantified), and then Granolah (which isn’t quantified). However, UI does make up a 50x difference in evasion.

50 x 20 x 20 x 50 (like mentioned before, there’s lots of power jumps, we just can’t quantify them, so this is the best we can do.) This puts DBS at 20,000x. The only way to get DBS above GT is via calc stacking via the Base Absorption argument and having SSG x SSG.

 

[GodOfThunder]

That’s how vs wiki did their scaling. Toei anime cell is multi galaxy and was stated to be a threat to the universe given the time

Galaxy level cell lol

And the guides literally state that Fusion reborn toei gogeta is the same as GT gogeta.

the movie itself contradicts the very thought of it being in the same timeline..Guides also said Goku surpassed Beerus back when the anime was still airing

If you don’t think they’re the same or GT isn’t low 2C, make a CRT. This got accepted years ago for gogeta’s profiles both canon and toei versions and GT being upgraded to low 2C because buuhan vice shout opened up reality and all GT cast upscale from that same buuhan

im in no mood to do a CRT that just sharing my thoughts on the subject

 

[CBslayeR]

the movie itself contradicts the very thought of it being in the same timeline..Guides also said Goku surpassed Beerus back when the anime was still airing

wait until you hear about the garlic jr saga being canon to the Z anime, the toei continuity makes zero sense in general but that doesn't stop everything from being canon to each other

also you're treating the manga and anime as the same continuity lol

 

[CBslayeR]

Goku simply backed up in that instance it wouldn't matter if Gt Goku backs up this version of Hakai isn't a move that needs to make physical contact with you.

if he can sense you,you can be erased

Buuhan is another chain reaction feat via him shouting. All i remember is kid buu destroying a galaxy in the anime and fusion reborn could never happen in GT.The movie takes place in an alternate timeline where im assuming Goku beat buu after Vegeta dies and he doesn't get resurrected


none of them have any multiversal feats. This is part of the problem ever since episode 12 of super happened GT suddenly everyone scales to multiversal when Omega the strongest villain in GT needs to destroy the universe planet by planet and bringing up the DBZ movies which cannot fit into 1 singular timeline


I dont see how he has the AP adavantage at all youre using movie scaling which can't happen in GT and chain reaction feats

DBS goku clash with Beerus is quite literally a better feat than anything in GT

again it still hurts him he cries out in pain meaning that he isn't immune to it

Goku would never use hakai in this fight, he's not gonna see a variant of himself that he can tell and sense isn't an evil person and decide to just permanently erase him, he's not a serial killer.


All of Buu's scans for low multi are on his page, and Gogeta is canon due to the Toei continuity treating every Z Movie as canon and references to them in GT. (Cooler appears in the Super 17 arc (who's movie is a direct sequel to Turles and Lord Slug), Vegeta knows the fusion dance and can perform it perfectly in one try despite literally never seeing it on screen outside of Fusion Reborn, which also happens to reference nearly every single previous Z movie in background characters, Garlic Jr has his own arc in the anime, and Goku knows the Dragon Fist.


I get why you're confused though, the continuity makes no sense and you kinda just have to ball with "This probably took place around here" It's just bad writing tbh


Also lol at the Omega Shenron feat being an overtime feat when it's literally his ki doing it, quit coping about GT being on par with DBS like it literally didn't take multiple years after the Beerus feat to get GT past 3-B

 

[noninho]

Bump

 

[Nierre]

If I haven't voted already GTku takes this very handily FRA

 

[noninho]

counted

 

[Mariogoods]

I vote to GT Goku FRA.

 

[noninho]

Well, then imma change keys to ToP and take off the restriction

Together with a bump I ask: what would happen should I put dbs goku in the last key?