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Battle of the DBS' Buff Bois - Broly vs Toppo
- Thread starter The_2nd_Existential_Seed
- Start date
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What you are basically saying is that Hakai and Time stop in DB sucks
My only question is that does this rule apply in vs fights between other verses with DB?
Since verse equal is a thing, absolutely.
My only question is that does this rule apply in vs fights between other verses with DB?
Since verse equal is a thing, absolutely.
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Broly FRA
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are we gonna update the original post with the current votes?
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Apparently no, at this rate this battle will never finish and even if it does, it will never be added.Yellowpig10 said:
My vote was for Broly.
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Yeah, I'm voting for Broly. I mean it's pretty undeniable when Frieza himself outright states that the damage he took from Broly was proof that no one in 'existence' can beat him. The same Frieza who got curbstomped in under a minute by GoD Toppo...
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To be fair, Frieza can't sense God Ki, or at least he can't sense Hakai energy. If he could, he wouldn't have f*cked up so badly against ToppoCryoTheMayo said:
So that statement shouldn't apply to GoDs at least
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yeah but he could sense jiren who is stronger then toppoMickey1940 said:
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eh tru
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but aren't there guides that still say Frieza < Beerus?
I'm not supporting Toppo in this thread, I'm just asking
I'm not supporting Toppo in this thread, I'm just asking
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- Thread starter
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@Mickey
Current Frieza : Unknown.... Pretty sure there is no statements indicating Current Frieza is < Beerus ?.
Frieza from RoF: Yes. Quite a lot of them
Current Frieza : Unknown.... Pretty sure there is no statements indicating Current Frieza is < Beerus ?.
Frieza from RoF: Yes. Quite a lot of them
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Here's the interview statement that implied Beerus is still stronger than Broly Saga Frieza. In case people want to know where the statement is from. https://mobile.twitter.com/Herms98/status/1025905720556810240
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- Thread starter
- #213
Ehh... It's saying from Frieza's point of view he doesn't know how he can beat Beerus (Which is consistent considering he doesn't know Beerus' Full Strength) . It doesn't literally state he is weaker than Beerus (not doubting he isn't though) , so I don't think we should use such a vague implication.
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He compared his Golden form to Goku Blue based on their energy output. It seems like he can sense God Ki like Hit based on his statement...even if not he can accurately gauge a God Ki users power based on physically feeling their energy.Mickey1940 said:
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that's still not the same as sensing God ki. If Saitama fought Goku, for example, he would not be able to sense him, but after Goku throws the first punch he could compare his power to his own in however way he wants. Goku, on the other hand, could sense Saitama's energy and formulate a conclusion on his power level before any of them even start fighting
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This is what he says. He specifically, outright, says that he can FEEL his energy. Which is how ki sensing is usually referred to within the franchise. Hit also senses Goku's God Ki which shows that this isn't just some one-time throwaway line.
There is no reason for me to not believe Frieza can't sense Goku's Blue form. There is more reason to believe in the contrary.
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cause UIO doesn't use God KiJackJoyce said:
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You would THINK Piccolo could sense God Ki due to having Kami merged with him...seeing as Dende can sense God Ki due to being Guardian of the Earth.
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Piccolo has sensed Shin beforeCryoTheMayo said:
and Shin uses God ki, right?
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Relatively certain, yes. So don't ask me why he apparently struggles to sense God Ki.
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Toppo hakais fra
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Super Saiyan (Full Power) Broly has a huge AP adventage, but that isn't saving him from Toppo's Hakai. So I vote for Toppo.
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Broly FRA.
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wait
Toppo can still touch and not Hakai beings even with his Hakai shroud
so wouldn'y Broly still be able to touch/kill him?
Plus Toppo's Hakai was overwhelmed by Vegeta's raw power alone, something Broly has more than enough of
So what's stopping Broly from 1 punching him
Toppo can still touch and not Hakai beings even with his Hakai shroud
so wouldn'y Broly still be able to touch/kill him?
Plus Toppo's Hakai was overwhelmed by Vegeta's raw power alone, something Broly has more than enough of
So what's stopping Broly from 1 punching him
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cs57e-viIKwMickey1940 said:
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I would vote for Toppo with Hakai since Broly hasn't displayed resistances to such an ability yet.
Wokistan
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Again its just the whole "hard feats vs narrative intent" debate again.
Would Broly win if this fight ever happened in verse? Of course. However due to how the site works he doesn't have an assumed resistance to EE (though I don't see why that stops him from just shooting near toppo since toppo is clearly not erasing kinetic energy) and gets ****** by that.
The fight hinges on a core point of contention of all of vs debating, but exacerbated by Dragon Ball pulling the whole "hax resistance via raw strength" thing.
Would Broly win if this fight ever happened in verse? Of course. However due to how the site works he doesn't have an assumed resistance to EE (though I don't see why that stops him from just shooting near toppo since toppo is clearly not erasing kinetic energy) and gets ****** by that.
The fight hinges on a core point of contention of all of vs debating, but exacerbated by Dragon Ball pulling the whole "hax resistance via raw strength" thing.
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Toppo hasn't displayed the ability to Hakai someone like Broly. The opposite. SSBE Vegeta was too powerful for Toppo's Hakai to work on him. And Hakai has never been stated or shown a single time to work on more powerful opponents. The fact that the Gods of Destruction are completely helpless against the angels and Zeno kinda proves that it doesn't as well.IMadeThisOn8-1-2017 said:
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There are no hard feats for your position at all. Hakai has has zero feats of working on a stronger opponent. Hakai has anti-feats of failing to work on stronger opponents. People with Hakai are still helpless servants to those stronger than them.Wokistan said:
We shouldn't be creating headcanons to a series just to force its narrative to follow a foreign fan wiki's guidelines.
Also the idea that Goku, Frieza and Vegeta just so happen to randomly and inexplicably be the only 3 beings in all of existence who have some unmentioned magical innate resistance unrelated to their power that allows them to negate Hakai, and that for some reason Toppo was considered Jiren's second fiddle even though Toppo had an attack that could've slayed him, all the GoDs, all the angels, the Zenos and everyone in the multiverse except these arbitrary 3 people is far, far more assumptive than just the idea that Toppo's Hakai isn't as amazing as you insist it is.
Read my huge essay some posts above for more elaboration on all of this.
Wokistan
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It's more a site policy thing that I'm referring to. Personally I don't really think the resistance is all that important because of the whole "pressure wave due to explosion GG" since if Toppo erased forces like that he'd logically have to fall through the floor as well.
Anyone who fights him that the writer wants to not die would end up getting some resistance. We just don't assume resistances for narrative reasons for any of the other verses (even when it would be applicable, like in comics and stuff) and don't seem to be making an exception for dragon ball. As such as of now to remain consistent with everything else one either needs to get a note on everyone's file that it's weird EE that doesn't negate durability or assume it to.
Don't really care what we do about that personally, but one of those would need to be done since I don't think people are going to go for letting people have resistances because they probably wouldn't lose due to the plot.
Anyone who fights him that the writer wants to not die would end up getting some resistance. We just don't assume resistances for narrative reasons for any of the other verses (even when it would be applicable, like in comics and stuff) and don't seem to be making an exception for dragon ball. As such as of now to remain consistent with everything else one either needs to get a note on everyone's file that it's weird EE that doesn't negate durability or assume it to.
Don't really care what we do about that personally, but one of those would need to be done since I don't think people are going to go for letting people have resistances because they probably wouldn't lose due to the plot.
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You assume Hakai works on stronger opponents in the first place.
You assume Toppo has some godly ability to slaughter all of the gods in the multiverse. (Even if they try to blitz and one shot since he has a passive barrier that gets rid of all attacks and energy that touches it)
You assume that for some reason even though Toppo had this ability he was merely treated as the second fiddle to Jiren when all he had was the ability to defeat a God of Destruction.
You assume that Gods of Destruction are the helpless servants of the angels and Zeno despite being able to kill them for some reason.
You assume that the idea of a magical innate resistance unrelated to power that only Frieza and 2 random saiyans inexplicably have is an actual thing in the series.
Your position is filled with nothing but assumption after assumption, but then when someone suggests "Hey maybe Toppo's ability isn't so ridiculously powerful" then you're going "We can't make such a huge assumption".
Also you're adding all these new mechanics and elements of the story that obviously don't exist in the canon just to abide by a foreign fan wiki's guidelines. As if DB canon at all cares about a foreign fan wiki's guidelines. But the worst part is you do this so you can preserve a NLF that Toppo's Hakai works on pretty much everyone no matter how powerful. Most of the time when VS debates discard narrative it's to prevent NLF not to uphold it.
Like I said, just read this.
You assume Toppo has some godly ability to slaughter all of the gods in the multiverse. (Even if they try to blitz and one shot since he has a passive barrier that gets rid of all attacks and energy that touches it)
You assume that for some reason even though Toppo had this ability he was merely treated as the second fiddle to Jiren when all he had was the ability to defeat a God of Destruction.
You assume that Gods of Destruction are the helpless servants of the angels and Zeno despite being able to kill them for some reason.
You assume that the idea of a magical innate resistance unrelated to power that only Frieza and 2 random saiyans inexplicably have is an actual thing in the series.
Your position is filled with nothing but assumption after assumption, but then when someone suggests "Hey maybe Toppo's ability isn't so ridiculously powerful" then you're going "We can't make such a huge assumption".
Also you're adding all these new mechanics and elements of the story that obviously don't exist in the canon just to abide by a foreign fan wiki's guidelines. As if DB canon at all cares about a foreign fan wiki's guidelines. But the worst part is you do this so you can preserve a NLF that Toppo's Hakai works on pretty much everyone no matter how powerful. Most of the time when VS debates discard narrative it's to prevent NLF not to uphold it.
Like I said, just read this.
Wokistan
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Not so much "we can't make a huge assumption" as "We can't treat dragon ball completely differently from every other verse on the site on the whims of a vs thread".
These characters quite obviously would get resistances if it was ever relevant. They obviously would not lose when taking narrative into question. However, this site seems to prioritize what actually happens far more than narrative intent, as seen by how we use calcs for so much, eschew WOG in favor of direct depictions, and don't scale resistances like this.
I don't really care if someone gets it accepted that Haki just doesn't negate durability. There's evidence for that position for sure. What I am saying is that until it gets accepted, the way we consider dragon ball's abilities needs to be consistent with how we consider every other characters.
That being said Broly wins either way because Toppo never erased the pressure wave of an explosion going off sorta near him and Broly's AP is waaay higher than his durability.
These characters quite obviously would get resistances if it was ever relevant. They obviously would not lose when taking narrative into question. However, this site seems to prioritize what actually happens far more than narrative intent, as seen by how we use calcs for so much, eschew WOG in favor of direct depictions, and don't scale resistances like this.
I don't really care if someone gets it accepted that Haki just doesn't negate durability. There's evidence for that position for sure. What I am saying is that until it gets accepted, the way we consider dragon ball's abilities needs to be consistent with how we consider every other characters.
That being said Broly wins either way because Toppo never erased the pressure wave of an explosion going off sorta near him and Broly's AP is waaay higher than his durability.
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Again
Again have you read this? I explain everything here far better. The former position relies on FAR more assumptions and is wanking characters much worse than the latter position.
"However, this site seems to prioritize what actually happens far more than narrative intent"
No it doesn't. It won't accept when someone being too powerful for Hakai to work happened. And it holds on to the assumption Hakai works on stronger opponents in the first place when an instance of this has never happened.
- Hakai is never stated or shown a single time to work on stronger opponents.
- We see Hakai fail to work on a stronger opponent.
- Someone with Hakai is treated as the second fiddle to a guy who's just strong enough to beat a God of Destruction.
- Characters with Hakai are still the helpless servants of those stronger than them.
Again have you read this? I explain everything here far better. The former position relies on FAR more assumptions and is wanking characters much worse than the latter position.
"However, this site seems to prioritize what actually happens far more than narrative intent"
No it doesn't. It won't accept when someone being too powerful for Hakai to work happened. And it holds on to the assumption Hakai works on stronger opponents in the first place when an instance of this has never happened.
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You can't destroy something that's beyond your own energy capacity. Is that not a reasonable and logical stance to take?
Wokistan
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Existence Erasure isn't really a normal attack. The default assumption with it is that it bypasses durability. However dragon ball quite clearly does things differently with regards to this ability.
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That does make sense, for it to not be 'normal' but wouldn't you still need to have the energy capacity to destroy something? I'm struggling to see how Toppo is meant to erase Broly's own energy...we even see that Vegeta was forced to use Final Explosion to surpass the power, the capacity, of Toppo's strongest Hakai sphere which Broly can easily imitate.
Wokistan
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Oh no I agree that the dragon ball EE doesn't bypass dura, besides something like Zeno.
I mean that in general it's not assumed to be tied to durability. FOr example we got a Gorgo which can EE things by deciding they're not real. There's not really a reason that being strong would make it forced to accept that you're real or whatever.
I mean that in general it's not assumed to be tied to durability. FOr example we got a Gorgo which can EE things by deciding they're not real. There's not really a reason that being strong would make it forced to accept that you're real or whatever.
