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Battle for 6th Strongest 2-C Non-Smurf (Reimu Hakurei vs KR Saber)

I'll start by explaining why I think Reimu wins. She has layered (5+ layers) passive probability hax which bypass type 4 acausality, which works by making her impossible to hit and by tilting victory in her favor. Basically, if she can win, she will. From this, she'd probably start with Fantasy Nature, which is thought-based 2-B spatial intangibility that Saber cannot bypass. Honestly, at that point she can do whatever; Make him give up by draining his spirit/stamina, seal him, use her thought based summoning to instantly kill him, paralyze him, or just gradually beat his ass down with a huge stamina advantage (3+ days tracking youkai across Gensokyo without sleep vs fighting for hours at a time and shrugging off wounds). Even if she somehow doesn't lead with all of this, she does typically lead with illusions/perception manipulation, which Saber does not resist, so he'd be unable to track her while she has free reign to do whatever she wants (which is typically sealing, seeing as how most of her attacks do that... or just transmutation off of any ofuda hit with danmaku spam).

Saber does have hax that can kill or incap Reimu, but her passives make it so they're just... not going to happen before she yeets herself out of reality.
 
I literally explained what her passives do lol

Does Saber actually open with his plot hax? And are they thought-based or passive? If the answer to either of those is no, then Reimu just wins.
 
Robo432343 said:
yuh they dont insta kill
so he can go plot hax gg to save the game
Click to expand...
And how will he do that when Reimu 1. has victory tilted in her favor via probability hax, and 2. can become completely immune to all of Saber's hax at will?

Also like, do you have evidence of it being thought based? Reimu's FN is an extension of her state of mind so that's pretty easy. Scans of him opening with it would be nice as well.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
And how will he do that when Reimu 1. has victory tilted in her favor via probability hax
Click to expand...
coz plot hax>probability hax or it stops him from losing unless the probability hax has been shown to neg plot hax
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
, and 2. can become completely immune to all of Saber's hax at will?
Click to expand...
no way shes becoming immune to plot hax
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Also like, do you have evidence of it being thought based? Reimu's FN is an extension of her state of mind so that's pretty easy. Scans of him opening with it would be nice as well.
Click to expand...
idek what that means but some supporter probably has it
 
Robo432343 said:
coz plot hax>probability hax or it stops him from losing unless the probability hax has been shown to neg plot hax
Click to expand...
...Which doesn't even matter because the probability hax are always coming first. KR having thought-based hax is NOT outspeeding passive hax.

Robo432343 said:
no way shes becoming immune to plot hax
Click to expand...
She doesn't have to. Saber just straight up does not have the range to affect her in this state.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
And how will he do that when Reimu 1. has victory tilted in her favor via probability hax, and 2. can become completely immune to all of Saber's hax at will?

Also like, do you have evidence of it being thought based? Reimu's FN is an extension of her state of mind so that's pretty easy. Scans of him opening with it would be nice as well.
Click to expand...
For the first part, how does it work? Cause the way you describe it makes it seems like it just makes her hard to hit and gives her victory ensured. For the second one, is it like, through an ability or something? Cause if so, would she do it as a leading move, cause you said her leading move is the perception manip.

Actually, looking back on the clip it’s pretty ambiguous on how he actually uses his plot Hax. He kinda just, does it. Here’s the clip.

So, a bit of context, the entire world is destroyed and it’s concepts (Time, Void, Reality, Probabilities). The way they are created is through stories and ideas. With the powers of Wonder Almighty, Saber is capable of creating stories and restoring concepts. This also extends to people, as their own life would be written out as a Wonder Book for Saber to rewrite.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
...Which doesn't even matter because the probability hax are always coming first. KR having thought-based hax is NOT outspeeding passive hax.
Click to expand...
the probability hax makes her impossible to hit yeah? thing is sabers plot hax is thought based so he doesn't need to hit her and its not insta kill so saber has just enough time to use it
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
She doesn't have to. Saber just straight up does not have the range to affect her in this state.
Click to expand...
so uh thought based plot hax vs thought based 2-B spatial intangibility makes it incon??
 
Robo432343 said:
the probability hax makes her impossible to hit yeah? thing is sabers plot hax is thought based so he doesn't need to hit her
Click to expand...
Passive speed probability hax pretty much means that the fight is rigged in her favor and increases the chances of her victory route happening, which also affects the odds of Saber doing plot hax as an opening move, which leads into...
Robo432343 said:
so uh thought based plot hax vs thought based 2-B spatial intangibility makes it incon??
Click to expand...
The fact that Reimu gets things tipped in her favor means that by the time Saber attempts plot hax, Reimu will already be floating out of the range of his abilities, totally unaffected.
 
Robo432343 said:
the probability hax makes her impossible to hit yeah? thing is sabers plot hax is thought based so he doesn't need to hit her and its not insta kill so saber has just enough time to use it
Click to expand...
So you're telling me Saber is going to have enough time, skipping straight to plot hax before going through all 20 of his forms in true tokusatsu fashion?

Reimu doesn't even have that kind of patience at all.
 
Wonder Guardian doesn’t have his 20+ forms, it’s just that one form. The only thing that Touma does as the Wonder Guardian is plot hax
 
OverlordDonnelly said:
Passive speed probability hax pretty much means that the fight is rigged in her favor and increases the chances of her victory route happening, which also affects the odds of Saber doing plot hax as an opening move,
Click to expand...
its not like its completely stopping saber from using plot hax unless you can show me her probability hax negging plot hax
OverlordDonnelly said:
which leads into...
Click to expand...
into what
OverlordDonnelly said:
The fact that Reimu gets things tipped in her favor means that by the time Saber attempts plot hax, Reimu will already be floating out of the range of his abilities, totally unaffected.
Click to expand...
yuh she just has a higher chance of winning, its not insta win tho
if her probability hax is insta kill then saber wouldn't have time to use thought based plot hax and its gg
 
BERRIES555 said:
For the first part, how does it work? Cause the way you describe it makes it seems like it just makes her hard to hit and gives her victory ensured. For the second one, is it like, through an ability or something? Cause if so, would she do it as a leading move, cause you said her leading move is the perception manip.
Click to expand...
Basically, Reimu has the ability to float, which is not only flight, but a state of mind. Typically just a general disposition towards life where she acts without a care in the world, but Fantasy Nature takes it to the next level by having her "float" outside of reality itself. Yeah, it says "all sorts of things", but that translation is incorrect and it more likely means "everything that exists". This is supported by how characters who are said to have control over all of reality cannot interact with her in this state.

I only said it's her leading move because it's the most likely way she'll win, so the probability hax will tilt her towards using it. Like I said, if she can win, she will.

BERRIES555 said:
So, a bit of context, the entire world is destroyed and it’s concepts (Time, Void, Reality, Probabilities). The way they are created is through stories and ideas. With the powers of Wonder Almighty, Saber is capable of creating stories and restoring concepts. This also extends to people, as their own life would be written out as a Wonder Book for Saber to rewrite.
Click to expand...
I'm gonna keep it real with you, this does not imply thought-based hax at all lol

Robo432343 said:
so uh thought based plot hax vs thought based 2-B spatial intangibility makes it incon??
Click to expand...
No, because Reimu has wincons after she uses her spatial intang, and her probability hax means she'll be more likely to use her intangibility before Saber uses his plothax.

BERRIES555 said:
Wonder Guardian doesn’t have his 20+ forms, it’s just that one form. The only thing that Touma does as the Wonder Guardian is plot hax
Click to expand...
I can kinda see the logic here, but he does have access to his civilian form/base form abilities, no?

Robo432343 said:
yuh she just has a higher chance of winning, its not insta win tho
if her probability hax is insta kill then saber wouldn't have time to use thought based plot hax and its gg
Click to expand...
They can both instawin with thought-based hax, so it's a 50/50, which means that if Reimu passively improves her odds of winning (which she does)... Well, I'll let you do the math.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
They can both instawin with thought-based hax, so it's a 50/50, which means that if Reimu passively improves her odds of winning (which she does)... Well, I'll let you do the math.
Click to expand...
thats where things go wrong coz plot hax destroys probability hax by default
if it was status effect inducement or something that was being used then reimu would be allowed to improve her odds of winning and just crush
but thats not the case
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
I'm gonna keep it real with you, this does not imply thought-based hax at all lol



I can kinda see the logic here, but he does have access to his civilian form/base form abilities, no?
Click to expand...
At the very end, Touma says “We need to bring everyone back,” or something along those lines. We then see the Wonder Book glow and then immediately everyone comes back, this includes their Wonder Books which contain concepts. I think that’s thought-based imo, at the very least speech-based.

While yes, Touma does has access to all his civilian abilities, he ONLY does plot hax. Plot hax is quite literally the only thing he does as the Wonder Guardian.
 
BERRIES555 said:
At the very end, Touma says “We need to bring everyone back,” or something along those lines. We then see the Wonder Book glow and then immediately everyone comes back, this includes their Wonder Books which contain concepts. I think that’s thought-based imo, at the very least speech-based.

While yes, Touma does has access to all his civilian abilities, he ONLY does plot hax. Plot hax is quite literally the only thing he does as the Wonder Guardian.
Click to expand...
I feel like that's taking minimal context and extrapolating waaaaay too much from it. I don't think there's enough there to say that he thinks and the world bends to his will.

Also like, does he ever enter Wonder Guardian form again? Because if the only time he uses his plot hax is after everyone has been erased from existence, it feels like a massive reach to say he'd use it in a 1-on-1 against someone he's never met before. Might just be the consequence of having a form with not a lot of screentime, idk.

Robo432343 said:
thats where things go wrong coz plot hax destroys probability hax by default
if it was status effect inducement or something that was being used then reimu would be allowed to improve her odds of winning and just crush
but thats not the case
Click to expand...
What?
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
I feel like that's taking minimal context and extrapolating waaaaay too much from it. I don't think there's enough there to say that he thinks and the world bends to his will.

Also like, does he ever enter Wonder Guardian form again? Because if the only time he uses his plot hax is after everyone has been erased from existence, it feels like a massive reach to say he'd use it in a 1-on-1 against someone he's never met before. Might just be the consequence of having a form with not a lot of screentime, idk.
Click to expand...
Well I mean, what do you expect. All we got were 5 minutes of screen time and a time skip lol. i also don’t know what else could this be classed under. Cause speech-based I get but he only says to bring people back, not the books. He’s not doing a physical action, so it can’t be that. So I’d assume it’s thought-based, no?

I kid you not, after leaving the Wonder World, he doesn’t access this again. He doesn’t even bring the Wonder Almighty Book with him either. So yeah, literally 5 minutes of screen time.
 
Quibster said:
There's no basis for that with the context presented out here. Saber's plothax isn't of a range to affect Reimu once she starts floating outside of reality.
Click to expand...
Floating has her outside of reality right. Touma could affect the wonder books which are what makes up things like Time, space, Void, etc, etc. Shouldn’t that allow him to effect someone outside of reality as he’s able to effect things that make up reality?
 
BERRIES555 said:
Floating has her outside of reality right. Touma could affect the wonder books which are what makes up things like Time, space, Void, etc, etc. Shouldn’t that allow him to effect someone outside of reality as he’s able to effect things that make up reality?
Click to expand...
no, thats just conceptual 2-C plot hax range
 
If the situation was what specifically prompted Saber to use plothax, but nothing Reimu does causes a similar situation to happen, then wouldn't Saber's default opening moves as a character take precedence here over "this form used plot hax in its only appearance, therefore plothax."

That's just my opinion though. My vote goes to Reimu because her passive hax kind of screw over Saber here.
 
BERRIES555 said:
Floating has her outside of reality right. Touma could affect the wonder books which are what makes up things like Time, space, Void, etc, etc. Shouldn’t that allow him to effect someone outside of reality as he’s able to effect things that make up reality?
Click to expand...
No, Reimu's intangibility has 2-B range. Saber has 2-C range at best.

BERRIES555 said:
Well I mean, what do you expect. All we got were 5 minutes of screen time and a time skip lol. i also don’t know what else could this be classed under. Cause speech-based I get but he only says to bring people back, not the books. He’s not doing a physical action, so it can’t be that. So I’d assume it’s thought-based, no?

I kid you not, after leaving the Wonder World, he doesn’t access this again. He doesn’t even bring the Wonder Almighty Book with him either. So yeah, literally 5 minutes of screen time.
Click to expand...
Yeah I'm with Donnelly on this, doesn't seem like something he'd just bust out on a whim.
 
I see what you two mean, my only problem with that is the fact he doesn’t have any of his rider abilities, he doesn’t have Rekka so he doesn’t have any offensive abilities either. He only has the abilities he innately has like his perception and precog. The only way he would has access to his Rider and Rekka abilities is if he rewrite his story to have him get those abilities. The only way to do that, would be through his haxes.
 
BERRIES555 said:
I see what you two mean, my only problem with that is the fact he doesn’t have any of his rider abilities, he doesn’t have Rekka so he doesn’t have any offensive abilities either. He only has the abilities he innately has like his perception and precog. The only way he would has access to his Rider and Rekka abilities is if he rewrite his story to have him get those abilities. The only way to do that, would be through his haxes.
Click to expand...
His profile says he has his base form rider abilities, though?

Robo432343 said:
does reimu resist conceptual fate hax? if its just regular resistance then uh
Click to expand...
Nah, but this is a fight where they kinda need to be passive or Reimu still wins.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
His profile says he has his base form rider abilities, though?
Click to expand...
That’s because the Wonder Almighty was able to give Touma his rider powers before. The only problem is that he’ll need Rekka (His Sword) to access them and at the first shot, he see that the only thing Touma has is Wonder Almighty. Touma does have to power to give himself his rider powers but it’ll be through his haxes and not by what he’s normally go to, which is Rekka.
 
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