Ordinary Magician vs Keyblade Wielder [Marisa Kirisame vs Sora: Battle for Most Skilled on the Wiki || GRACE]

[Nehz_XZX]

Hey Mad, do you know of SuperBearNeo and Juggs?

This seems off-topic. If you have something like that to discuss with someone directly, you should try messaging them directly instead of bringing that up in a thread.

Feats of dodging rain occur in canon from time to time to show how impossibly fast or impossibly skilled people are at dodging. An infamous example is Archie Sonic managing to run through a rainstorm, dodge every drop of rain in it and come out completely dry. Dante and Vergil in DMC also have an infamous feat of cutting every drop of rain in a large radius surrounding them. Physically possible? No. But still a feat of skill nonetheless.

a large part of Marisa’s character is her being a human and managing to stand alongside these powerful youkai and gods and through sheer skill and effort. Making the impossible possible, and that can be seen with a lot of feats she rather casually performs. It’s a narrative intent thing here, I feel.

The impossible part makes it unusable for skill feats for our purposes. No one is actually denying that it is portrayed as a skill thing, we just can't quantify it as one since there is no proper methodology for achieving this that can even remotely be described as skill on a logical level. Dante and Vergil cutting every rain drop seems achievable with enough speed and precision to me though I don't know much about that.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

I'm back, everyone.

Anyways...


And... as expected, you relied on the spell card stuff.

Well, I have news for you, they were retconned on this regard (not as a whole, before you nitpick) and so can't be used for skill purposes.

Nowadays they aren't even an object per-say, but rather just characters having the formality to call their attacks before doing them, and fancy visual effects.
Meaning that using them to argue skill in general seems rather inappropiate as they aren't accurate to the character's capabilities after the retcon.

I’m going to let Fuji handle the rest of this post since she seems intent to, but I’m absolutely lost here by what this point is supposed to be. “Spell Cards are no longer physical, therefore they cannot be used for skill?” Excuse me?

Spell Cards are now just terms to represent a type of attack or magical spell that a character defines with a name. There is still skill involved with dodging these attacks and what these attacks entail. Is suddenly none of Sora’s skill feats matter because he’s only dodging some guys magic that he summons now?

if anything, shouldn’t this retcon help out Marisa’s skill more than it hurts it? Spell Cards are no longer a physical item she can study, she has to judge it all by eye. Her copying and improving spell cards has to be done by observing someone’s spell and then perfectly replicating it. Creating a spell card now involves conceptually bringing it into being by giving it a name. That all seems far more impressive than what it was before?

I’m not sure what your intention was here with this feat, I’m a little lost.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I’m going to let Fuji handle the rest of this post since she seems intent to, but I’m absolutely lost here by what this point is supposed to be. “Spell Cards are no longer physical, therefore they cannot be used for skill?” Excuse me?

Spell Cards are now just terms to represent a type of attack or magical spell that a character defines with a name. There is still skill involved with dodging these attacks and what these attacks entail. Is suddenly none of Sora’s skill feats matter because he’s only dodging some guys magic that he summons now?

if anything, shouldn’t this retcon help out Marisa’s skill more than it hurts it? Spell Cards are no longer a physical item she can study, she has to judge it all by eye. Her copying and improving spell cards has to be done by observing someone’s spell and then perfectly replicating it. Creating a spell card now involves conceptually bringing it into being by giving it a name. That all seems far more impressive than what it was before?

I’m not sure what your intention was here with this feat, I’m a little lost.

ermmm i already responded to the post you baka

This is a much better breakdown of this point though, it's just... so baffling to me.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

This seems off-topic. If you have something like that to discuss with someone directly, you should try messaging them directly instead of bringing that up in a thread.


The impossible part makes it unusable for skill feats for our purposes. No one is actually denying that it is portrayed as a skill thing, we just can't quantify it as one since there is no proper methodology for achieving this that can even remotely be described as skill on a logical level. Dante and Vergil cutting every rain drop seems achievable with enough speed and precision to me.

I feel like “performing feats of physical impossibilities” seems like something that can be reasonably classified. There’s no proper methodology for achieving half the things on this wiki on a logical level from speed to strength.

obviously there has to be a limitation when it comes to skill feats but I don’t see the issue with this one or these types of feat, especially when they’re an explicit thing used to showcase skill in canon, and there’s no way it could have been done outside of physical skill and movemwnt

 

[Dragonite007]

Marisa fra

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

You certainly seemed to do that for at least the skill-related parts of Kingdom Hearts which is what was being discussed for the verse in this thread. The possibility of a downgrade depends on whether or not it would even be justified and the only way I see that happening is if something is wrong with our understanding of the cosmology and the scaling. There is more room for interpretation for the abilities but there tend to be some connections to the cosmology and scaling as well, so I wouldn't count on it.

That's how it sometimes is I guess.

unfortunately Touhou getting targeted because someone felt slighted by it is a commonality on this wiki. As Fuji mentioned we’ve routinely had people come after it either because Fuji downgraded a verse randomly that she had issues with or just because someone got slighted by Touhou winning a versus thread. We’ve had progress on the verse halted for several months over it, and frankly it’s sorta killed a lot of peoples interested in the wiki. We’re used to it happening by now, unfortunately.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I feel like “performing feats of physical impossibilities” seems like something that can be reasonably classified. There’s no proper methodology for achieving half the things on this wiki on a logical level from speed to strength.

obviously there has to be a limitation when it comes to skill feats but I don’t see the issue with this one or these types of feat, especially when they’re an explicit thing used to showcase skill in canon, and there’s no way it could have been done outside of physical skill and movemwnt

Trying to apply a logical classification to something that inherently breaks logic seems illogical to me. Intent and portrayal doesn't change anything about how much sense it actually makes. Things like speed and strength can work in fiction if certain laws are bypassed or ignored but this whole dodging rain through skill thing has inherent logical contradictions that are present through things like what rain and skill are and it's obvious that neither of these things have aspects that are being ignored aside from the impossibility of the feat.

 

[azontr]

Well, that's 7 votes. Marisa is officially in the running to take Sora's spot.

I would wait the normal VS thread grace period just to be fair, in case Bob or anyone else perhaps has more arguments, but after that I'm putting Marisa in Sora's spot (and of course moving Sora down, he's not being kicked off the list or anything).

 

[Nehz_XZX]

unfortunately Touhou getting targeted because someone felt slighted by it is a commonality on this wiki. As Fuji mentioned we’ve routinely had people come after it either because Fuji downgraded a verse randomly that she had issues with or just because someone got slighted by Touhou winning a versus thread. We’ve had progress on the verse halted for several months over it, and frankly it’s sorta killed a lot of peoples interested in the wiki. We’re used to it happening by now, unfortunately.

I know of verses where progress can be slow as well and there are times where profiles need some serious updates that can drag on.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Marisa Fra.
The only feat i think i don't fully put my faith on the Youmu one, but the rest looks fine.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

So, this means I have to tango with Fuji now instead of Bob if/when I get my lazy ass to bring the DMC shit without the "controversial" parts?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

So, this means I have to tango with Fuji now instead of Bob if/when I get my lazy ass to bring the DMC shit without the "controversial" parts?

You're welcome to forfeit in advance, if you'd like.

 

[azontr]

"controversial"

You think to highly of yourself.

 

[Robo432343]

You think to highly of yourself.

*too

 

[azontr]

Mods, crush his skull, thank you.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

You don't think too highly enough of yourself.

FTFY

You're welcome to forfeit in advance, if you'd like.

you make it easier than Bob tbh

 

[Bobsican]

Will reply later.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Will reply later.

I think you should do a Rematch thread, because this one is pratically done already.

 

[Bobsican]

Am I allowed to do thar? Grace period hasn't ended yet

 

[Fezzih_007]

Am I allowed to do thar? Grace period hasn't ended yet

Well, when the grace ends, you can.
I don't think there's any more value to discuss here.

 

[azontr]

Once grace ends a rematch can be made if you guys wanna go through that whole thing again. No skin off my back.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Mods, crush his skull, thank you.

my pleasure

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I think you should do a Rematch thread, because this one is pratically done already.

Please god have mercy.

 

[Deidalius]

A rematch thread is redundant.
Rematch threads in my opinion should only be done if someone gets new stuff that might change the fight or if their scaling meta in VSBW has change. Doing it so soon seems pointless.
Y'all are squeezing the life (Like an orange) out of all these poor Touhou wankers ;p

 

[Bobsican]

I mean, I did say I'd be making a reply.

I'll have to be even more exhaustive this time from the look of things either way.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Can I ask something beforehand? Do you still believe Touhou danmaku is 2D and characters can't fly vertically?

 

[Bobsican]

No to the former, for the latter the problem is more so how much they can fly vertically.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

No to the former, for the latter the problem is more so how much they can fly vertically.

Characters have literally reached above the clouds or outer space with their flight.

 

[Fezzih_007]

A rematch thread is redundant.
Rematch threads in my opinion should only be done if someone gets new stuff that might change the fight or if their scaling meta in VSBW has change. Doing it so soon seems pointless.

I did hear Sora page is outdated (Which i don't doubt) So that's probally some feats that are missing. I think. Maybe. Most likely. Possible.
Don't trust me on that one.

 

[Deidalius]

I did hear Sora page is outdated (Which i don't doubt) So that's probally some feats that are missing. I think. Maybe. Most likely. Possible.
Don't trust me on that one.

Well then rematch this when it's updated. Doing it right when this thread ends is pointless in my eyes ;p

 

[Passersby]

So that's probally some feats that are missing. I think. Maybe. Most likely. Possible.
Don't trust me on that one.

that's a lot of doubt lmao

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

I did hear Sora page is outdated (Which i don't doubt) So that's probally some feats that are missing. I think. Maybe. Most likely. Possible.
Don't trust me on that one.

I'm pretty sure KH is one of the most up to date verses on the Wiki, I don't see it missing anything major enough to require a rematch thread on a skill thread that hasn't even concluded yet.

If we're talking outdated, Touhou's right there lol

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I'm pretty sure KH is one of the most up to date verses on the Wiki, I don't see it missing anything major enough to require a rematch thread on a skill thread that hasn't even concluded yet.

If we're talking outdated, Touhou's right there lol

50,000 whole words worth of outdated (and growing).

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I'm pretty sure KH is one of the most up to date verses on the Wiki, I don't see it missing anything major enough to require a rematch thread on a skill thread that hasn't even concluded yet.

If we're talking outdated, Touhou's right there lol

As someone who has been involved with the work of updating the verse I have some severe doubts about it being one of the most up to date verses on the Wiki since there have been some big delays with updating many of the profiles accordingly to the revisions in the past and if this is really true, then I'm worried about the state of the Wiki.

 

[Bobsican]

Even I have to admit there's quite a bit of work to do even with current CRTs.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

If y’all don’t think KH is well handled / up there in terms of verses on this wiki then idk what to say honestly.

It’s not as insanely scoured as say, Kirby or Sonic/Archie Sonic or a major shonen verse, but its very, very well off.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

If y’all don’t think KH is well handled / up there in terms of verses on this wiki then idk what to say honestly.

It’s not as insanely scoured as say, Kirby or Sonic/Archie Sonic or a major shonen verse, but its very, very well off.

I do not necessarily know all the details regarding other verses but at the very least I believe that there is quite a bit that can still be done for Kingdom Hearts.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Alright, grace has ended. Bob can a rematch if he wants, but unless he actually brings new points in Sora's favor to the table, then I don't really see the point.

 

[Bobsican]

I'll probably make a new thread tomorrow.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I'll probably make a new thread tomorrow.

but unless he actually brings new points in Sora's favor to the table, then I don't really see the point.